Lake level and markers [Archive] - Winnipesaukee Forum

Rattlesnake Gal

09-14-2004, 08:38 AM

Here is an excerpt of the DES press release regarding the 2004 fall drawdown of the lakes.
Not included in this schedule is Lake Winnipesaukee. Unlike the other lakes in this schedule, Lake Winnipesaukee is not purposely drawn down in the fall. Instead, each year on Columbus Day, the releases from Lakeport Dam are reduced from a normal minimum of 250 cubic feet per second (cfs) to a flow between 30 and 50 cfs for a period of up to two weeks to allow for maintenance of the dams and hydropower facilities on the Winnipesaukee River. The flow of 30 to 50 cfs is the minimum flow needed to maintain the downstream aquatic life during this period.

By the middle of the fall, Lake Winnipesaukee is, on average, 15 inches below its springtime full level due to evaporation and releases from the lake that have occurred over the course of the summer. As a result of the reduction in the amount of water released from the dam after Columbus Day, the lake level does not drop for the remainder of the month of October and is generally maintained at this level through the month of December. Depending on the amount of snow on the ground in the winter, the lake level may be lowered further beginning in January to a depth of two feet below the normal full level.
DES Press Release (http://www.des.state.nh.us/press/press090704.htm)

madrasahs

09-14-2004, 08:55 AM

Rattlesnake Gal

09-14-2004, 09:04 AM

Looks just awful! :(

Outlaw

09-14-2004, 11:12 AM

1) What "good" is done by the water released from Winnipesaukee?
Hydro-electric? Drinking water for Massachusetts? Recreation?

2) Why do swim-spaghetti-sized white foamy lumps mostly appear in September -- after the boating stops, and Winnipesaukee water starts to drain or evaporate?

3) Anybody notice the dull black "bathtub-ring" since the level has dropped on Winnipesaukee these past two weeks? And how "clean" the shoreline appears below it?
A1:
If you haven't been on this lake long, you would not remember about 6 six years ago, the whole lake was declared a no wake zone due to extreme amount of snow, causing an excessive amount of run off from the mountains forcing the lake level well above full lake. Not only was this an issue for boaters, of all types, but property owners as well. Natural erosion, property flooding, homes suffering flood damage and wild life around the lake loosing the natural elements for building homes/nests as much of it was under water. The lake has what is referred to as a "full lake" level and it is dropped in the fall to accommodate the spring melt and run off from the mountains.

A2: Boating doesn't stop in September on this lake, it decreases due to all the vacation boaters and snow bunnies leaving for the season or not visiting as frequently.

A3: That dull black ring as you refer to it as, is there every year when the lake is lowered. Is this ring you're speaking of on your property?? Around the western side of the lake the ring we have is more yellowish in color and is created from pollen. It's possible the ring you have is run off from your septic system indicating its failing.

To answer the original question of this thread: Many local and weekend boaters use the Mount Washington's last cruise as an indicator when they take their boat out for the season (this year it would be October 23rd). It's not a bad idea to keep an eye on the long term weather forecast to see if there are any unexpected temperature drops that could cause freezing for a day or more (water in the boat motor(s) could freeze and cause damage). But if you're talking about now or October 8th, you should be fine with October 8th, and like I mentioned, keep an eye on the weather and if you are using a marina, chat with them to see when they can take the boat out (based on their schedule).

Rob

09-14-2004, 11:42 AM

Excellent post Outlaw-

I seem to remember that in 1984 the lake was also at an unusually high level.

From the previously posted link:

Lake drawdowns are conducted each fall to reduce winter ice damage to shoreline properties and to reduce spring flooding. Drawdowns also give property owners an opportunity to conduct any necessary repairs to their waterfront property

http://www.des.state.nh.us/press/press090704.htm

The flow of 30 to 50 cfs is the minimum flow needed to maintain the downstream aquatic life during this period.
Another reason for lowering the lake in the fall is to prevent the spring snowmelt runoff from overwhelming the rivers downstream. (Winnipesaukee River>Pemigewassett>Merrimack, if I remember correctly) These rivers would otherwise flood and erode their banks, removing nutrients from the land, and adding them to the river, which causes problems for the wildlife living in the river. Much of the dirt settles back to the bottom when the river widens out, which then requires dredging of river bottoms to keep the channels open. Dredging is very controversial, as there are associated environmental problems.

It's hard to predict in advance how much water to release. Personally, I think that they (the NH DES) do a pretty good job of managing the lake level.

Rob

Knomad

09-15-2004, 12:07 PM

We have a slip at MVM and usually take our boat out after Columbus Day. If you are concerned about the Graveyard, go around Melvin Island instead.
As the water drops, it gets very shallow across the sandbar outside MVM.
Two choices here - go across on plane with the I/O up sightly or go at no wake speed with the I/O up.
Looking at the Lake Level Chart under Bizer.com, the water is dropping faster than last year.

KTO

09-15-2004, 01:52 PM

When does Marine Patrol remove navaids? (Again, primarily concerned with the above referenced location.)

The marine patrol doesn't ever take any markers, number bouys, or navigational helpers (whatever you wanna call these things) out of the water. They leave them in all winter and replace any broken ones in the spring.

PROPELLER

09-15-2004, 02:13 PM

Actually Outlaw, I remember the no wake restriction in 1998. I had my bow rider in Back Bay in Wolfeboro. Although the spring runoff may have contributed it was the extensive rain we received in mid June that caused the lake to rise as much as it did, hence the no wake restriction.

There was plenty of good boating after ice out in April, May & the beginning of June before the rains came. It was mid July when the restriction was lifted. The no wake restriction was 4-5 weeks.

