Pex Piping for Lake water system

[LIforrelaxin]

So I am getting ready to re-institute my lake water system to provide water to the camp. The reasoning for this is that sharing a well, has come at to high a cost, and as I didn't pay for the well, and really have no financial stake in it, I am opting, to stop sharing my neighbors well, and will go back to lake water.

To that end while I still have the pump and pressure tank saved, I don't have the line to the lake anymore. So I need to get a new main line a foot valve. I was looking at doing this with PEX tubing, and thought I would see if anyone has done this. I figured it might be better and easier to work with then the heavy black pipe that we used to use.

[jrc]

I'm pretty sure that PEX is not any good if exposed to sunlight. Most plastics need protection from the UV in sunlight. PEX is made for indoor use and doesn't hold up.

[Just Sold]

Pex is for use inside a building and not rated for exterior use. Because of the exposure to UV sunlight and run across the ground or underground where it could be crushed you need the heavy walled black water line that you used before.

[BroadHopper]

Everyone is right, Do not use pex piping where it will be expose to sunlight. What I have done in the past was bury the pex pipe between the pump house and down to several inches below the low water line. I usually leave the pipe in year round relieving the pressure during the winter months by dismounting the pipe at the pump. After several years, you will fine the pipe will harden and crack. I simply replace the pipe with a new one.

I never had trouble with the ice in the winter. I believe it freezes inside as well as outside the pipe so there is even pressure, preventing the pipe to burst.

[HUH]

You really should use the black polyethylene piping. I cant remember all the reasons but they are many

[secondcurve]

Everyone is right, Do not use pex piping where it will be expose to sunlight. What I have done in the past was bury the pex pipe between the pump house and down to several inches below the low water line. I usually leave the pipe in year round relieving the pressure during the winter months by dismounting the pipe at the pump. After several years, you will fine the pipe will harden and crack. I simply replace the pipe with a new one.

I never had trouble with the ice in the winter. I believe it freezes inside as well as outside the pipe so there is even pressure, preventing the pipe to burst.

BH: I think the fact that you are replacing the pex pipe every several years indicates you are using the wrong material........

[Sunrise Point]

We had a well dug last fall and removed our lake line. I saved the black plastic pipe and would be happy to give it to you if you want it. If I remember correctly, we have about 25 or 30 feet.

[MAXUM]

A standard 1" black plastic tubing is commonly used, matter of fact that is what most wells use between the well pump and the house. You can get that stuff in the plumbing section of any home depot or lowes. It's not terribly expensive for a 100' roll.

One suggestion I would make to you is if you're going to do this help yourself out and make the system easy to break down or put together. I just ordered some cam locks a few male/female pairs with plugs (for winter time) so when I assemble or disassemble my water lines I'm not screwing stuff together, messing with clamps, or otherwise needing tools. These things are awesome, female on one end of a break, male on the other. They just lock the levers in place and pin insert lock pin, instant water tight connection. Easy and hassle free. Well worth the investment. I swore when I took my water system apart this past fall I would fix it so it wasn't such a pain in the neck next time. They are inexpensive and well worth the money, here's where I got mine..

http://www.globalindustrial.com/g/plumbing/hoses-and-hose-fittings/hose-couplings/polypropylene-camlock-fittings

Best thing I ever bought can't wait to fix my system for good.

[ApS]

A standard 1" black plastic tubing is commonly used, matter of fact that is what most wells use between the well pump and the house. You can get that stuff in the plumbing section of any home depot or lowes. It's not terribly expensive for a 100' roll.
• To extend my line beyond recent bottom turbulence, that's what I bought 20 years ago—and used all 100-feet of it out into the lake. (...and leave it in all winter...)

• Remember that polypropylene pipe will float, and attaching a brick every six feet will keep it from being a nuisance—to fishermen. ;)

• I used a nylon cable-tie and a twist of heavy copper wire on each brick. Only the copper has endured the years. :confused:

• 'Wish I'd known of this brick's availability back then:

http://calbricks.netfirms.com/brick.california8.jpg
("Hollow Partition Tile")

:look:

More:
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3401

[MAXUM]

That's a great idea, those look like clay flue tiles they use in chimney construction. You can get concrete footing blocks that are similar in design as well that may stand up better over the long haul submerged in water.

