Woodstoves...AND insurance companies

[dayvsea]

New camp has two wood stoves installed. Chimney was designed for them in the 80's. Thimbles in the side of the chimney, brick pad for Fisher stove, brick course covering wall to 4'. Same thing in the basement opposite side of chimney. Separate flue. I'm getting a boatload of pushback when I try to get a policy written by various agents. Not that they have mentioned anything specific about this particular setup, just the targeting of wood stoves in general..Our last camp had a Franklin from 1890, used it everyday in the colder nights/sessons for 30 years, issue free.. Anyone have any info that would be helpful?
http://imageshack.com/a/img924/3914/HEXdd4.png

[Kamper]

I'm surprised you are getting so much hassle on this since so many people burn wood in the home for practical or aesthetic reasons.

A friend of mine had a fireplace in their condo. It was required to be inspected annually for it to be covered. If you can get that certification, it may be easier to get coverage. You will need to have it cleaned before the inspector can do their job.



Good luck!

[Nagigator]

From what I can see of your photo, the left side of the stove does not have enough heat proof surface, I/e brick to satisfy the current standard of at least 12 inches. Has someone for the insurance company come to the house to inspect the stove?

[dayvsea]

Nagigator, No not yet...I also have not spent enough time in the new camp do any measuring yet...But no, no-one has been in to do any checking yet..
http://imageshack.com/a/img922/3333/eEawKU.png

[Not to Worry]

Are the insurers saying they will not insure you or are the simply saying a wood stove "could be" an issue. Seems to me a properly installed stove and proper chimney would get you insured. I guess that brings me back to my question of what is the exact push back you are getting since it does not seem you have been declined.

[Nagigator]

Have you had the building inspector or the Fire Chief issue you a permit for the stove? That will go a long way with your insurer.

[thinkxingu]

My insurance had to know the stoves were installed correctly, which required showing pics and clearances. Looking at your picture above, the stove is clearly too close to combustible surfaces. When the stove was installed--pre-EPA period, for sure--clearances and requirements were different.

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[tis]

I seem to remember being asked if we had a wood stove by the insurance company. Sort of like do you have (certain) dogs, a slide, a diving board, a trampoline-those are things that make insurance companies nervous. But they al vary. Some seem to care more than others. Lots of people have wood stoves and have insurance. I think the companies have gotten very tough in recent years though.

[dayvsea]

Are the insurers saying they will not insure you or are the simply saying a wood stove "could be" an issue. Seems to me a properly installed stove and proper chimney would get you insured. I guess that brings me back to my question of what is the exact push back you are getting since it does not seem you have been declined.
Right now they are saying that it could be.. But If they don't like the clearances or such.I don't know where that leaves me.. I'm not going to redesign the house at this point..

[thinkxingu]

Right now they are saying that it could be.. But If they don't like the clearances or such.I don't know where that leaves me.. I'm not going to redesign the house at this point..
Clearances can usually be dealt with fairly easily.

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[dayvsea]

My insurance had to know the stoves were installed correctly, which required showing pics and clearances. Looking at your picture above, the stove is clearly too close to combustible surfaces. When the stove was installed--pre-EPA period, for sure--clearances and requirements were different.

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thinkxingu, Are you talking distance to the brick wall, or from the stovepipe?

[garysanfran]

Which would have been a major hassle. I felt it was installed professionally, to the code back in the early 80's. They said that if I can produce the install specs. They would consider it. The mfg. is Jotul, so I went to Energy Savers, Meredith, and Ben was able to produce a digital copy the original install manual for my exact stove. I submitted a very well written appeal pointing out that every one of their concerns was a non-issue, along with photos. I won.

[thinkxingu]

thinkxingu, Are you talking distance to the brick wall, or from the stovepipe?
Looks to me like there's not nearly enough space to the left of the stove (facing it), and the front and to the side of the pipe might be issues.

As mentioned above, all stoves today, and a fair number pre-EPA, come with clearance requirements. There are ways to help those along, though. For example, my hearth (once a fireplace) has plenty of space left and right of my stove, but I had to make an insulated pad to meet front clearances and needed to use the manufacturer's surround kit to meet top clearances. (Would've been easier to use an insert--wouldn't have needed the adaptations--but didn't want fan noise and power.)

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[dayvsea]

Which would have been a major hassle. I felt it was installed professionally, to the code back in the early 80's. They said that if I can produce the install specs. They would consider it. The mfg. is Jotul, so I went to Energy Savers, Meredith, and Ben was able to produce a digital copy the original install manual for my exact stove. I submitted a very well written appeal pointing out that every one of their concerns was a non-issue, along with photos. I won.
Forwarned is forearmed..Thanks Gary, I will have mine at the ready.. I found a booklet online for the Fisher baby..

[dayvsea]

Looks to me like there's not nearly enough space to the left of the stove (facing it), and the front and to the side of the pipe might be issues.

