Black Cove

[SAMIAM]

Oh noooooooo....hear we go agin.The Dept of Safety held a hearing on Friday to consider a request to ban rafting on Black Cove. No one showed up to object. Sschaar....where were you when we needed you? Imagine those greedy shorefront owners depriving you of your rights.Better get busy and organize one of your "floating block parties" to teach them a lesson.According to the paper,those hateful,selfish loons were the cause of it.

[Scott]

I have relentless, unstoppable support for the loons. Ban rafting.

[Lakegeezer]

There is an opportunity for us to comment to the state on yet another rafting ban on Lake Winnipesaukee. I'm against it, but no matter what your opinion is, this is a good chance to voice it to the state.

There is an article in the Citizen Online, http://www4.citizen.com/September2004/09.25.04/news/meredith_09.25_04d.asp
reporting on a hearing that occured to ban rafting on Black Cove. In that article is an email address and phone number where you can voice your opinion. In the article, it describes good reasons for the ban. It is near a Girl Scout camp, and the growth of rafting has caused them to use the cove less.

My opinion is that there should be a single rule. Either rafting is or it is not allowed - anywhere on the lake. Each time a cove is shut off to those that are looking to raft for the afternoon, it concentrates the rafting traffic into fewer and fewer coves. Why should any cove be special enough to push the traffic on others? Winnipesaukee is getting "built out", and there are too few coves left that are without homes. There are may valid reasons for not wanting rafters hanging outside your home for the afternoon, but I fail to see why banishment should be applied in a piecemeal fashion. All or nothing!

[madrasahs]

I'm for the loons -- and having loon nests are probably the best hope the cove residents have.

I attended a Tuftonboro meeting like this one -- where all 20 residents who troubled themselves to appear at the town hall were unanimous in demanding restrictions (No Wake). It seemed like a "slam dunk" for the Tuftonboroians. Later, after other, "More-Important-Opinions" were collected by the Commission, the measure ended up failing!

Rafting on essentially "residential lakes" has been increasingly restricted as rafting parties become more egregious and bawdy.

Lake Norman, for example, has restricted rafting as lakefront residents tire of lewd or illegal behavior. http://charlotte.bizjournals.com/charlotte/stories/2004/08/16/focus4.html

(Lake Norman is a lovely North Carolina lake with lots of "fingers" -- like Winnipesaukee.)

[frank m.]