[fatlazyless]

As everyone knows, water expands about 10% when it turns into ice, and will crack the standard black 1 1/4" diameter black poly flex tubing. For more money, one can get a high-pressure black poly tubing that expands and does not crack when the water inside it freezes and still works with no leaks after the ice thaws out.

Gilford Well sells a waterline heated cable made either by Pyrotennax or now by Tyco that includes a hi-pressure black poly tube of, for example, 100 or 150' length, an inside-the-pipe heated cable, and a 220-volt control box with a thermostat sensor that will turn the heated cable inside the black tube on & off depending on the thermostat which gets placed into the yard outside your cottage. A set-up for 125' runs on 888-watts.

And, of course, the pump and water tank needs to be kept in a heated space, like in the kitchen near the kitchen sink or somewhere.

I installed one of these systems back in 1992, and it has worked perfectly ever since because I am the greatest waterline installer ever, ever, ever, in the world history of water!:D:laugh: So, if I can do it, maybe you can too, but I seriously doubt it?;)

[Pine Island Guy]

I just ordered some cam locks a few male/female pairs with plugs (for winter time) so when I assemble or disassemble my water lines I'm not screwing stuff together, messing with clamps, or otherwise needing tools.

MAXUM - those look very cool (and not expensive either!). Please let us know how they work this year, could be a real time saver (not to mention the frozen fingers, heat gun, etc).

Another trick that Misty Blue taught me was to install a boiler valve close to the water's edge... great to drain down in the fall and then hook up a small pump to in the spring and prime the entire system.

Think ice out!!! -PIG

[MAXUM]

MAXUM - those look very cool (and not expensive either!). Please let us know how they work this year, could be a real time saver (not to mention the frozen fingers, heat gun, etc).

Another trick that Misty Blue taught me was to install a boiler valve close to the water's edge... great to drain down in the fall and then hook up a small pump to in the spring and prime the entire system.

Think ice out!!! -PIG

I can tell you they are awesome, I put the same things on my uncle's irrigation system a few years back which is essentially the same application a small jet pump pulling from the lake. I had to unscrew fittings with pipe wrenches and re-do them plus t-tape in the spring, what a pain in the you know what. I found those cam locks and said BINGO, now it takes me all of about 5 minutes to break down the system and drain the lines, just install where you want or need a quick break point. Snap the plug on the end for the winter and no critter problem. What is really cool is I put a T in the output side of the jet pump on a short vertical tube with another cam lock so I can easily back fill the pump to prime it. It's the bomb. What used to take me an hour now takes about 10 minutes start to finish to get the system reassembled and back running.

[LIforrelaxin]

Well of course I used the regular black pipe, and everything went swimmingly... I found a heat gun which I already had, helped with those horrible connections that I used to remember struggling with.

The biggest aggravation of the project was wondering why I had ever stopped using the system...

[dayvsea]

I'd be interested in hearing more about 3 way connection at lake end, so I can prime system..And a small pump to connect to it... (Buckets from lake...Not so fun:()

[Slickcraft]

I'd be interested in hearing more about 3 way connection at lake end, so I can prime system..And a small pump to connect to it... (Buckets from lake...Not so fun:()

Did that this year after reading about it on the forum last year. Worked real slick. We had a kitchen faucet open and when water came out we shut the faucet and the boiler valve at the lake end, shut the small pump off, turned on the main pump and watched the pressure dial ramp up. Done.

[dayvsea]

Slickcraft can you supply a link to the valve?

[Slickcraft]

Slickcraft can you supply a link to the valve?

Here is a link at Lowe's:
http://www.lowes.com/pd_248921-33599-M75QT+3/4_0__?productId=3660022&Ntt=boiler+valve&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dboiler%2Bvalve&facetInfo=

I also bought a T to insert into the 1" black plastic pipe that the "boiler drain valve" screwed into.

Most small pumps have a male garden hose type fitting as does the boiler drain valve. To connect the two you will need a short section of hose with a female fitting on each end such as a washing machine connection hose.

BTW when I asked the Lowe's plumbing clerk in training for a boiler drain valve he was sure that they did not carry such an obscure item. Then the senior clerk walked over and right away led me to the item, then spent a few min talking to the in training guy.

[dayvsea]

Yah, at HD, you need to skip the 15 year old clerks and go right to the head 17 year old managers! :D Thanks, Slickcraft, I'm on the hunt for parts!

[dayvsea]

Hay Fatlazyless.. "a high-pressure black poly tubing that expands and does not crack when the water inside it freezes". Do you have a brand/supplier on this? I think I can use the speedy disconnect in the above posts, and your tubing, and leave the business end in the lake..Maybe... Let me know when you can..

[dayvsea]

And Maxum.. Do you have local supplier on your speedy disconnects? I can see the product on the site, but am having a hard time visualizing how they work, or what I'll need. Kinda need to have them in front of me and monkey with for a bit! :D

[CaptT820]

Dayvsea-
You can buy any size camlock at FW Webb. You can also get the camlock in aluminum, steel, stainless, or HDPE. I use them on my pump connections to my rain barrels. Speaking of which, a rain collection system after ice out would get you enough water to prime any system from above and not have to haul or pump any water from the lake.

Can someone explain the exact process of extracting water from the lake? It seems as though the way to go is to extend 1.25" black poly tubing to a depth of 10-15 ft below the surface and hold it down every 5-6 ft with some type of ballast. What height from the bottom should the tubing intake be placed at? Does the intake require a special screen/filter? What size pump would be required to pump from the lake up a 50-ft hillside (approximately 65 ft of total vertical rise)? I assume that the pump would be placed inside the camp/house? We are looking at building a new place on an island that is undeveloped, so I am trying to understand as many topics as possible prior to starting development.

Thanks

[SIKSUKR]

No pump,no matter what size can lift(suction) water more than 33 ft.You would need something like a pump house down near the lake.

[ApS]

No pump,no matter what size can lift(suction) water more than 33 ft.You would need something like a pump house down near the lake.

I was disappointed in my little utility pump's lack of performance to push lake water up far enough to prime the water pump under the house. (Located about 12 feet above the lake).

A family member closed the cottage last October, and forgot to open "my" hose bib just a foot under the lake level. 'Turns out, the black tubing survived an especially bad winter, so I put the same utility pump into a 5-gallon bucket and sent the priming water backwards down to the water pump from a hose bib installed at the rear of the cottage. (See photo—cold water valve opened first).

The water pump was primed in a few seconds, so then I opened the 30-gallon hot water heater valve, and that was filled in a very few minutes. 'Ran the water pump for a few minutes to discharge all that old priming water and was all set after about 15 minutes.

Fastest "opening" of the cottage, yet!

Even more amazing is that water heater, water pump, black tubing, utility pump, (paired) foot valves and hose bibs are still intact and working since a re-do in 1993.

:)

Note...

Save some effort by filling the 5-gallon bucket in the Fall, and add some antifreeze. They'll tell you antifreeze "isn't to code" in a home's water system, but it makes the job go much easier than dragging 5 gallons of water from the lake.

:look:

[CaptT820]

APS-
Thanks for the detailed response. What type of pumps and/or pressure tanks are people using in their houses/camps? Just trying to get a nice detailed setup for a pump house. Thanks

[ApS]

The pump/tank combo from the 1993 re-do is labeled "Jacuzzi". It's a standard US-made iron pump with a ½-horsepower rating. The tank itself is attached to the pump, and only as big as a bread basket. After twenty years, it still looks new. :)

Google can't supply me with what the "Jacuzzi" looks like, but it's similar to this image:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTc2WDEwMjQ=/z/wc8AAOSwq7JT2ULX/$_35.JPG

There may be little choice today, except to buy a pump made in China.

The previous pump was a "tankless" Gould, which was about the size of a soccer ball. I liked it for its "instant-on-full-pressure" feature, but don't know what became of it. :confused:

Now that I think of it, I have five electric water pumps. (And just sold a gas-driven water pump). What I've learned from experience is that the pressure-sensor should be US-made. In other locations, I've purchased new pump/tank combos for as little as $35. (Stainless steel housings!) The pumps worked OK, but the pressure sensors were a foreign design, and not reliable from day-one. :( (And not Chinese).

The tank should be drained down for the winter, and it self-pressurizes itself when primed and plugged in. The supplied hose bib near the bottom of the tank makes it easy, but I should have located the valve where I could reach it!

:emb:

I'll take a photo.

:look: