Real cheap or free Internet Access

[IslandRadio]

I, and a number of my neighbors here on Rattlesnake Island have had it with Verizon Broadband Wireless. It is SLOW SLOW SLOW, and Verizon has NO plans of upgrading their G3 network (just spoke with them today about it).

It turns out that a number of us (including me) need Internet access for our jobs, and it needs to be fast and reliable. It appears as if all of the wireless providers have "issues", and Hughes is impractical due to the packet latency (and they charge for bandwidth).

So, I think the best solution is to backhaul high speed bandwidth from the mainland, over to the Island via point to point or point to multipoint wireless.

I spoke with MetroCast, and I can get business class Internet through them in Gilford and Alton.

We need a mainland site in Gilford or Alton that has an unobstructed view of the West side of the Rattlesnake Island "Peninsula". If, from where you are, you look to the East or North from Gilford or far West Alton and can see Rattlesnake, chance are you can see the Peninsula.

In exchange for allowing me to mount a small piece of equipment (smaller than a small satellite TV dish) on some tree or other stable structure that can see the island, you can connect to our network for FREE - giving you free high speed Internet access!!!

I've done this sort of thing in the past (including my Internet access where I live now - no access other is available), and it works out very well .

If it works out for the initial folks near me who want it, I will expand the system to include other parts of the island.

If you have a possible mainland site, please PM me or email at cloutier@piesky.com

Any help in this regard would be greatly appreciated :)

Thanks so much and Regards,

Steve

[DRH]

I just sent you an email, Steve. Not sure if our location would be of any assistance, but if it might I'd be glad to talk to you.

[nhd]

Just sent you an email with photos. Nancy

[SteveA]

Is this the geography you need?

4093

[IslandRadio]

Yes, that's the exact area!

Thanks and Regards,

Steve

[Island Girl]

How will you expand access to the broads side?

[Bear Islander]

Has anyone on Rattlesnake Island applied to Metrocast for a "line extension" to the island?

That is what I did on Bear and it worked.

[VitaBene]

Does that work on density? It seems like cable companies work solely on formulas- if you drive down rt 171 there are a whole host of people that apparently cannot get cable based on density requirements.

It seems like the town fathers that negotiate the cable deals need to make sure that everyone can have access (within reason).

[IslandRadio]

Has anyone on Rattlesnake Island applied to Metrocast for a "line extension" to the island?

That is what I did on Bear and it worked.

I did talk with Metrocast about extending the system to Rattlesnake (and Sleeper's) island. No go - at least nothing in the works currently, and no plans. It is *probable* that the cable contract dictates the system must be expanded to unserviced areas if a certain number of people in the area agree to sign up. But, there may be "island" clauses in there - don't know - haven't seen the contract. Will definitely get hold of the Town of Alton and find out!!!

But, even if the system were to be expanded, it could take a very long time.

IG asked about coverage on all sides of the island (good question!):

There are number of ways to distribute the access around the island, once the land-based systems are in place.... but the easiest way to handle it is to use a point to multipoint system, and have a number of "hubs" located at strategic points on the island, and handle local distribution to individual homes from there.

It might be necessary to use 2 land-based locations, one on each side of the island, to achieve full coverage.

The key is to make the system as low maintenance as possible, to keep costs down.

Regards,

Steve

[Yankee]

What ISP will you be using, or will you be providing that as well?

[wifi]

Why not bounce some bandwidth off the mainland, like you are thinking, to a few strategic APs around the island, operate it like a coop? Faster than waiting for metrocast and more fun :)

Who owns the phone poles, seems like a fast and ready made way to distribute it.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Why not bounce some bandwidth off the mainland, like you are thinking, to a few strategic APs around the island, operate it like a coop? Faster than waiting for metrocast and more fun :)

Who owns the phone poles, seems like a fast and ready made way to distribute it.

NH Electric Coop appear to handle the poles. Verizon has phone lines as well.

The island is probably a bit of a challenge with it's steep landscape. As an example, I can't see a direct TV satellite from my lot because of the steepness of the terrain.

[Bear Islander]

I did talk with Metrocast about extending the system to Rattlesnake (and Sleeper's) island. No go - at least nothing in the works currently, and no plans. It is *probable* that the cable contract dictates the system must be expanded to unserviced areas if a certain number of people in the area agree to sign up. But, there may be "island" clauses in there - don't know - haven't seen the contract. Will definitely get hold of the Town of Alton and find out!!!

But, even if the system were to be expanded, it could take a very long time.

IG asked about coverage on all sides of the island (good question!):

There are number of ways to distribute the access around the island, once the land-based systems are in place.... but the easiest way to handle it is to use a point to multipoint system, and have a number of "hubs" located at strategic points on the island, and handle local distribution to individual homes from there.

It might be necessary to use 2 land-based locations, one on each side of the island, to achieve full coverage.