Dear Fellow Forum Members,
If you care about the future of loons on Winnipesaukee, please send an email supporting this petition to the Commissioner of Safety, by way of
safety-hearings@safety.state.nh.us
I would also appreciate it if you could please cc that email to me at
patenter@metrocast.net
Make sure the petition includes your name and address, or it will not be counted. If you have had some link to or history with Black Cove, or to the protection of loons in general, please explain that. If you have witnessed the outrageous activities in Black Cove this summer, please describe those experiences. But try not to be too emotional or wordy.
We in Black Cove and surrounding region support the right of boaters to “raft” and do not aim to take that away. Lake Winnipesaukee is obviously a recreational lake and will always be one. We know that our region’s economy depends on boating. Although we do feel that our rights to use and enjoy the Cove and Lake are being infringed by these rafters, that is our problem to fight and we do not expect outside support over that issue. But the loons need more support than we alone can muster. We will face strong opposition from organized boating associations, most based out of state, and from boating rights activists whose last concern is the threatened common loon. In fact, the lake would be a better place for many of these people if loons were extirpated from the lake altogether. But Winnipesaukee has almost 50,000 acres, with thousands of other quiet coves, hundreds of shallow areas where nobody yet resides, and many popular destinations for partying groups to go. Almost none of those are loon nesting sites, loon brooding sites, or loon sanctuaries, and none are like Black Cove.
Black Cove is less than 7 acres. That’s less than 14 hundred thousandths of the Lake. Yet it is the number one loon producer in the state, by a large margin. It is not only the “rafting” that is threatening these loons, it is also the illegal activities that the rafters bring with them, that are a natural and unavoidable extension of rafting, and that the Marine Patrol has proven unable to stop. They have tried, but the shape and location of the Cove make it nearly impossible to the MP to approach without being seen and to witness the behavior that we see from within the Cove. Behavior that CANNOT continue if the loons are to remain. In fact, it was the Director of the Marine Patrol who suggested that we file this petition, after proving unable to protect the cove through enforcement of existing laws.
Consider that there were only nine successful loon pairs on Winnipesaukee this year, including Black Cove’s. And that the “batting average” of our few territorial pairs is only 0.48 chicks per year over the last decade or so. This means that when two loons have been lucky enough to make it through their first four years and return to mate up on Winni, and are even more lucky enough to secure one of the nineteen possible loon territories on the lake, even then, they still have less than half of a chance to actually lay an egg, hatch it, and raise it to fledge. THE BLACK COVE PAIR PROUCED 18 CHICKS OVER THE LAST DECADE. THAT’S AN ASTOUNDING 1.50 "BATTING AVERAGE" OVER THE SAME PERIOD. This is more than 3 TIMES the average, and is so far above the next that it makes the value of Black Cove to the future of loons on Winnipesaukee just indisputable. Black Cove is far and away the most prolific and most important loon producer and loon sanctuary in the entire state.
And this is typical year after year. While the other territories hope to raise one chick each summer, we get concerned in the years, like 2004, when the Black Cove pair does not raise two. The following link to some data posted by an LPC summer intern
http://www.unity.edu/sarihou/2002/gcolligan/map2.jpg
shows that in 2002, as is usual, there were only 7 successful breedings on Winni. As is also usual, Black Cove produced two chicks again that year. That’s 2 of the Lake's 8 fledglings that year, or ONE QUARTER of Winnipesaukee’s entire loon production!!! Notice that the other six successful nests (yellow dots) exist only in the deepest reaches along the northeastern shore of the Lake. Black Cove is the only successful sanctuary in the entire southeastern ¾ of the Lake. Do you think you should have to go to Lee’s Mill to see a loon chick next year?
The Common Loon is NH’s state bird, yet we typically raise less than ten chicks on the state’s biggest and most suitable lake. This is why it is so solidly planted on the threatened species list. LESS THAN TEN CHICKS ON A 50000 ACRE LAKE! Surely the state can set aside the most productive 7 acres from activities that this bird can simply not tolerate.
We who live in and around Black Cove have grown to limit and time our recreation to avoid adverse impact on these loons. We have sacrificed many of our rights for the benefit and well-being of these loons. We have invested hundreds of hours towards these birds. We claim no special rights over the cove, but just want to see it remain the rare and special place that it has become, to see our investment in these birds protected. We do not want to see all of our hard work and sacrifice wasted so that a few selfish boaters can practice their right to party in a loon sanctuary.
The rafters who have recently begun to frequent Black Cove are going to ruin this cove’s ability to harbor loons in very short order. One more year like this one will surely be the last for loons in Black Cove. The rafters bring with them jet skis and ski boats and water ballons. They bring with them illegal activities that the MP cannot prevent or stop. Litter accidently blows off their boats and sinks to the bottom where the loons feed. They drink and play loud music from early morning until after dark, and surely must be peeing in the tiny shallow cove all day long. If anyone of a truly open mind had witnessed the behavior of this past summer, then they would not have any argument over this petition….even the most staunch supporters of boating rights and rafting.
I think any opposition to this petition that is based on an unwillingness to surrender boating rights even in this tiny loon cove can only serve to show the true and selfish face of those who put their right to party wherever they wish over something so precious as the survival of a loon chick. I rafted for years before we moved to Black Cove. But I would never have even considered rafting in a loon sanctuary, or being so bold as to argue for my right to do so. And in my day, neither would anyone else. Anyone who argues against this petition, and thereby argues in favor of dropping anchor in the middle of a loon sanctuary, the state’s most prolific and important loon sanctuary, should be ashamed.

Please email to the commisioner to support our effort.

Frank Marino.
Black Cove, Meredith

[Coastal Laker]

Perhaps I missed something here... From the tone of the Citizen article and some posts on the forum, it would seem the objective is to make the boats go away. How does a no rafting zone do this? With all the various restrictions that come with them, doesn't a no-rafting zone just spread the boats out? I am very much for protecting the environment and wildlife; I just don't see the goal being reached with this action. I foresee the same boats spread all over the place instead of tied together. And don't forget that the definition of a raft is three or more boats tied together, not two - unless they pencil in an exception to how the state defines a raft.

Additionally, some will argue that a no rafting zone doesn't discourage boats from anchoring in that area: rather makes for a big "X marks the spot" on a chart to indicate great places to anchor.

Unfortunately, if you ask me what alternatives there are, I would have to say none that will appease everybody. I guess it will boil down to whatever will most benefit the cove habitat. I certainly am not knowledgeable enough to determine what that is.

Just my two cents.

[Miss Cow Island]

Frank,
Thanks for posting this important information. One of the successful loon nests is in a little, unnavigable 'cove' that's surrounded by my property.
We've had the honor of having loons nest there for the past three years. Have had 4 chicks hatched in total. Unfortunately, this year's chicks didn't survive, but we are looking forward to next year. Will definitely send an email in support of the rafting ban.

[Sschaar]

It's just a duck.
And if you really cared about the ducks, sorry, Loons, maybe we should ban rafting and you should move out of Black Cove.
Give em real piece and quiet. :)

[frank m.]

With all the various restrictions that come with them, doesn't a no-rafting zone just spread the boats out?

I guess you would have to see the whole picture to understand. Individual boaters and pairs have not been the offenders. Everyone who has looked closely at the situation agrees that no-rafting status will provide the best relief available and will likely be enough to save the birds.

[Scott]

Dear Fellow Forum Members,
If you care about the future of loons on Winnipesaukee, please send an email supporting this petition to the Commissioner of Safety, by way of
safety-hearings@safety.state.nh.us
I would also appreciate it if you could please cc that email to me at
patenter@metrocast.net
Make sure the petition includes your name and address, or it will not be counted.
What an excellent and informative post. I will most definitely send an email.

[frank m.]

Just a reminder that today is the last day to submit favorable comments to the Department of Safety about the petition to make Black Cove a No-Rafting Zone.

Please send an email supporting this petition befeor 5PM to the Commissioner of Safety, by way of safety-hearings@safety.state.nh.us
I would also appreciate it if you could please cc that email to me at
patenter@metrocast.net
Make sure the petition includes your name and address, or it will not be counted.

If you are not in support, your comments should be sent next week ;)

[Lakegeezer]

The ban on rafting in Black cove was approved. Lots of good reasons, but its still a squeeze on those who want to use the lake. Which cove will fall next?

[Sschaar]

I guess with all these " No rafting zones " , the cops will be out in force, all two of them. No doubt the local enforcment will get the funds needed to cover these additional responsiblities. How many boats did you say use the lake?

[jrc]

Where is Black Cove?

[Lakegeezer]

I guess with all these " No rafting zones " , the cops will be out in force, all two of them. No doubt the local enforcment will get the funds needed to cover these additional responsiblities. How many boats did you say use the lake?
The no-rafting cove properties are no doubt worth more. The taxes on the extra valuation could funded an observer.

[Silver Duck]

LG

As Frank M and Coastal Laker pointed out, the ban won't prevent anyone who wants to anchor in Black Cove either singly or in pairs from doing so.

Lord knows, rafting bans haven't prevented a "whole raft" :laugh: of boaters from enjoying the West Alton sandbar or Braun Bay!

I don't see where we boaters have lost much of anything from this, and you've probably seen enough of my views concerning boater's rights in other threads to know that I'm right touchy on that subject! :D

Silver Duck

[mcdude]

click here (http://www4.citizen.com/October_2004/10.06.04/news/meredith_1006_04a.asp)

[Sschaar]

Lakegeezer, you really believe what your writing. Payed observer! Really.
Just amazing.

[BroadHopper]

I wish they would just let us find another spot to raft if they ban rafting on Black Cove. I am a firm about protecting the loon habitat but let's protect our ability to raft! :)

[Ski Man]

So what you're saying is that you find your "right" to throw a party in one particular cove to be equal in importance to a threatened animal's right to breed? That sounds a bit arrogant.

[Sschaar]

Hey ski man lets take your thought process one step further.
I'll give you your point, that it's important to allow other animals the right to survive. My point is, that people living in homes on these islands, driving their boats back and forth to the mainland, walking and driving ATV's around the island, and installing swim platforms, aren't distubing the loons ?
These people are only out to protect their own interests and their using the loon issue to sell it. I'm sure there's s one or two indivuduals who actually have the bird's interest at heart, but the rest of them own property, and they want to restrict everybody else from crowding their space and they'll go to any extreme to accomplish it.
Look at it for what it is. :)

[Ski Man]

My issue had more to do with Broadhopper's wording and general outlook than the issue of the cove. It reminded me of someone else writing in to Time magazine about how we shouldn't worry about the possible extinction of great cats in California and the west, it was more important that people be allowed to live as they chose. I disagree with that outlook.

As for rafters and the bay, I don't care what some of the residents' resons for supporting it may be, I'll always side with the wildlife over a few boat-owners' rights to throw a party.

[PROPELLER]

I agree with protecting wildlife & I love loons. My gut also tells me that many times people supporting these no rafting areas only have their interests in mind, not wildlife. Having said that, I will paint a broader perspective beyond Winni to point out what I think happens sometimes in these situations & points to a comment Schaar made. I remember reading about a situation at the Vail ski resort where environmental activists tried to use wildlife to their advantage. Vail wanted to expand some of the ski terrain & these activists tried restrict it on the basis that there was some Lynx that would be endangered. It was later shown that the Lynx had not inhabited the area in over 100 years. I am sure there are many other similar situations where this kind of thing happens.

I do not know alot about specific Loon needs & maybe some one can educate me but what is the difference between say 20 boats at anchor not rafting which is allowed in a no rafting zone & say 5 separate rafts of 4 boats each? How are those rafts more detrimental to the Loons than the 20 individual boats at anchor? Sounds like the property owners have their interests in mind, not the Loons

If no rafting zones continue to pop up around the lake the only no rafting zone will be the broads. I am sure that will be fine with the property owners around the lake I don't that is right either.

[frank m.]

These people are only out to protect their own interests and their using the loon issue to sell it...they want to restrict everybody else from crowding their space and they'll go to any extreme to accomplish it.

people supporting these no rafting areas only have their interests in mind, not wildlife.... Sounds like the property owners have their interests in mind, not the Loons.

Do either of you two know the facts related to this matter? Do you know any of the people you speak about? Have you ever been there? Do you have any basis for making comments like this, or are you just a couple of busy-bodies sitting at your computers with nothing to do except throw darts? Can't you find something better to do?

[SAMIAM]

Far be it from me to stir the pot........but just a little question for you folks who do a lot of rafting.......what do 6 people do for bathroom facilities who spend 5 or 6 hours drinking and swimming in a boat with no pottie? Just curious

[frank m.]

Samian,
Of course we all know where their pee ends up, nobody even tries to argue that is not happening. But as incredible as this might sound, late one Sunday afternoon a couple of summers ago, as I sat on my dock, a human turd drifted in! Some rafting slob had jumped from his boat into the water, pulled down his draws, and deficated in the cove! I had to scoop it out in a paper cup and dump it down my toilet. When I tell people about this, they think I am making it up. That's why I didn't even mention it in all of my testimony to the DoS. It was just too unbelievable and I thought they would think I was lying. But I'm sure that people like Schaar would argue for their right to poop into the lake. After all, it is their lake too. We the greedy shorefront owners are just being selfish if we object to such behavior.

[PROPELLER]

To Fank M: My post asked why a raft is more detrimental than individually anchored boats. Its early yet but no one has provided an answer & you have not either. If a raft is not more detrimental to loons than individually anchored boats then the loons were used as an excuse by the supporters for their own interests. Were the individuals who made no rafting in Black Cove an issue property owners in Black Cove or was it a loon preservation or wildlife group? It would be alot more credible if The Loon Preservation Society was behind it with scientific evidence that rafting is detrimental to the survival of loons in Black Cove.

To Samian & Frank M.: I know it happens but all the people I raft with myself included have self contained heads with waste tanks that are pumped out at any of the many facilities on the lake. COME ON GUYS! Are you telling me that all shorefront owners, their children & guests get out of the lake when swimming to pee inside. You don't have to answer because I know the answer.