As mentioned above, all stoves today, and a fair number pre-EPA, come with clearance requirements. There are ways to help those along, though. For example, my hearth (once a fireplace) has plenty of space left and right of my stove, but I had to make an insulated pad to meet front clearances and needed to use the manufacturer's surround kit to meet top clearances. (Would've been easier to use an insert--wouldn't have needed the adaptations--but didn't want fan noise and power.)

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OK thinkxiingu, I will look into after market..Maybe double insul pipe, and see what other shielding can be used to help in my quest..Thanks for the heads up..

[Kamper]

If they don't like the clearances, ask how much clearance they'd like. A few more courses of bricks and a foot of chimney duct might make it all go away.

Unless you know what you need, you could rebuild the house and still not get it right.

[thinkxingu]

OK thinkxiingu, I will look into after market..Maybe double insul pipe, and see what other shielding can be used to help in my quest..Thanks for the heads up..
In addition to making the stove fit clearance requirements (and thereby being safer to use, which is the more important goal), you might wish to clarify what your insurance's holdup is.

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[Rusty]

Nagigator, No not yet...I also have not spent enough time in the new camp do any measuring yet...But no, no-one has been in to do any checking yet..
http://imageshack.com/a/img922/3333/eEawKU.png

Floor clearance on the left side needs 18" before meeting code. Therefore you will probably have trouble getting insurance.

[dayvsea]

Thanks Rusty...I'll see what my options are, masonry-wise, as well...

[MAXUM]

Just an FYI about 6 years ago my insurance company sent me a notification indicating that they were instituting an increase in my premium due to the fact I have a wood stove in my house. They did not ask or seemingly care whether or not it was installed correctly, inspected, permitted when installed, or anything. However I would bet that if it were not installed correctly or to code they have the option to refuse coverage of damage that may occur as a result.

[ishoot308]

New camp has two wood stoves installed. Chimney was designed for them in the 80's. Thimbles in the side of the chimney, brick pad for Fisher stove, brick course covering wall to 4'. Same thing in the basement opposite side of chimney. Separate flue. I'm getting a boatload of pushback when I try to get a policy written by various agents. Not that they have mentioned anything specific about this particular setup, just the targeting of wood stoves in general..Our last camp had a Franklin from 1890, used it everyday in the colder nights/sessons for 30 years, issue free.. Anyone have any info that would be helpful?
http://imageshack.com/a/img924/3914/HEXdd4.png

Is your new camp on an island?? If so that would make more sense at least to me for a reason why they are giving you a hard time. Honestly never really heard of anyone on the mainland getting hassled like that for coverage because there is a wood stove in the house....

Good luck,

Dan

[Kamper]

Last resort...

Seal off the flue (Bricks and mortar). Send them pic's of that. Install an electric fireplace.

[upthesaukee]

Here's a thought: Google your woodstove, download the manual, look at the installation requirements, and then measure your clearances. Also check the national fire codes for woodstove installations, what is termed combustible and what is non-combustible, and the measurements they require. Most local jurisdictional requirements follow national code.
Wish you luck. We heat with wood, primary source, with oil as backup, and love it. Had insurance company inspect it several years ago, when we changed from a Fisher cast iron to a Hearthstone. (They did want to re-inspect a few years ago "to make sure we had the proper clearances. " . I sent them a couple of pictures showing that the stove was still in the same place, that we hadn't moved it, that we'd be happy to accommodate the inspector, but felt the need to spend money on an inspection just wasn't there. Got an acknowledgement to the email saying they were reviewing. Never heard another word and we still have the same company.

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[dayvsea]

Thanks guys..It just seems harder and harder to get off the grid doesn't it? (Insurance and tax wise as well) :laugh:

[garysanfran]

Now illegal in many places for new construction. Look at the fossil fuel debate in general.

However, you already have one grandfathered. Don't let the bast"*ds win.

First, let them reject your current installation and make them detail the reasons. Then take each reason...one-by-one, and rebut their position. There are a lot of opinions in this thread that are just personal opinions and not the official position your insurance company may, or may not take. 18" floor clearance? Where did that come from? Heat rises.

And, I'm still not sure you have a problem. Has your company made any demands before they will renew?

I found that there are many insurers that do not understand vacation and resort geographies. I had one rejection because I didn't have enough neighbors that could see my place directly. I argued that I'm not the only place whose owners sought both privacy and a wood burning stove, and was still able to get insurance.

Insurance companies will take a conservative position, but if someone can show them a way to protect their buts, they'll opine on the side of profits.

[SIKSUKR]

Sprinkler system might do.:laugh:

[dayvsea]

Sprinkler system might do.:laugh:
I send them a pic of me in a shower cap drenched.. I tell them, "Just did a test, we're good here!"

[Descant]

If all you're wearing is a shower cap, it's almost certain they won't insure you. LOL

[SAB1]

Have you had the building inspector or the Fire Chief issue you a permit for the stove? That will go a long way with your insurer.

This. Once the Fire Dept approves the setup you will be fine.,