The key is to make the system as low maintenance as possible, to keep costs down.

Regards,

Steve

I was told by Metrocast that there was a clause in their contract such that they didn't have to service the islands. However when I received a copy of the contact from the town guess what. That right, no such clause. They out and out lied about it.

Metrocast will never cable the island voluntarily, you will have to jam the contract down their throats. Don't take no for an answer.

[IslandRadio]

I was told by Metrocast that there was a clause in their contract such that they didn't have to service the islands. However when I received a copy of the contact from the town guess what. That right, no such clause. They out and out lied about it.

Metrocast will never cable the island voluntarily, you will have to jam the contract down their throats. Don't take no for an answer.

Absolutely! They are all the same (the cable providers). I'm on the cable committee in my town, and we run into the same thing all the time - we have to force them legally to do what the contract states.

I spoke with the Alton town admin, and he is getting me the relevant sections of the franchise agreement the Town has with Metrocast. An examination of the language in the contract will quickly yield the answer - and I'm hoping the answer is the one we want !!!!!! :cool:

Any suggestions or advise in this area are GREATLY appreciated!

Thanks and Regards,

Steve

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Island Radio,
I think there was some sort of survey done on the Island a few years back to gauge how many people would sign up for cable. Maybe IG remembers details. If you can pull this off, I suspect a statue could be erected up near the UFO lights on the top:D. See you at FF.
Thanks for your efforts.

[Bear Islander]

Absolutely! They are all the same (the cable providers). I'm on the cable committee in my town, and we run into the same thing all the time - we have to force them legally to do what the contract states.

I spoke with the Alton town admin, and he is getting me the relevant sections of the franchise agreement the Town has with Metrocast. An examination of the language in the contract will quickly yield the answer - and I'm hoping the answer is the one we want !!!!!! :cool:

Any suggestions or advise in this area are GREATLY appreciated!

Thanks and Regards,

Steve

One requirement in our contract was ten subscribers per cable mile. Don't figure the entire island, that is to complicated, just give them 10 homes that can be serviced by one mile of cable (not including down leads). Probably ten homes on the mainland side should do it. When they service the island they will be happy to service the entire island. It's getting to the island underwater that they don't want to do.

Another requirement was a deposit for one years service. I found the minimum service amount per month. That times 12 months times 10 homes came to about $2,000. I sent them a check for the full amount. They never cashed it and eventually sent it back. Sending the check just took away an excuse for Metrocast to say no.

I also sent them a map showing the distances and the pertinent part of the cable contract.

In New Hampshire a cable company does not have to be licensed by the state. However Metrocast also offers telephone service over their cable so they do have to be licensed.

Metrocast originaly said no to my line-extension application. I then contacted the state Dept. of Public Utilities requesting that they revoke Metrocasts license for violating their contract with Meredith. I also told Metrocast I was going to schedule a press conference to inform the press of their refusal. They changed their minds and wired the island.

Once they agreed to come it took about 18 months. Much of the times was waiting on the Army Corps of Engineers.

[fatlazyless]

Both the Meredith Library and Meredith McDonald's have free wifi, plus the library has about eight free 'puter terminals along with a 20-cent/page printer.

[IslandRadio]

One requirement in our contract was ten subscribers per cable mile. Don't figure the entire island, that is to complicated, just give them 10 homes that can be serviced by one mile of cable (not including down leads). Probably ten homes on the mainland side should do it. When they service the island they will be happy to service the entire island. It's getting to the island underwater that they don't want to do.

Another requirement was a deposit for one years service. I found the minimum service amount per month. That times 12 months times 10 homes came to about $2,000. I sent them a check for the full amount. They never cashed it and eventually sent it back. Sending the check just took away an excuse for Metrocast to say no.

I also sent them a map showing the distances and the pertinent part of the cable contract.

In New Hampshire a cable company does not have to be licensed by the state. However Metrocast also offers telephone service over their cable so they do have to be licensed.

Metrocast originaly said no to my line-extension application. I then contacted the state Dept. of Public Utilities requesting that they revoke Metrocasts license for violating their contract with Meredith. I also told Metrocast I was going to schedule a press conference to inform the press of their refusal. They changed their minds and wired the island.

Once they agreed to come it took about 18 months. Much of the times was waiting on the Army Corps of Engineers.

HI - Thanks for the info! I figured at least a year, if not more - assuming we can even get it at all. Depends on the contract. I should know more today....hopefully.

If it is not possible to get Metrocast over here, then the only other solution is to build an infrastructure to provide high speed Internet, unless we all want to suffer with Verizon for unforseen years :rolleye2:

Building such a thing is not as bad as one might think. The way to make it really solid is to start with a smaller number of users, get everything working and stable, and then gradually add groups of users, constantly monitoring the performance and reliability along the way.