Just remember all you shorefront owners, you contribute to degradation of lake just as much as boaters.

P.S. Frank, I see you have nothing better to do also.

[Lady Di]

I usually stay away from these discussions but I want to say this to Propeller.

Why is it that you ask if Frank M. has nothing better to do, than sit on his dock enjoying the lake? I thought there WAS nothing better to do. Isn't that why you're all there? If waste floats up where it is not supposed to be, and he rids the lake of it, then all this time later makes a comment, in an appropriate thread, why do you ask him in that tone, as though you think he should mind his own business?

This is all getting so ridiculous.
Used to be people had respect for the lake and for each other.
Oh.......and I remember when people had respect for the loons, as well.
Before I left there in 1984, people were discouraged from even CANOEING too close to nests. And the MP were watching.

[Lady Di]

I usually stay away from these discussions but I want to say this to Propeller.

Why is it that you ask if Frank M. has nothing better to do, than sit on his dock enjoying the lake? I thought there WAS nothing better to do. Isn't that why you're all there? If waste floats up where it is not supposed to be, and he rids the lake of it, then all this time later makes a comment, in an appropriate thread, why do you ask him in that tone, as though you think he should mind his own business?

This is all getting so ridiculous.
Used to be people had respect for the lake and for each other.
Oh.......and I remember when people had respect for the loons, as well.
Before I left there in 1984, people were discouraged from even CANOEING too close to nests. And the MP were watching.

[PROPELLER]

To Lady Di: Did you even read this thread? My P.S. comment to Frank was in response to his sarcastic comment to me asking if I had nothing better to do than sit at a computer. Obviously, he was also sitting at a computer when he responded to my post.

With regard to the incident he mentions I commend him for doing what he did but that does not mean all rafters are slobs. To the contrary, most are law abiding just looking to enjoy the lake like everyone else. Just because they enjoy it differently than someone else does not mean its wrong.

As my first post indicates I have nothing but respect for the lake, the loons & wildlife in general. However, if individuals are using wildlife as an excuse to limit the activities of others for their own personal agendas & those activities are not detrimental to the survival of species of wildlife then shame on them!

For any of you who happen to know about the A.P.A.(Adirondack Park Association) I agree with their concept of forever wild. There should be places like that. Just remember its not practical today to think that way all for all open spaces. There has to be some give and take.

[PROPELLER]

The article in the Citizen quoted Mr. Vogel as saying that there is a perfect record in the last 10 years of the loons producing chicks. If rafting is detrimental to their survival & rafting has been as prevalent as the residents of the cove say then how could there be such a success rate of the chicks? Because rafting has nothing to do with their survival?

It seems to me that the residents were using the loons to put 1 more nail in the coffin so to speak because they do not like the "skyline look" Well I don't like all the oversized mansions called summer cottages with all the shorefront trees they cut down, the large lawns they fertilize etc. Can boaters petition to force property owners to return the shorefront to its original condition?

Its amazing to me how shorefront owners can pontificate about how boaters are degrading the lake when they themselves contribute as much if not more to the degrading of the lake. Once they get their own little piece of the pie they want to shut it off to everyone else.

[PROPELLER]

Come to think of it, maybe the shorefront owners should leave. If not for them, maybe the Loons wouldn't need an artificial platform to rear their young. The Loons could nest on natural mother earth where all those beaches, boats & docks are now.

[MAXUM]

Great topic of discussion.

What the heck, I'll chime in on the subject.

It's a pretty simple fact as Prop pointed out that rafting in this cove has had no adverse effects on the loons ability to propagate in this area. So how can this possibly be used as an excuse to close down this cove? Easy because the loon is protected that's why. Looks like the old spotted owl argument is being used for adverse reasons. Sorry but that is not a good excuse to prevent rafting in this area. This sets a very bad precidence for others to exploit the exact same excuse to limit or eliminate boat traffic from other areas of the lake.

Now with that being said, I do like the loons and would prefer that thier existance is not put at risk due to lack of areas to nest. At the same token, Winnipesaukee is not the only lake in the state where they can successfully nest either. Prudence should be applied here so that areas can remain open to both boaters and loon nesting. IF and I do mean IF any restrictions are to be placed to protect the loon nesting areas around the lake, I would feel much better having the F&G make that determination and let them set the limits if any for certain areas of the lake. That would protect those areas for the time necessary fo the loons to do thier thing (hopefully successful) and once the birds are done reopen the area to boaters.