Tyler

09-15-2004, 05:13 PM

the incident was a result of a very heavy rain over several days that caused the no wake for the entire lake for a couple weeks, nothing to do with winter snow melt.

madrasahs

09-15-2004, 09:01 PM

A1:
If you haven't been on this lake long, you would not remember about 6 six years ago, the whole lake was declared a no wake zone due to extreme amount of snow, causing an excessive amount of run off from the mountains forcing the lake level well above full lake. Not only was this an issue for boaters, of all types, but property owners as well. Natural erosion, property flooding, homes suffering flood damage and wild life around the lake loosing the natural elements for building homes/nests as much of it was under water. The lake has what is referred to as a "full lake" level and it is dropped in the fall to accommodate the spring melt and run off from the mountains.
A2: Boating doesn't stop in September on this lake, it decreases due to all the vacation boaters and snow bunnies leaving for the season or not visiting as frequently.
A3: That dull black ring as you refer to it as, is there every year when the lake is lowered. Is this ring you're speaking of on your property?? Around the western side of the lake the ring we have is more yellowish in color and is created from pollen. It's possible the ring you have is run off from your septic system indicating its failing...

Maybe I should have sharpened my questions (since I can't improve readership qualities of others).

1) What "good" is done by THE WATER RELEASED from Winnipesaukee?
Hydro-electric? Drinking water for Massachusetts? Recreation?

2) Why do swim-spaghetti-sized WHITE FOAMY LUMPS mostly appear in September -- after the boating stops, and Winnipesaukee water starts to drain or evaporate?

3) Anybody notice the dull black "bathtub-ring" since the level has dropped on Winnipesaukee these past two weeks? And how "clean" the shoreline appears below it?

OK. My boating tour today disclosed a satin black (scratch dull) "bathtub-ring" for miles and miles, including Rattlesnake Island. I was looking for a scientific explanation. (My "working theory" is petroleum-based deposits. I know...DUH)

There was no yellow ring. The yellow pollen ring appears every year about June 12th, and gradually disappears over July and August.

The lake was "overfull" in 1984 and 1998.

I was here for both, and don't recall a no-wake restriction for 1984. We probably wouldn't have been concerned anyway, as we didn't own (by choice) a boat that would produce much wake.

Outlaw

09-15-2004, 10:06 PM

I was here for both, and don't recall a no-wake restriction for 1984. We probably wouldn't have been concerned anyway, as we didn't own (by choice) a boat that would produce much wake.As I originally stated: six years ago that would be 1998 (also see posts from propeller and tyler); Not only was this an issue for boaters, of all types,
1) What "good" is done by THE WATER RELEASED from Winnipesaukee?Hydro-electric? Drinking water for Massachusetts? Recreation?Thank you for pointing out readership qualities: (In case you missed this link earlier)

"Gallagher said the drawdown releases nutrients into rivers from the lakes and reduces winter ice damage and spring flooding. Lakes usually return to their normal levels by spring." http://www4.fosters.com/September2004/09.09.04/news/reg_co0909b.asp

The lake is your drinking water.
2) Why do swim-spaghetti-sized WHITE FOAMY LUMPS mostly appear in September -- after the boating stops, and Winnipesaukee water starts to drain or evaporate?And your point is ?????
There was no yellow ring. The yellow pollen ring appears every year about June 12th, and gradually disappears over July and August.June 12th came and went, and its still here, and if nothing else has become more evident. I would be interested in reading your pollen reports to see the different effects on the various coves, bays and other locations on the lake.
I was looking for a scientific explanation. (My "working theory" is petroleum-based deposits. I know...DUH)You can choose to be part of the problem or part of the solution, if you're part of the solution you would contact DES if you are genuinely concerned. If you're not concerned, you'll choose to do nothing.

Yesterday was the NH Primaries, I certainly hope you were there, first in line, to cast your vote for the parties which can do something about the issues you hold near and dear. It's one thing to complain about local government, it's another thing to have voted and complain about government. Anyone can complain, but to not have voted and continue to complain -- in my book that translates to "no leg to stand on".

To answer the original question of this thread: Many local and weekend boaters use the Mount Washington's last cruise as an indicator when they take their boat out for the season (this year it would be October 23rd). It's not a bad idea to keep an eye on the long term weather forecast to see if there are any unexpected temperature drops that could cause freezing for a day or more (water in the boat motor(s) could freeze and cause damage). But if you're talking about now or October 8th, you should be fine with October 8th, and like I mentioned, keep an eye on the weather and if you are using a marina, chat with them to see when they can take the boat out (based on their schedule).

islandAl

09-16-2004, 08:43 AM

The marine patrol doesn't ever take any markers, number bouys, or navigational helpers (whatever you wanna call these things) out of the water.

They do take all the lighted markers in after Columbus day weekend. Usually leaving the mooring in place with an old wooden marker.

Just Sold

09-16-2004, 10:23 AM

Outlaw: Yesterday was the NH Primaries, I certainly hope you were there, first in line, to cast your vote for the parties which can do something about the issues you hold near and dear. It's one thing to complain about local government, it's another thing to have voted and complain about government. Anyone can complain, but to not have voted and continue to complain -- in my book that translates to "no leg to stand on". Here Here to Outlaw!

I hope everyone voted! We did on our return from the lake on Tuesday. If you did not vote then shame on you. Not voting to me means you loose the right to complain about those things your voting rights give you.

KTO

09-16-2004, 05:55 PM

I'm not old enough to vote! :)

KTO

09-16-2004, 05:59 PM

They do take all the lighted markers in after Columbus day weekend. Usually leaving the mooring in place with an old wooden marker.

While saying that may be true, and I do believe it, this one who started this thread was worrying about taking his boat out, and I seriously doubt there are going to be markers missing.

By the way, I NEVER knew that the number light bouys were taken out. Is this new since they all were replaced with lights (vs. the half non-light ones)
Glad I know! Thanks!

madrasahs

09-16-2004, 08:28 PM

"Yesterday was the NH Primaries, I certainly hope you were there, first in line, to cast your vote for the parties which can do something about the issues you hold near and dear. It's one thing to complain about local government, it's another thing to have voted and complain about government. Anyone can complain, but to not have voted and continue to complain -- in my book that translates to "no leg to stand on".

How we got to New Hampshire polls from a question about black marks left by the lake's level -- I don't know, but here goes:

I suppose I could have registered at a New Hampshire poll, but like others on this Forum, I'm a Non-Voting Taxpayer.

You don't have to read too many New Hampshire newspapers to realize that students from Massachusetts and other states regularly vote in New Hampshire elections, often countermanding "The Voters' Will" -- locally and nationally.

You also don't have to read very much to realize that New Hampshire is run by Special Interests and their Lobbyists -- often profiteers who don't have New Hampshire's (hence Winnipesaukee's) natural beauty (and other long-term interests) at heart.

No thanks. My voting power -- such as it is -- is best reserved for another state, where mitigations and impact fees can rein in the chainsaws, chippers, pavers, and bulldozers -- and one that has real Enforcement -- not "enforcement on the cheap".

islandAl

09-16-2004, 08:43 PM

Been that way for a real long time. Do not know if the new lights will be any different, doubt it as they can save on 6 months of use and possible danger of being run over by snowmobiles as many of the bouys are.
Sure makes the night trips to the island more of an adventure.

KTO

09-16-2004, 08:52 PM

Sounds like scary fun, navigating in the dark. But hey, you'll probably go in the daytime more often, right? We should definitely be thankful that this lake contains these wonderful light markers in the first place. I mean, where would we be returning from the Weirs Beach fireworks without a light marker at major points. Or where would we be when trying to find where we are in the middle of the knight, where land is the same color as the sky on a moonless/starless night? It seems it would be expensive to replace a light marker every year or two, because of ice damage! It is much better than having to guess that there is a number marker in front of you in the dark, hoping that you're on the correct side! :)

Mee-n-Mac

09-16-2004, 10:09 PM

By the way, I NEVER knew that the number light bouys were taken out. Is this new since they all were replaced with lights (vs. the half non-light ones)
Glad I know! Thanks!

Actually I believe the new orange markers are left in (I recall a picture I have of one surrounded by ice) but the electronics may be removed (? or switched off ?). The old lighted ones were removed completely and replaced for the winter with another buoy.

Skip

09-17-2004, 06:14 AM

...No thanks. My voting power -- such as it is -- is best reserved for another state, where mitigations and impact fees can rein in the chainsaws, chippers, pavers, and bulldozers -- and one that has real Enforcement -- not "enforcement on the cheap".

Wow,

A thread about lake level & markers has digressed into a diatribe with a registered {out-of-state} voter telling us New Hampshirites what is wrong with our method of counting/casting ballots! :rolleye2:

Anyways, those guffaws you heard permeating your walls this morning? It was only me, but thank you for starting my day off with a good laugh. :laugh:

PROPELLER

09-17-2004, 07:38 AM

Mad, don't tell me your a registered voter in Massachusetts, the perfect state that does everything right? It doesn't even have to be Massachusetts, no state has a monopoly perfect government practices. Spare us the holier than thou attitude

madrasahs

09-17-2004, 08:31 AM

Hah Hah Hah :) Massachusetts? :laugh: hee hee hee hee :emb:

The "Big Dig" took longer to dig than the tunnel under the English Channel! And now that it's opened, it's filling up with water!

No, I vote absentee in Florida, a fact I express freely elsewhere on this Forum. Florida's a mess, but it's BIG --something New Hampshire isn't.

The clock is ticking on our hills, our water quality, our quiet, our island chapels, our recreation, our safety, and the quality of life in general.

The "Bay State" provides plenty of ammunition for its detractors -- mostly on News/Talk radio and print media. At least New Hampshire "only" has lobbyists at the helm.

There's only one box to check on Massachusetts ballots.

Massachusetts is run by crooks.

Bubba

09-17-2004, 09:10 AM

We are voting everyday of our lives. Everyday, the way we spend our dollars (or cents) is a vote. From where we buy lunch to where we buy gas. The catholic church is in a pinch right now. Parishiners are voting with their pockets (or lack thereof).

Everyone should vote, in every primary, local, and general election. Even if you have to vote absentee everytime, vote! If you do not vote, don't complain. I wonder how many legal immigrants who never got a chance to vote in their original countries miss an opportunity to vote in the USA?!?!

PROPELLER

09-17-2004, 10:00 AM

Mad, You are correct about Florida. It is a mess. 1. It is the 3rd most populated state but not the 3rd largest in area. 2. most of the population is crowded at the shore lines leaving the inland part of the state sparse. 3. Environmentally Floridians have nothing on NH, the Everglades are being filled in for developement & then they wonder why Alligators are in their living rooms, eating their dogs & why is my house sinking... HEE HEE HEE. 4. Drinking water is becoming sparse because of population. 5. Gated communities popping up all over. 6. Strip malls as far as the eye can see. 7. Fights between environmentalists & developers over new marinas, Manatee free zones & damage to coral reefs & sea grass beds. Just to name a few.

No thank you, I will stay right here in NH for the time being. Maybe the snow & cold winters will keep people moving south.

P.S. I also don't like the Miami Dolphins.

Mee-n-Mac

09-17-2004, 11:33 AM

1) What "good" is done by THE WATER RELEASED from Winnipesaukee?
Hydro-electric? Drinking water for Massachusetts? Recreation?

Yes to all three assuming that you think hydroelectric power, MA drinking and recreation are good things. ;)

2) Why do swim-spaghetti-sized WHITE FOAMY LUMPS mostly appear in September -- after the boating stops, and Winnipesaukee water starts to drain or evaporate?

Don't know, I haven't seen them yet this year. :confused:

3) Anybody notice the dull black "bathtub-ring" since the level has dropped on Winnipesaukee these past two weeks? And how "clean" the shoreline appears below it?

OK. My boating tour today disclosed a satin black (scratch dull) "bathtub-ring" for miles and miles, including Rattlesnake Island. I was looking for a scientific explanation. (My "working theory" is petroleum-based deposits. I know...DUH)

Don't know again but I'll guess it's some marine growth. Not only is it a ring but it's also on the top of my steps that lead into the water. More specifically it's only on those parts that get a semi-regular splashing. It isn't on my dock or other wood parts, at least that I've noticed. It's slippery when wet but not after it dries out. It doesn't wash off with soap and scouring. It does (well it did last year) power-wash off with just H2O and pressure though. If I had a microscope I'd take a scraping and have a look-see. :confused:

Island-Ho

09-17-2004, 01:52 PM

All the lights are removed from the lake, starting after Columbus Day, as stated earlier in this thread. I can confirm that following my winter trip to the islands last winter. This has been done for as long as I can recall, and that's several decades. :)

DRH

09-17-2004, 02:12 PM

Actually I believe the new orange markers are left in (I recall a picture I have of one surrounded by ice) but the electronics may be removed (? or switched off ?). The old lighted ones were removed completely and replaced for the winter with another buoy.All the lights are removed from the lake, starting after Columbus Day, as stated earlier in this thread. I can confirm that following my winter trip to the islands last winter. This has been done for as long as I can recall, and that's several decades. :)
According to the Marine Patrol officer who was guest speaker at our neighborhood association's meeting in August, the PVC markers are left in the lake for the winter, but the electronic lights themselves are removed from their markers in late fall and stored over the winter. The new lights include a solar cell on top which keeps the internal battery charged all summer. I can remember when, before the new-style lights were used, the lights used to start out each summer very bright, but then be barely visible in the fall when the batteries got weak. Now, they are kept charged all summer by the sun. The lights are turned off and put into storage over the winter and then turned back on and returned to their PVC markers in the spring.

Skip

09-17-2004, 06:35 PM

You don't have to read too many New Hampshire newspapers to realize that students from Massachusetts and other states regularly vote in New Hampshire elections, often countermanding "The Voters' Will" -- locally and nationally.

Interesting accusation.

As a lifelong (and fulltime) resident of New Hampshire, one who reads a number of her paper's daily, I can recall no such articles that you claim exist. Anxiously awaiting your links to specific articles to verify your aforementioned condemnation of "the Voters' Will".

You also claim, in your same diatribe, that New Hampshire's government is controlled by lobbyists.

What you fail to mention (or grasp) is that the New Hampshire State Legislature is made up of 400 locally elected citizens from across the State. So many, in fact, that forum regulars and New Hampshire residents probably know personally at least one or more in their representative district. These citizen legislators are elected by their neighbors every two years. Many have been re-elected time & time again by those same neighbors & friends. While no legislator can please every single constituent on every single issue, most do a pretty damn good job for their $100 a year salary, and it is relfected in their longevity. But again, I patiently await more solid proof of your henceforth unsubstantiated claim that all these folks must be on the take.

It is easy to anonymously accuse those who partake of lifestyles and interests different than yours as being conspirators. It is easy to anonymously bash those that devote much of their time & energy trying to serve us in the State Capitol. And it no sport to assail, anonymously, the fine men & women in the public safety field who tirelessly protect us from ourselves 24/7.

But again, you may be exactly right in all your accusations. Therefore, I still anxiously await the factual data that you must be hording to form such all knowing and authoritative positions.

Enlighten us, anonymously of course.... :liplick:

Skip

Outlaw

09-17-2004, 09:48 PM

How we got to New Hampshire polls from a question about black marks left by the lake's levelFor short memories or as a refresher - here's what the original thread question was:
Two questions:

Will the lake have been lowered so much by mid October so as to make navigation overly dangerous? I'm especially concerned about the area extending from through the graveyard (or by Chase's Is.), all the way into Melvin Village Marina.

When does Marine Patrol remove navaids? (Again, primarily concerned with the above referenced location.)
Here's how it got off topic:
1) What "good" is done by the water released from Winnipesaukee?
Hydro-electric? Drinking water for Massachusetts? Recreation?

2) Why do swim-spaghetti-sized white foamy lumps mostly appear in September -- after the boating stops, and Winnipesaukee water starts to drain or evaporate?

3) Anybody notice the dull black "bathtub-ring" since the level has dropped on Winnipesaukee these past two weeks? And how "clean" the shoreline appears below it?To ensure that this is heard Loud and C l e a r, please read slowly:
I suppose I could have registered at a New Hampshire poll, but like others on this Forum, I'm a Non-Voting Taxpayer.In order to register to vote and actually vote you must be a resident.
You don't have to read too many New Hampshire newspapers to realize that students from Massachusetts and other states regularly vote in New Hampshire elections, often countermanding "The Voters' Will" -- locally and nationally.Would love to see your proof (links)of this locally and what I mean by Locally is "The Lakes Regions".
You also don't have to read very much to realize that New Hampshire is run by Special Interests and their Lobbyists -- often profiteers who don't have New Hampshire's (hence Winnipesaukee's) natural beauty (and other long-term interests) at heart.Are you complaining?
and one that has real Enforcement -- not "enforcement on the cheap".Why is it you choose to insult those who serve and protect -- sure hope you are never in need of the Fire Department Rescue Boat, Law Officer, or any Emergency Care....................again I ask, are you complaining????

madrasahs

09-18-2004, 06:24 AM

Here's how it got off topic: The three questions all relate to the emptying of the lake and its present level. (Not so much the markers -- except maybe the dirty ones.)

In order to register to vote and actually vote you must be a resident.

I can vote in NH with only a few changes of paperwork. (And then register at the polls the day of the election).

Anxiously awaiting your links to specific articles to verify your aforementioned condemnation of "the Voters' Will". You also claim, in your same diatribe, that New Hampshire's government is controlled by lobbyists.

Eagle Tribune on NH lobbying:
http://www.eagletribune.com/news/stories/20011220/NH_003.htm

Crux, Union Leader's series:

"The New Hampshire Republican Party's press office confirmed that the party goal is to tighten up election procedures and to prevent students from illegally voting in both their home state and in New Hampshire.

"Dartmouth Young Democrats President Josh Marcuse '04 dubbed the issue decidedly partisan in nature. "Student impact on election outcomes is enormous," he said.

http://www.fairvote.org/righttovote/lane.htm

Skip

09-18-2004, 07:05 AM

Sorry Madrasahs,

You would be well advised to carefully read the sources you quote before offering them up as proof of your alleged conspiracies. :rolleye1:

The Eagle-Tribune article you cite contains no proof whatsoever that legisltors are corrupt. As a matter of fact, one paragraph states:

"...But one factor in New Hampshire that does mitigate excessive lobbying, Bender said, is the 400-member house of Representatives. The House is simply too large for lobbyists to influence every representative on every issue..."

Also interesting is that out of the entire legislature, the writer of the article could only find one single legislator, out of 400, to state his opinion that lobbying in New Hampshire was unfair. Oh yeah, I forgot....this is a conspiracy, right?

Your contention and proof that students regularly and illegally sway the vote in New Hampshire also lacks any credible proof in the article you quoted for that opinion. The Center for Voting and Democracy piece once again only cites the opinion of a single individual, Republican House Speaker Gene Chandler, that students do not have the right to vote in New Hampshire elections. Of course Mr. Chandler, if quoted correctly, is way off the mark here. Of course any college student who is claimimng residnecy in New Hampshire has a constitutionally protected right to vote here! And never once in the article is there an accusation that students from Massachussetts are acting improperly.

Both articles you cited are built solely and written plainly as opinion pieces, each based on the opinion of a single partisan legislator. There is not a shred of factual information in either article in which to base the accusations you passed in your comments as fact.

Interestingly enough, one article is 3 years old and the other nearly a year old. Since then there has been plenty of time for the quoted politicians in both cases to provide ample information to support their opinions. Legislative voting records and lobbyist activities are easily tracked and readily reported on a number of public sites. Trends indicating undue influence could be easily established. Voting records and registrar lists in both New Hampshire & Massachussetts are also a matter of public record. In the year since the opinion piece on student voting has been written, it would have been very easy for anyone to examine the record and show substantial proof that double or improper student voting was occuring. In both cases not a single individual or organization has come forward to offer any verifiable proof that the crimes you say routinely occur have indeed been happening at all.

Oh right, I forgot.....its a conspiracy. ;)

My final post on this subject and once again my apologies to Don for contributing to a thread gone far astray. It was the fact that these comments were so outlandish in nature and passed off as fact, when no such facts existsd, that I felt an appropriate response was required to debunk them.

Skip

Outlaw

09-18-2004, 08:25 AM

The three questions all relate to the emptying of the lake and its present level. (Not so much the markers -- except maybe the dirty ones.)How exactly one persons question about when the boat should be taken out for the season relates to (below) is stretching it, more than just a bit I believe.

- Drinking water for Massachusetts?
- swim-spaghetti-sized white foamy lumps (still wondering what is meant by these)
- a satin black (scratch dull) "bathtub-ring" (My "working theory" is petroleum-based deposits. I know...DUH)
I can vote in NH with only a few changes of paperwork. (And then register at the polls the day of the election).You are correct, anyone who chooses to be a resident of NH can and should vote, but let me clarify. 1) you need to have a permanent mailing address in NH with mail received at it (no PO Boxes), proof of a residential address is accomplished by providing the town clerk with such evidence as a property tax bill, electric bill, gas bill, or phone bill -- all with a billing address (the address the bills are mailed to) that is current valid NH address; 2) then you must turn in your out of state drivers license, and show a certifed (copy) of your birth certificate along with completing the required RMV for NH forms to get your NH license; 3) and then you can and must register your vehicle(s) in the city/town you live in (in NH) (this is also a convenient time to register to vote since you're already at the town clerks office). In order to complete Item #3, you must have #2 completed, no exceptions. In the end you relinquish your residency in any other state and are now an official resident of NH.
Eagle Tribune on NH lobbying:...................As for the rest, Skip addressed this well.

I too apologize to Don for laboring an 'off topic' post and will submit my response to the original questions once more in an effort to get back on track.
To answer the original question of this thread: Many local and weekend boaters use the Mount Washington's last cruise as an indicator when they take their boat out for the season (this year it would be October 23rd). It's not a bad idea to keep an eye on the long term weather forecast to see if there are any unexpected temperature drops that could cause freezing for a day or more (water in the boat motor(s) could freeze and cause damage). But if you're talking about now or October 8th, you should be fine with October 8th, and like I mentioned, keep an eye on the weather and if you are using a marina, chat with them to see when they can take the boat out (based on their schedule).

DRH

09-18-2004, 09:07 AM

You are correct, anyone who chooses to be a resident of NH can and should vote, but let me clarify. 1) you need to have a permanent mailing address in NH with mail received at it (no PO Boxes), proof of a residential address is accomplished by providing the town clerk with such evidence as a property tax bill, electric bill, gas bill, or phone bill -- all with a billing address (the address the bills are mailed to) that is current valid NH address; 2) then you must turn in your out of state drivers license, and show a certifed (copy) of your birth certificate along with completing the required RMV for NH forms to get your NH license; 3) and then you can and must register your vehicle(s) in the city/town you live in (in NH) (this is also a convenient time to register to vote since you're already at the town clerks office). In order to complete Item #3, you must have #2 completed, no exceptions. In the end you relinquish your residency in any other state and are now an official resident of NH.
Outlaw is right on the mark. My wife and I moved to NH last fall and we had to meet the requirements Outlaw described in order to 1) obtain our NH drivers' licenses, 2) register our vehicles here and 3) register to vote. In addition, the Alton Town Clerk's office then mailed a notification to the Town Clerk in our former out-of-state town to confirm that we were no longer legal residents of that town ... or state ... and that we were now ineligible to vote there. Also, in order to obtain her NH driver's license my wife had to provide not only her birth certificate, but a copy of our marriage license to validate her married name. The requirements for establishing legal residency have been tightened as a result of 9/11 and the USA Patriot Act.

madrasahs

09-19-2004, 09:39 PM

swim-spaghetti-sized white foamy lumps (still wondering what is meant by these)

Well, they're foam (suds), white, yellow, or beige in color, and I think maybe the swim-thingys are called noodles, not spaghetti. I've got photos, but they're not digitized yet.

"Foam" can be pillow-sized -- even mattress-sized -- and appear in September (when the lake is drawn down and more sand is exposed) after a North wind against (mostly) north-facing shorelines. Although they can migrate anywhere. I've got a call into DES, and will advise -- if they know.

My working theory is that the north-facing shorelines, having taken Big Boat wake "hits" all summer, have exposed large new soil surfaces to bacteria in the "new" shallows. North-facing shorelines don't get the really bad north winter blasts because the lake is iced over then. Not many north-facing Winnipesaukee non-island shorelines have sufficient fetch, either.

your alleged conspiracies.
I used conspiracies?
that legisltors are corrupt
I used corrupt?
lobbying in New Hampshire was unfair...
I used unfair?
Interestingly enough, one article is 3 years old...
2000 was the only national election we've had between 1999-2004.

BTW, there was an 18% turnout, which favored the state pro-income-tax Dems. http://www.fosters.com/September2004/09.19.04/comment/manning_0919.asp
Blah, blah, blah blah.
Blah blah blah blah blah.
...from your anonimity...(edited out)
My anonimity?
Mad, You are correct about Florida. It is a mess.

As a Navy brat, my family has lived in many places -- all of them on the water, or very near the water.

All*** of those other places have had their waters ruined and their natural beauty stripped from them -- mostly by lousy planning, spot zoning, and rampant development. Real estate agents pressured multi-millionaire's plans against the farmer or corrupted local government. I wouldn't go back to any of them to live or retire.

***(Well, not all: Narragansett Bay was already ruined upon arrival).

We still managed most summers (and occasionally year-round) at Lake Winnipesaukee.

The life-lesson I hope to continue at the Forum is to convey my dismay at the RATE of change here at the lake.

The Lakes Region is like watching a slow-motion train wreck, with one car after another folding against another and careening off the tracks. It appears that I may actually see the day that the caboose finally launches off the railroad bed.

NightWing

09-19-2004, 11:07 PM

Sir, if I may quote part of your last:

"The life-lesson I hope to continue at the Forum is to convey my dismay at the RATE of change here at the lake.

The Lakes Region is like watching a slow-motion train wreck, with one car after another folding against another and careening off the tracks. It appears that I may actually see the day that the caboose finally launches off the railroad bed."

It is a shame that you can't convey more of a positive message about the lake. You are fortunate to have lake front property and it is sad that so many of the things you write about express your anger. Here is a smiley for you. :) Maybe it will help.

Outlaw

09-20-2004, 12:52 AM

Well, they're foam (suds), white, yellow, or beige in color, and I think maybe the swim-thingys are called noodles, not spaghetti. I've got photos, but they're not digitized yet.

"Foam" can be pillow-sized -- even mattress-sized -- and appear in September (when the lake is drawn down and more sand is exposed) after a North wind against (mostly) north-facing shorelines. Although they can migrate anywhere. I've got a call into DES, and will advise -- if they know.
Thought this might be of interest, or at least something to talk to the DES about when you call them.

http://www.cayugalake.org/newsletter/winter/2003/lake_foam.html (http://www.cayugalake.org/newsletter/winter/2003/lake_foam.html)

Foam is generally caused by agents called surfactants, which reduce the surface tension of water. When air is mixed with the water surface by wave or wind action, bubbles form. Laundry and other detergents have long been known to be a source of surfactants in lakes and streams. However, evidence is pointing in this case to an entirely natural source of these compounds. When organisms, such as algae, plants, fish and/or zebra mussels die and decompose they release fatty acids, which act as surfactants. Storms and agitation from boats cause these natural surfactants to mix with surface waters, resulting in streaks of sudsy white foam, which can collect in large quantities on windward shores, coves, or in eddies.

Found two other wed sites that basically said the same.

.....covered by the white foam of natural saponins produced by the decomposition of lake algae.....

.....thick piles of white foam, a natural reaction when the lake's carbonate-rich water is agitated.....

My working theory is that the north-facing shorelines, having taken Big Boat wake "hits" all summer, have exposed large new soil surfaces to bacteria in the "new" shallows. North-facing shorelines don't get the really bad north winter blasts because the lake is iced over then. Not many north-facing Winnipesaukee non-island shorelines have sufficient fetch, either.Some things can be created naturally but it appears that most if not everything you post has to do with BIG boats, FAST boats, BIG boat wakes. Curious, is this something to do with "boat-us envy?"

Skip

09-20-2004, 05:21 AM

Mad,

You need to go back and re-read the still baseless allegations you made in your post #17.

Still anxiously awaiting any proof you have to back up your insinuation that the New Hampshire State Legislature is corrupt and that the New Hampshire election process is over-run by out of state (Massachussetts in particular) students.

Or were those claims made by you just more "working theories"?

Patiently awaiting, :rolleye2:

Skip

PROPELLER

09-20-2004, 07:59 AM

Mad, Where is your scientific proof that it is big boat wakes contributing to the foam & not just any old boat wake from relatively small 18' bow riders for example, if boat wakes have any thing at all to do with the foam. Big is a relative term, what you think is big may not be to the several thousand people who use the lake. Maybe big wave action like Sunday contributes. How are you going to stop that?

I gather from old posts when you were I.R. that you think the biggest boat on the lake should be 24'. Why is that the magic number? Boats 24' & smaller can create big wakes when they are not planed off.

Why is your personal dismay of the changes at the lake a life lesson for the rest of us?

madrasahs

09-21-2004, 08:26 AM

Mad, Where is your scientific proof that it is big boat wakes contributing to the foam?

Consider that a "working theory" is akin to a hypothesis. Nothing's "scientific" until somebody produces a study that can be reliably reproduced by another.

When organisms, such as algae, plants, fish and/or zebra mussels die and decompose they release fatty acids, which act as surfactants.

Thanks! :) This is an update for me. I didn't know that zebra mussels were in Cuyahoga County lakes. Our own mussels seem to be alive and well. Zebras do go through "die-offs" which probably raised the consciousness of NY lake residents when foam got bad.

I called DES, and they said they'd seen it so high on Winnipesaukee beaches that winds would blow the foam across the roadway! He couldn't answer my question about when it started, as "foam" records only go back ten years. I think it's related to the "green snot" that started appearing about 20 years ago in my area. Shoreline erosion fertilizes algae. As algae dies, it likely contributes to the foam, as I hadn't seen either (foam or algae) before about 1985, when I rented here on the lake.

How are you going to stop that?

Like the canary in the coal mine, foam appears to be an indicator of "organic load" in our lake. DES said they closed nearly twice as many lakes in NH this year as last. Something's going to stop "that", and probably too late. (The caboose, as it were).
.
Why is your personal dismay of the changes at the lake a life lesson for the rest of us?

I've been at the same spot for fifty years -- longer than Lakegeezer!

It won't be a life-lesson -- for many.

"I gather from old posts when you were I.R. that you think the biggest boat on the lake should be 24'. Why is that the magic number? Boats 24' & smaller can create big wakes when they are not planed off.

"Mad" is still plodding along at 1.85 posts per day, less than the suggested maximum at the olde Forum. I change my screen name every year so I can better access the archives. "Madrasahs" was selected to raise consciousness about:
1)world events
2)why sailing is better than using fossil fuels
3)and why gallon-per-minute boats contribute to our woes.

Considering "Thumpee" next year.***

What you should have seen was an advocacy of much higher fees for boats larger than 24-feet. Twenty-four feet was the length of the victim's boat in the "Baja incident". ***("I heard a thump".) If a 24-footer can't take the weather, it should anchor in the lee of a shore, or "shouldn't go out in it" in the first place.

Yes, the wakes are bad off-plane even then, but it gets worse as you add tonnage and length. Twenty-four feet is the new "legal maximum" for Folsum Lake, a big lake which got crazy on weekends.
.
Curious, is this something to do with "boat-us envy?"

If you received the latest "Coldwell Banker" real estate flyer, there's a full-page-cover photo of more sailboats clustered together than I have ever seen on Winnipesaukee. Coldwell wants to "project" the ambiance of peace and quiet to their prospective clients. (The "cabin-fever effect", perhaps)

"Envy" must be in the "ear of the beholder", I guess.

All of the boats I own presently are nearly the biggest I've ever wanted to own; however, "envy" is seeing a boat like Winnipesaukee Diver's going by -- under sail.

Still anxiously awaiting any proof you have to back up your insinuation that the New Hampshire State Legislature is corrupt and that the New Hampshire election process is over-run by out of state (Massachussetts in particular) students.

Or were those claims made by you just more "working theories"?

If the Opinion of others quoted in NH newspapers won't do the trick, maybe Intuition will work.

Yesterday's national headlines were overshadowed by TV network woes. What mostly didn't appear was a news story that there are 29,000 New Yorkers illegally registered as voters in both New York and Florida.

1) With NH next door to Massachusetts, and
2) Hanover, NH (Dartmouth) votes going opposite the rest of the state and
3) news accounts like the above,

What should one's intuition tell one? That New Hampshire is immune to fraud?

Who (apparently, not me) can prove that there's no NH Medicare fraud, or NH voter fraud, or NH-lobbyist fraud, or real estate fraud? I mean, even the President's daughters have fake IDs. How is NH exempt from fraud? Because we're "nice"?

I earlier opined that "Massachusetts is run by crooks". You'll note that the Forum's staunch defenders of Massachusett's government have lined up to answer that charge none deep.

Rose

09-21-2004, 10:41 AM

I earlier opined that "Massachusetts is run by crooks". You'll note that the Forum's staunch defenders of Massachusett's government have lined up to answer that charge none deep.

If you'll read the link below, you'll see that crooked politicians are everywhere, even in your beloved NH. Perhaps my fellow Massholes realize the problem is everywhere and that's why they haven't lined up to refute your claim.

Political Tricks (http://archive.citizen.com/2004/september2004/09.10.04/comment/editorial%5F09.10%5F04.asp)

Merrymeeting

09-21-2004, 01:02 PM

1) With NH next door to Massachusetts, and
2) Hanover, NH (Dartmouth) votes going opposite the rest of the state and
3) news accounts like the above,

What should one's intuition tell one?

As with many of your posts, you seem to bend logic to suit your needs.

1) Last time I looked, Vermont was also next to NH
2) In the same look, I noted that Hanover is on the NH/VT border
3) Mapping software says that Hanover is about 80 miles from the closest point in MA

So, do I therefore conclude that Vermont government is also included in your sweeping statement?

NightWing

09-21-2004, 01:14 PM

Once again, another thread is being dominated with the opinions of one person who quotes his challengers and refutes what they say. I am convinced that the subject doesn't matter. The thread will twist and turn and completely escape the gist of the original post. I have yet to see Madrasahs agree with anyone.

PROPELLER

09-21-2004, 03:05 PM

Mad, "something is going to stop that" Something is going to stop wave action? You are mad! Because some lake somewhere chose to limit boat length to 24' that means its right for Winni? Listen to yourself. All boat operators are responsible for their wake no matter how big. If some big boat does damage then they should be held accountable but that does not mean we should impose a length limit. If all boats are operated properly & with enough distance from shore then there is no problem. If you are complaining about boat wakes causing white lumps of foam & damage to your shore line then all motorized boats should be eliminated because it does not matter what size, any boat will cause these issues.

NightWing

09-21-2004, 07:18 PM

If you are complaining about boat wakes causing white lumps of foam & damage to your shore line then all motorized boats should be eliminated because it does not matter what size, any boat will cause these issues.

Propeller, boy are you opening Pandora's Box for Mad! This would suit him fine!
:D

Outlaw

09-21-2004, 08:11 PM

To answer the original question of this thread: Many local and weekend boaters use the Mount Washington's last cruise as an indicator when they take their boat out for the season (this year it would be October 23rd). It's not a bad idea to keep an eye on the long term weather forecast to see if there are any unexpected temperature drops that could cause freezing for a day or more (water in the boat motor(s) could freeze and cause damage). But if you're talking about now or October 8th, you should be fine with October 8th, and like I mentioned, keep an eye on the weather and if you are using a marina, chat with them to see when they can take the boat out (based on their schedule).

Just Sold

09-21-2004, 08:45 PM

The original thread was about the lowering of the lake.

To that end we took a ride all the way up into Green's Basin today from Gilford via Alton Bay, a round about trip since we visited people Alton Bay first, but well worth the ride as it was so smooth on the lake today. A little cool when under way due to so many clouds vs sun. I posted a few Pics on the Photo Post.

The lake is noticeably lower but not so much that a 22' Cuddy could not negotiate the trip. Never hit anything or came close to it. I used the depth sounder a few times but was able to negotaite quite nicely using markers. Many of the rocks are visable which makes it easier to know where some of the bad spots are. This was our first trip all the way into Green's Basin and we really enjoyed it. :coolsm:

In Alton bay I could hear, loud, but only barely see the water rushing down the Cascades Falls so I would assume that there are many streams and brooks putting water into the lake pretty fast. I tried to get a photo of the Cascades but could not get anything reasonable. :( See photo post.

The lake is reported to be at 10.08" below full lake level and flowing out at 766 CFPS. The water temp is down to 66 F. :eek:

madrasahs

09-23-2004, 07:08 AM

The original thread was about the lowering of the lake.

Indeed it was; however, Wolfeboro Matt didn't divulge the draft of his boat, so answers were problematical from the gitgo.

A fair question to follow might have been: "What happens to the water that is drained from Winnipesaukee...Do Lowell and Lawrence (MA) use it as a drinking water source?"

Any good answer would not have introduced the word "primaries" (Outlaw) nor, subsequently, "Massachusetts" (Propeller).

As they will state in U.S. courtrooms, "Your Honor, they have opened the door".
.

"Stop the MADness"

Good one. :)

Mad, "something is going to stop that" Something is going to stop wave action? You are mad! Because some lake somewhere chose to limit boat length to 24' that means its right for Winni? Listen to yourself. All boat operators are responsible for their wake no matter how big. If some big boat does damage then they should be held accountable but that does not mean we should impose a length limit. If all boats are operated properly & with enough distance from shore then there is no problem. If you are complaining about boat wakes causing white lumps of foam & damage to your shore line then all motorized boats should be eliminated because it does not matter what size, any boat will cause these issues.

Ever seen Captain "B" cited for wake damage? Has anybody?

Remember 556ZP from the Olde Forum? His boat ("less than 30-feet") didn't even leave a wake! Remarkable boat, that.
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforum/archive1.cgi?noframes;read=57465

His posts were also just one giant paragraph. :confused: Hmmmm.
.

Once again, another thread is being dominated with the opinions of one person who quotes his challengers and refutes what they say. I am convinced that the subject doesn't matter. The thread will twist and turn and completely escape the gist of the original post. I have yet to see Madrasahs agree with anyone.

Agree? Well, Skip agreed with me once -- regarding the PFD-less kayaker.

"Mac" has steadfastly disagreed with me, even stating that two of my three first boats -- all built by me -- were "too small for Winnipesaukee".

Today, while it's true I wouldn't take them out on most "boating" days, there are days that are suitable -- the same days that you'll sometimes see rowing sculls out there. Lake Winnipesaukee hasn't changed (on the surface, anyway), but the boating environment certainly has. Any disagreements there?

As for "refuting":

One very rich post needed refuting -- by anybody -- was this paraphrased one: "...I've installed Captain's Choice , and religiously followed the law...".

Very interesting, but it followed a promise not to refute the poster again.

As for "dominating":

At the olde Forum, there was much less "Thread Discipline". Posters would even change the thread title mid-thought. It was entertaining nonetheless -- right, FLL?

When it comes to discussion, the best ideas will rise to the surface. (They're all "opinions" anyway -- what the hay).

Besides, at this moment, 1,345 "views" have been made at this thread.

'Can't be a bad thing.

NightWing

09-23-2004, 08:40 AM

1,345 views because people are curious how you are going to twist it around again and again. Entertainment for some, aggravation for others. :rolleye2:

Mee-n-Mac

09-23-2004, 11:44 AM

{snip}
"Mac" has steadfastly disagreed with me, even stating that two of my three first boats -- all built by me -- were "too small for Winnipesaukee".

Today, while it's true I wouldn't take them out on most "boating" days, there are days that are suitable -- the same days that you'll sometimes see rowing sculls out there. Lake Winnipesaukee hasn't changed (on the surface, anyway), but the boating environment certainly has. Any disagreements there?

I don't recall saying any of your boats were too small for Winnipesaukee*. :rolleye1: I do recall you saying a cruiser had swamped your Minimax and I chimed in to tell people what a Minimax was (also having built one). The purpose was to inform people that the wake from nearly any boat could roll over the bow, side, transom of said Minimax. I did wonder at the time how a wake, of any sort, could sink the boat. My Minimax cockpit was plugged at the sides and foredeck creating 3 watertight compartments. You could fill the cockpit (BTDT, with rainwater) but the boat would remain (did remain) afloat. I now believe the boat under discussion was a later variant of the design I know so perhaps it was different in this regard ?

I only disagree with you when you're wrong ... so how is that steadfast ? ;) Hmmm, on 2'nd thought I retract that question :p

*link to old post
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforum/archive1.cgi?noframes;read=62413

"My first boats were a canoe and a rowboat, bought from friends. I hand-built my next two boats -- both PM MiniMax designs. My second MiniMax was sunk on Winnipesaukee by a 30-foot Chris-Craft, which was towing a waterskier at the time. That got my attention -- as a teenager. "

C'mon now, I had a MiniMax as well. The wake from a Sunfish could sink one of those :) I never did operate it on Winni, just on Salmon Pond in ME. A friend had a more substantial "hydro" from the same people who designed the MiniMax. I can't recall what it was called ... MaxiMax perhaps.

For the uninitiated a MiniMax is a "boat", homemade from 2 pieces of plywood and some 1x6 (maybe 1x8 at the transom ?). Has 0 deg deadrise and freeboard of maybe 4", less at the bow when underway.