Regards,

Steve

[classic22]

I also would be interested in dumping verizon on the island. It seems as though their service has degraded over the last couple of years. In any event
I am also interested in an alternative internet provider for the island. I live on the southeast part of the island, and can "see" down into minge cove from my property. Maybe the marina in minge cove would be a good place to beam the signal from. Also, maybe an option is to get the island association and the marina association to get involved, as many residents belong to both organizations.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

I have been thinking about my initial excitement at the prospect of cable and internet at the camp. Something about it was bothering me. I figured it out. The prospect of "forcing" a private company to do something that is obviously not in their best financial interest is contrary to my conservative belief system. The possibility of causing other customers to pay more so that I have more than 2-3 channels from Maine is just not worth that compromise in principals. Crap.:(

[granitebox]

RG, similar thoughts, economics usually takes care of itself when left to their own devices. When Metrocast signed the original agreement you can be sure they calculated all the costs and benefits of the contract. Their financial interests have been well served by having the agreement and servicing the town. The cost (or risk of cost) was calculated into the benefit from the larger service agreement at the beginning and they knew full well that one of the potential costs would be to add service to lower density areas as those areas developed. There were plenty of benefits built into their economic model to account for this.

I believe your concern is valid except they signed a lucrative agreement and this was part of the negotiations.

[IslandRadio]

I have been thinking about my initial excitement at the prospect of cable and internet at the camp. Something about it was bothering me. I figured it out. The prospect of "forcing" a private company to do something that is obviously not in their best financial interest is contrary to my conservative belief system. The possibility of causing other customers to pay more so that I have more than 2-3 channels from Maine is just not worth that compromise in principals. Crap.:(

I too would not force a company into an economic disadvantage in this manner (by using the government). However, having negotiated the cable contract in my town, the profitability is AMAZING, and they have a legal monopoly and can pretty much charge what they want (and they do).

The Cable Act (early 90s) gave the cable companies essentially unlimited power to dictate terms, and a town can't get rid of them unless the company does something like go dark (and for a long time).

One of the problems with public utilities is their desire to "cherry pick" the easy stuff, and leave the more rural areas unserviced. Public utilities have a unique position of pretty much guaranteed profitability and for this privilege, they need to service the less profitable areas.

If I could own a business of this type, it would be great -the revenue stream is stable, your market is protected, and you can increase costs to stay profitable.

Regards,

Steve (another fiscal conservative ;) )

[brk-lnt]

I too would not force a company into an economic disadvantage in this manner (by using the government). However, having negotiated the cable contract in my town, the profitability is AMAZING, and they have a legal monopoly and can pretty much charge what they want (and they do).


It's been 10 years since I sat on my towns telecommunications committee, but my experience was the exact opposite. In fact, for the basic cable packages the rates were pretty strictly set, and more or less a direct relation to the number of channels offered.

If the density of houses is high, then an MSO can make some good cash, especially in towns with more wealthy residents who opt for the premium channels/packages (which do not have the same mount of pricing regulation). But in more remote areas, or areas where many of the residents cancel their services for several months out of the year, the profits are not so very amazing.

Regarding Internet access on the Island, have you looked into any of the wireless broadband providers (Towerstream or Pipeline)?

[Kamper]

What you're "forcing"them to do is fulfill their commitment. When they negotiated the contract they knew some parts of town would cost more to service than others. All of that was taken into consideration to determine if they could make a profit on that territory.

If part of their planning was to stone-wall and avoid some of the obligations they agreed to, then it's their tough luck to encounter a savvy customer base.

[Bear Islander]

Metrocast has a MONOPOLY on cable service in this area. "With great power comes great responsibility". Having a monopoly gives a company an incredible economic advantage. The down side to that is that they have to service EVERYONE the contact requires.

If Metrocast wanted to have an exception for the islands then they should have negotiated it into their contract with the town. If they never imagined the islands would ask for service then that is just to bad. I'm sure they have attorneys that go over these contracts and gave them the thumbs up. It is not my responsibility to fix their mistakes. And there is no reason I should go without services they are legally required to provide

Most of the 191 homes on Bear Island now have Metrocast Internet. Many also have Cable TV and Metrocast telephone service. They are making money on the island. The down side for them is that it will take more years than they would like for them to see a profit. However they WILL see a profit.

[IslandRadio]

It's been 10 years since I sat on my towns telecommunications committee, but my experience was the exact opposite. In fact, for the basic cable packages the rates were pretty strictly set, and more or less a direct relation to the number of channels offered.



It *may* be different here, but at the time I was negotiating the contract, the provider admitted to being 40% profitable. THAT is a high profit margin! If I could get that in my business, I'd be absolutely pleased.

Metrocast is more expensive that our local provider for the same services (in fact, quite a bit more expensive), leading me to believe that the rates are not so regulated as to put the company in an economic disadvantage.