I think the bigger picture here is that landowners are more interested in protecting thier shorefront, and to some degree I sympathize with them. If you have made an investment of hundreds of thousands of dollars in water front property, combined with the re-occuring tax bill that goes along with that it's a whole lot of money to be spending. I would be furious if I had to deal with a bunch of wild and obnoxious boaters who have zero consideration for anyone other than themselves. Nobody should have to put up with that either. However law enforcement needs to do a better job at dealing with these issues when they are informed of them.

It's sad that the result is the cove being shut down to rafters, but on the other hand this NEVER would have happened if people would just behave themselves too. That's not to say that everyone who rafts is a problem, but enough are to end up with a situation like this.

I would have more respect for those wanting to ban rafting if they had just come out and put the real issue on the table instead of hiding behind the loon nesting position. I think that if all the property owners around that area had put together a reasonable and sound case the same result probably would have been decided upon. I find it shameful to claim that this is in the best interest of the loons considering that the facts simply prove that the rafting activites had no impact what so ever.

Finally before I end my rant here, to the land owners, I understand and respect where you are coming from, but please do not insult us with your concern about the loons, clearly that talking point is woefully flawed. To the boaters, well let this be yet another in a long list of examples of what happens when you all go out there and act like a bunch of idiots. A little respect for others goes a LONG way, and if some respect had been shown in the use of this area, the cove would be still open to rafting.

I do think that rafting should be dealt with as a whole, across the entire lake, not just individual areas. Either ban it outright or not.

-MAXUM :)

[frank m.]

Maxum and Propellor,
You two are right. You have exposed our sinister plot. I can't understand how you were able to crack our secret code and figure out our real intent. Perhaps Schaar was anchored "right under our kitchen windows" again and listening in. We, the two residents of the cove, had thought we were sufficiently camouflaged by all of the "hard evidence" and "expert testimony"...by all of the support from persons and organizations completely removed from the cove and only interested in the birds...by all of the conservations' facts and figures and the LPC's historical data...by all of the years of research proving that loons could never continue to thrive as they have under the pressures of such heavy human activity as began in the cove this year. You know the real story, that loons have actually only succeeded in the cove by eating the fritos and potato chips dropped in the water by the considerate rafters. And this year's sudden blitzkrieg of fifteen to twenty boats at a time could have only made things better for the loons. Like W, we sat in a room and concocted all of this "loon" stuff in a dastardly plan to increase our property values. Actually, we have been secretly raising captive loons for ten years and releasing them in the cove just before the census each year in anticipation of this event. I feel so naked.

Propellor,
It's silly for us to debate this matter on the forum when it is clear that you know so little about the specifics of this situation. Why don't you drop me an email with your phone number and I will call and explain things to you. My email address is patenter@metrocast.net. I don't want anyone looking at this so generally, and from such a distance, without the underlying facts, and thinking that there is any merit to the arguments you make. As I said earlier in this string; "I guess you would have to see the whole picture to understand. Individual boaters and pairs have not been the offenders. Everyone who has looked closely at the situation agrees that no-rafting status will provide the best relief available and will likely be enough to save the birds."

[SAMIAM]

We have a pair of loons in our bay every spring that produces two chicks every year.Sometimes they survive and sometimes they do not.It is distressing to watch boaters who do not know any better,approach them for a close look.The adults become frantic and the chicks cannot dive to escape at this early stage.So,Frank,good job and congratulations.....it's a big lake out there.....we can certainly spare a few bays for our feathered friends .

