E15

[Grady223]

E15 is on the way and there's nothing good about that. Interesting article from Boat US. Be careful if you fill your boat (or PWC) up at the gas station while trailering it.

http://www.boatus.com/pressroom/release.asp?id=616

[robmac]

Had a couple of conversations with both dealers and manufacturers and both felt this spring will show weather certain additives are doing the job. Since you can no longer purchased we'll see if mingling additives and or not using them will cause major issues. I guess spring will tell.

[ApS]

Be careful if you fill your boat (or PWC) up at the gas station while trailering it.
BoatUS says marine engines aren't warranteed against E15, but I bought a lawnmower in January—and returned it immediately upon opening the box. A label stating "Not Warranteed for E15" was attached to the handle.

While this manufacturer may soon make a change to E15-friendly fuel systems, there are likely many other recently purchased gasoline-powered items with components that can be expected to be degraded by E15. :(

[lawn psycho]

This tells you how little pull the boating industry has on the EPA.

Probably just created an entire new product line for the boating industry as some kind of "conversion kits" that can handle E15 will start showing up in boat services bays at a marina near you.

[BroadHopper]

After I read this study:

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/the-true-cost-of-corn-ethanol/

it made me realized ethanol does more harm than good. Does anyone realize where Brazil and Indonesia is getting the land to grow corn? Shocking.

So all those environmentalists are shooting themselves in the foot. :rolleye1:

[SteveA]

Interesting site. Not too many located in NH. :(

http://pure-gas.org/

But to the fella looking for a new business in this thread,

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11688

maybe an idea? I think lot's of folks would pay a premium for "real gas".

[NoRegrets]

The ethanol subsidy is more than 7 Billion dolllars. Can you believe we the tax payers are paying for this? It has been extended through the 2011 budget year. I was hoping to have it stopped.

[Steve Di.]

I owned a truck that would typically achieve from 16.5 to 17.0 average miles per gallon. When ethanol arrived on the scene, I noticed my fuel economy dropped to 14.0 average m.p.g.

If the intent of ethanol is to reduce our oil consumption, then I think they missed the mark and are exacerbating the problem. While using ethanol my fuel economy dropped by 18%, even though I was buying 10% less oil per gallon of fuel purchased. By doing the math, I realized my OIL consumption increased by 8%

The only people benefiting by this program is the government by the taxes reaped by the increase in consumption, and the farmers who are receiving the government subsidies.

One other thing, per mile driven, I believe I am also pumping more pollution into the atmosphere. This program is a loser no matter how they try to spin it.

[SteveA]

better than this.

http://blog.nj.com/njv_linda_stamato/2011/03/agricultural_subsidies_and_the.html

A pox on all of the Politicians. Left and Right.
As long as our government is owned, lock stock and barrel, by big farming, big oil , insurance companies and Wall Street we simply don't stand a chance. :(

Sadly, the boating special interest don't have enough "yank" to get anything done about the problem.

[AC2717]

I owned a truck that would typically achieve from 16.5 to 17.0 average miles per gallon. When ethanol arrived on the scene, I noticed my fuel economy dropped to 14.0 average m.p.g.

If the intent of ethanol is to reduce our oil consumption, then I think they missed the mark and are exacerbating the problem. While using ethanol my fuel economy dropped by 18%, even though I was buying 10% less oil per gallon of fuel purchased. By doing the math, I realized my OIL consumption increased by 8%

The only people benefiting by this program is the government by the taxes reaped by the increase in consumption, and the farmers who are receiving the government subsidies.

One other thing, per mile driven, I believe I am also pumping more pollution into the atmosphere. This program is a loser no matter how they try to spin it.

I have a 2002 truck and the same with me, I cannot get over 13.2 mpg at all. when I bought it used, before the ethanol, I was getting up to 18mpg. sometimes more on the highway. Even more crazy, I had a complete tune up a couple of months ago and still no improvement.

[Blue Thunder]

I owned a truck that would typically achieve from 16.5 to 17.0 average miles per gallon. When ethanol arrived on the scene, I noticed my fuel economy dropped to 14.0 average m.p.g.

If the intent of ethanol is to reduce our oil consumption, then I think they missed the mark and are exacerbating the problem. While using ethanol my fuel economy dropped by 18%, even though I was buying 10% less oil per gallon of fuel purchased. By doing the math, I realized my OIL consumption increased by 8%

The only people benefiting by this program is the government by the taxes reaped by the increase in consumption, and the farmers who are receiving the government subsidies.

One other thing, per mile driven, I believe I am also pumping more pollution into the atmosphere. This program is a loser no matter how they try to spin it.

I went to great lengths to try and figure out what was going on with my '04 truck and the drop in mpg a couple of years ago. After tons of research and a whole lot of diagnosis that I wasted time on, turns out it was E10. I'll leave the politics out for now because that will turn into a rant.....

BT

[Rusty]

E15 is on the way and there's nothing good about that. Interesting article from Boat US. Be careful if you fill your boat (or PWC) up at the gas station while trailering it.

http://www.boatus.com/pressroom/release.asp?id=616

I got the below information from this website (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ethanol_fuel_mixtures):

"In October 2010 the EPA granted a waiver to allow up to 15% of ethanol blended with gasoline to be sold only for cars and light pickup trucks with a model year of 2007 or later, representing about 15% of vehicles on the U.S. roads. In January 2011 the waiver was expanded to authorize use of E15 to include model year 2001 through 2006 passenger vehicles. The EPA also decided not to grant any waiver for E15 use in any motorcycles, heavy-duty vehicles, or non-road engines because current testing data does not support such a waiver. According to the Renewable Fuels Association the E15 waivers now cover 62% of vehicles on the road in the US, and the ethanol group estimates that if all 2001 and newer cars and pickups were to use E15, the theoretical blend wall for ethanol use would be approximately 17.5 billion gallons per year. EPA is still studying if older cars can withstand a 15 percent ethanol blend.
As EPA waiver authorize but does not require stations to offer E15, a practical barrier to the commercialization of the higher blend is the lack of infrastructure, similar to the limitations suffered by sales of E85, as most fuel stations do not have enough pumps to offer the new blend, few existing pumps are certified to dispense E15, and there are no dedicated tanks readily available to store E15. Also some state and federal regulations would have to change before E15 can be legally sold. The National Association of Convenience Stores, which represents most gasoline retailers, considers that the potential for actual E15 demand is small “because the auto industry is not embracing the fuel and is not adjusting their warranties or recommendations for the fuel type." One possible solution to the infrastructure barriers is the introduction of blender pumps that allow consumers to turn a dial to select the level of ethanol, which would also allow owners of flexible-fuel cars to buy E85 fuel."

[Steve Di.]

Interesting! It seems the resistance to E-15 is growing, mainly due to infrastructure issues.

Maybe this idea will die on the vine.

[LIforrelaxin]

I went to great lengths to try and figure out what was going on with my '04 truck and the drop in mpg a couple of years ago. After tons of research and a whole lot of diagnosis that I wasted time on, turns out it was E10. I'll leave the politics out for now because that will turn into a rant.....

BT

Your not the only one, I was seeing wild swing in my gas usuage when E10 first came out. Turns out for a while I was filling up about 50% of the time at a non-ethanol pump.. That unfortunately is not the case any longer.

As for E15, At least for a while, hopefully stations will carry both E15 and E10....

[VitaBene]

I love my diesel powered truck!

[Steve Di.]

I love my diesel powered truck!
I traded in my truck for a Jetta TDI (diesel). I love the car and appreciate its 50+ MPG economy on the highway.

I have noticed my fuel economy drops by approximately 10% during the winter. I realize that fuel economy in the winter is affected by weather and temperature, but I believe the refineries are adding something to the fuel that contributes to the drop in economy.

[brk-lnt]

I traded in my truck for a Jetta TDI (diesel). I love the car and appreciate its 50+ MPG economy on the highway.

I have noticed my fuel economy drops by approximately 10% during the winter. I realize that fuel economy in the winter is affected by weather and temperature, but I believe the refineries are adding something to the fuel that contributes to the drop in economy.

It's a change in the fuel mixture, colder temps usually provide better milage, all other things being constant.

[VitaBene]

I traded in my truck for a Jetta TDI (diesel). I love the car and appreciate its 50+ MPG economy on the highway.

I have noticed my fuel economy drops by approximately 10% during the winter. I realize that fuel economy in the winter is affected by weather and temperature, but I believe the refineries are adding something to the fuel that contributes to the drop in economy.

The winter blended fuels include anti-gelling agents that effect the mileage. I see my mileage drop from 17 average to 15.5 in the winter.

Another factor for me is the warm up time- I don't like cold cars!

Unfortunately, the rest of my vehicles, with the exception of the Kubota are gas powered. Ethanol:mad:

[Steve Di.]

The winter blended fuels include anti-gelling agents that effect the mileage.....
I understand even the low sulfur diesel they are selling doesn't produce the same fuel economy as the old diesel fuel.

There is an emblem in my car that states I can ONLY use ultra-low sulfur fuel. I guess bio-diesel is even out of the question.

[robmac]

I was speaking today with a rep from Exxon/Mobil and he was explaining to me that their engineers were very concerned about mixing of the additives and a chemical reaction that can cause worse damage than the Ethanol itself.I asked which ones would mix without an issue and his reply was that none of them should be mixed. I also asked what they would recommend and his response was that they can't recommend any product but when pushed he said " I use Startron " so I guess I'll be sticking with that and gas that has it added. JMHO for what it's worth

[Steve Di.]

Is Startron a fuel stabilizer?

[robmac]

Yes it is,itprotects against phase separation which is one the worst thing you deal with when using Ethanol enriched fuel. What happens is the ethanol reaches saturation point {it's absorbed the maximum amount of water it can carry} then drops to the bottom of the tank where the fuel p/u is. It is then brought into your fuel delivery system damaging everything it contacts.Not an easily or cheap thing to fix.

[AB_Monterey]

Read this last month:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/food/2011-02-09-corn-low_N.htm

[Cal]

When my boat engines where built in 2003 they were designed for 89 oct. MTBE blend fuel and dynoed at 647 hp. A few years later, due to a vacuum leak on the intake manifold, I melted a piston at the same time E10 was being introduced. In the interest of saving money after a rebuild, I suggested tuning the new engine for 87 octane. After a few hours on a dyno and many trial and error "pulls", we wound up with 661 hp on 87 oct E10:eek:. We then matched the tune on the other engine and saved about 10 cents a gal. even though it uses a little more of what we are being "forced" to use.;)

[AllAbourdon]

I love my diesel powered truck!

This is why i am shopping for a used turbo diesel right now

[nhhick]

This is why i am shopping for a used turbo diesel right now

make sure its rated for at least a B20 biodiesel blend cause thats the next things to realy start changing

[bigdog]

Is it a NH State mandate that all gasoline dealers sell at least E10 rated fuel?

If so, does this also apply to Marine dealers, selling boat fuel ?
I thought I recalled several marine dealers on the Lake, where you could still purchase non-ethanol gasoline?

If true, could someone provide those marina names. Would love to eliminate ethanol in my boat, as it's caused me many issues and money.

Thanks,
BD

[AC2717]

Is it a NH State mandate that all gasoline dealers sell at least E10 rated fuel?

If so, does this also apply to Marine dealers, selling boat fuel ?
I thought I recalled several marine dealers on the Lake, where you could still purchase non-ethanol gasoline?

If true, could someone provide those marina names. Would love to eliminate ethanol in my boat, as it's caused me many issues and money.

Thanks,
BD

CHannel Marine in the channel sells ethanol but it is blended with that Valve-tech additive, seems to be fine in my 23 year old gal

[Dave R]

Plain old gasoline needs a 14.7:1 air to fuel ratio (by mass) in our engines. Ethanol contains some oxygen and requires less air so the proper air to fuel ratio for ethanol is 9:1. If my math is correct, you'd need 6% more fuel to get to the proper air to fuel ratio with E10, and 9% for E15.

Modern car engines have closed loop fuel injection and will adjust the air to fuel ratio on-the-fly based on the oxygen content in the exhaust. Boats engines, even those with fuel injection (except the catalyst equipped models, as far as I know) don't have the ability to adjust air to fuel ratio automatically. They run open loop and simply calculate the ratio with a fixed table that injects a specifica mount of fuel for a specific amount of air. What this means is that on E10, we are running 6% lean and on E15 we'd be running 9% lean. This is going to affect HP for sure, and potentially engine longevity since lean conditions cause excessive heat.

Has anyone ever had a ECM re-programmed with a richer air to fuel mixture? I'm thinking I'd like to do this on my Mercruiser 7.4 MPI engine, if we get stuck with E15.

[MDoug]

Last season a fuel line burst inside the engine cowl of my outboard. First time that happened to me. A few friends have suggested that ethanol mix may have deteriorated the line. Several say they replace fuel lines every couple of years now.

[robmac]

I am going to call Arizona Speed & Marine and see if they can do that for my PCM.

[Dave R]

I am going to call Arizona Speed & Marine and see if they can do that for my PCM.

Please post the details when you know them.

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

I have a 2002 truck and the same with me, I cannot get over 13.2 mpg at all. when I bought it used, before the ethanol, I was getting up to 18mpg. sometimes more on the highway. Even more crazy, I had a complete tune up a couple of months ago and still no improvement.When my F250 was new (2001), I was only getting around 11-11.5 mpg but it's got the 5.4L engine and 4.10 axle ratio. About the same time the E10 showed up, I had installed a K&N intake kit, shortie headers and a Flowmaster cat-back exhaust. My mileage has improved slightly to 13-13.5 mpg. Oh, and I replaced the spark plugs last year. Read into that what you want. :rolleye1:


CHannel Marine in the channel sells ethanol but it is blended with that Valve-tech additive, seems to be fine in my 23 year old galI don't know about this year but last year West Alton Marina was also selling ValvTech-treated fuel.

[robmac]

Shep Browns has been adding Startron for a couple of years now. It helps me as I have used it for about 4 years now.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

FYI, according to the site pure-gas.org. there are 3 gas stations in NH that sell gas without ethanol. The one closest to Winni is Freedom Market on Rt. 25 just before the Maine border.

[Winnisquamguy]

I came across this article and thought I would share it.

http://www.boatus.com/pressroom/release.asp?id=769