We had the same problem in the town in which I live with the local cable provider. There were sections of town not covered, and when the residents got the critical mass to require an expansion, the cable provider balked until we called them on the contract.

Now they're getting somewhere around $90/month per household for the 60 or so homes in the newly serviced area. I figure about 6 months and the entire investment is recouped (by their figures).

Oh well !

Regards,

Steve

[jrc]

My company is an equipment supplier to the cable companies and you have to be a little careful lumping them all together.

Companies like Comcast and Time Warner are gorillas and can easily absorb any isolated customers. Their gross profits on cable operations are staggering. Of course they have plenty of other expenses to offset those profits. Like buying equipment from my company.

But companies like Metrocast are really hand to mouth. They have only areas were the density is low. They work a lot harder for their profits. This also means that they don't have a lot of capital to buy equipment for sexy new services.

That said, it is a business and they signed a contract. If the contract says they need to service islands of customers (figuratively and literally), then it's fair to force them into it. (I have not read the contract). As a fellow fiscal conservative, we must enforce the rule of law.

[Bear Islander]

If Metrocast's contract allowed them to disconnect customers that were not making them a profit, what do you think they would do? That's right... they would shut those customers off in a heartbeat!

Metrocast is in 131 communities in 9 states. Not exactly a mom and pop operation.

[jrc]

Comcast is #1 with 23,477,000 subscribers

Metrocast is #23 with 180,000 subscribers.

They have less than 0.2 percent market share.

They should live up to their contract but don't think you're dealing with deep pockets. If you assume $80 a month per customer, thats less than $18 million a year.

http://www.ncta.com/Stats/TopMSOs.aspx

[Lucky1]

Seems better to connect with my Verizon in NH -Moultonborough than in MA even? I do not understand. This is for the computer and is a stick sort of thing that plugs into a port on the computer.

Use Time Warner for the cable tv.

[IslandRadio]

Seems better to connect with my Verizon in NH -Moultonborough than in MA even? I do not understand. This is for the computer and is a stick sort of thing that plugs into a port on the computer.

Use Time Warner for the cable tv.

Hi Lucky1 - it was good to meet you at the ForumFest..

To answer the question -

Verizon Broadband would certainly be viable if it actually performed to some reasonable specs. Around here, it doesn't !

There is a diagnostic utility that is included with most operating systems called ping. Ping sends a small data packet to the computer you specifiy on the ping command line, and the other end responds by sending a packet back to you. The packet "round trip time" is then reported. This is a very useful utility ! There is another one called tracert (traceroute on Unix) that will trace the route a packet takes through the network... but that's another story.

Ping will give you a good indication of how fast your network connection plus all of the intermediate hops is performing.

As an example, on a typical cable Internet connection, one can ping a well connected host (let's say google.com - type ping google.com at a command prompt), and the round-trip time will be something like 20 to 30 milliseconds (thousandths of a second). It may even be less, depending.

On a typical DSL connection, the round trip time might be 30-50 milliseconds.

Using Verizon Broadband on a normal day at the lake, the round trip time is *TYPICALLY* 600 - 800 milliseconds (almost 1 second for 1 packet), and OFTEN 3000 milliseconds (3 seconds for 1 packet)!!! That is 100 times slower than cable or DSL when things are really being heavily used, and at its very best - still 1/10th as fast. Sometimes it is 10,000 milliseconds or more (that's 10 seconds for 1 packet to traverse the network!!!).

This is unusable for any of the work I do, which is highly interactive (telnet, secure shell and remote desktop), and is generally unusable for many other things as well. Most other folks find the performance unacceptable, or at best SLOW, which it is.

In speaking with Verizon, they have NO plans of upgrading their 3G network infrastructure. They are working on replacing the existing 3G network nationwide with something faster. However, the effort is being rolled out in the big cities and in densely populated areas - and it would surprise me if the Lake area were upgraded any time withing the next few years. Even then, I still can't imagine they could ever match a 750mHz to 1gHz bandwidth fibre connected broadband network (cable or FIOS).

FIOS is not available in the areas around the lake. DSL has very limited reach due to the technical restrictions that the distance from the central office (or DSL node) must be less than 18,000 feet (15,000 feet in some cases).

So, the only way to get good Internet to the island is to build it, until such time (if any) that Metrocast extends their cable system. Metrocast is currently conducting an engineering survey of Sleepers and Rattlesnake (I have been shuttling the Metrocast folks from the islands to the mainland) to determine what would be involved in extending their cable system cover these islands.

There are a lot of IFs to be met before Metrocast can extend their system - engineering feasibility, pole heights, minimum number of subscribers, legal issuse (easements, crossings, etc.), environmental factors, physical construction of underwater facilities and the list goes on...

So, until such time, if any, that we have some alternative form of high speed Internet, I guess I'll just build it myself and go from there ;)

Regards,

Steve