[Sschaar]

Just for the record, I have a 22 foot pontoon with a Porta potti that gets used, alot. Anybody who has a wife and three young children can atest to it's usage.
As far as rafting is concerned I think once we had had three boats tied together. A bunch of times two toons tied up. My friend also has three young children, a wife, and porta potti. But most of the time we are a rafting party of one.
The issue here is privatization of a public lake. Goverment, in their constant thirst for more money keeps on selling off, rezoning, or restricting land use to settle it's cravings for more money. Once it falls into private hands, the goverment taxes the you know what out of them. In return the land owner feels they are entitled to more.
When they realize they can't get what they want, they try to "back door it" by using Loons, Noise, Water rights, Excessive parking lot lights, and rafting. If I missed something I apologize. The list is endless.
I'll say it again, Frank M, if your so concerned about the loons maybe you should move out also. Make the Island "off limits" for all.
No you won't do that. Your the self anointed protecter of the Loons.
The Lake is as it should be. Public. Neither you or any other of your shorefront landbarons can change that. You can try to restrict boaters, but their shear numbers are overwelming. Pretty much hopeless they way I see it.
One other thing I want to address.
I get the impression here that if more then two boats are tied up it must be one wild and crazy party. Being a toon owner, I live to throw the anchor and sit back and enjoy the sun. I don't see all these wild and crazy parties you all are talking about. I'm sure it happens, but I find it hard to believe it happens as much as you seem to think it does.
But I guess I should just chalk it up as another feeble attempt to make it look worse then it is.
With that in mind, I'm done.
Hey next time you look out your kitchen window and there's a pontoon anchored right outside with three screaming kids and a wife yelling at some poor guy, wave to me. :)

[Tyler]

I understand the frustration of property owners having rafters in front of their places, perhaps before they purchase property they should be given a fact sheet of what to expect when purchasing property on the lake.

Also I thought the lead issue was to blame for the decrease in loon production? That has been resolved with the removal of the lead, now rafting is to blame... hmmmmmmm, makes you wonder what the next back door effort is?

[PROPELLER]

Frank, My first post asked why rafters would impair the loons ability to nest & flourish as opposed to individual or 2 boats together at anchor. Instead of simply providing the answer you decided to accuse me of not knowing the situation. Thats why my 1st post asked that question, to help us on the Forum understand. In a second post I asked the question again, still no answer. So what is the answer? This is the 3rd time I have asked the question. I suspect there is no formal documented evidence.

I also find it interesting that a cove resident spearheaded this petition to protect one of the most important & successful areas on the lake for Loon nesting. Why not Fish & Game or any of the Loon or wildlife organizations. I am not throwing barbs, just making an observation.

For you to generalize all rafters as noisy, drinking slobs who pee in the lake & not show concern for the lake & its wildlife is so far from the truth. You yourself said you were a rafter so where did you pee? I know where myself & all my rafting friends do as I am sure many others do, in the self contained head with the waste tank on the boat that gets pumped out.

My 1st post made some observations & asked a simple question directly related to the Loon issue in Black Cove. It did not throw barbs at any poster or anyone residing in Black Cove. It was you who took it personal & to the next level.

And no, I will not give out my e-mail or phone # to strangers for obvious reasons. You can answer on the Forum for all to read & understand if you wish.

[frank m.]

Propeller,
My original posts, and follow-ups, were very informative. I think most on the Forum, whom you pretend to represent, would agree. There are also laws and legal procedures that you can investigate yourself on the Internet to learn that the suggestions you make are not possible and the statements you make are not sensible.
I think there are very few on this forum like you, who, although they have never even heard of Black Cove before this, just have nothing else to do with their time but to make arguments for the sake of making arguments and to speculate about the intent of persons they do not know.
My offer stands to anyone who wants to discuss this matter in person...my phone number is 279-0159. But I am no longer going to play keyboard tennis with those like you who just want to make baseless and defamatory accusations under the anonymity of the forum, and to pretend they are proceeding this way to benefit the silent majority. If your intensity over this issue is sincere, you should want to give me a call. Don't be afraid, I am not going to hurt you. I am not the nameless faceless sniper here. But if you are unwilling or afraid to do that, then please stop playing this sophomoric forum game and move on to something else. Have you read the string about the bears?
Frank Marino

[Sschaar]

Propeller
It obivious that Frank feels his position is is so righteous that it's undebatable.
That he knows what's best. And what's best is to restrict usage of the lake from it's owners, the public. How dare anybody question me or my motives.
That's what Frank thinks.
He's right about one thing, we should move on to another topic, Frank's just a waste of time. :laugh: