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Old 09-11-2007, 11:16 AM   #101
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I seem to recall that the owners will be fined per day if they don't make an honest attempt to recover the hazardous waste from the water way. It is a per day fine the state can levy,I think everything that can be done IS being done
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Old 09-11-2007, 11:39 AM   #102
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Default Fines

RG, I believe it is $1000 per 24 hours. If the owners call it in to a "professional" recovery company, they don't pay the fine from the time they make the call. But they have to pay for the recovery.
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Old 09-11-2007, 11:39 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip
The bulk of the search and cursory maintenance of security around the site has been handled by the New Hampshire Narine Patrol. Thus, no property tax revenue has been expended by this agency as it receives no funding from local property tax payers, as has already been discussed in previous posts about this agency's funding. The costs incurred by this agency have already been funded by the State's 07 operating budget, therefore this search will result in no new fees or registration increases.

The initial response by locally based emergency personnel was already paid for in the local community's 07 town budget, therefore there will be no increase in the property tax for the response, just as if they responded to a car accident or fire at your summer home.

If and when the vessel is salvaged and depending on the circumstances that contributed to the sinking, circumstances that are becoming painfully obvious none of us are privy to, then a determination will be made to if and how much responsibility the vessel's owners & insurance company may have.

Thank God the good people of New Hampshire provide, as a community resource, rescue & recovery services regardless of one's abiity to pay. I shudder to think of the untold tragedy that could occur if one had to calculate their potential financial liability before they dialed 911 to summon an ambulace, police officer or fire truck.

Yes, there are the handful of those who abuse the State's good will on occasion, and there is State law that allows the State to recover damages in those extreme cases. In this case however, it appears the only negligence to date is in the opinion of some folks attempting to assign culpability without a single shred of evidence!
Perfectly stated, as usual!
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Old 09-11-2007, 03:19 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diver1111
I really don't want to spend time on speculation about any of this but this morning I heard one possible I will in fact post for your consideration. A man whose opinion I respect suggested that the reason this boat sank could well have been due to the coolant hose for system cooling coming off. A boat like this might pump 30 gallons per minute through the cooling system and if the hose remained close to its' connection point it's also possible an over-heated engine might not be noticed. That's alot of water in-fast.

As to compensation, I started this as a volunteer and continue on that basis at this time. Business has been slow so it's a good time to work this.
You deserve very large Kudos for spending your time and gas on this enterprise. Nice to see that there are people like you here at the lake.

I have a Cobalt and have had no issues with it (knock on wood). However, I have found that with other toys, such as my snowmobile, it is not uncommon for hoses to be left off or not tightened by the dealer. Of course, this could also be a manufacturer defect.
I think that the poor owners are going to be caught in the middle until the boat is salvaged. I hope that they have insurance and that they can replace the boat. I don't think that I would want to try to recondition the boat, if I were them.
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Old 09-11-2007, 10:17 PM   #105
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Default Ok Ok Ok

I respect all of your opinions, save one, and Skip thank you for the facts concerning funding. Night Wing, go fly some somewhere else. Name calling isn't going to earn you any respect. This subject is too sensitive with the fact that a boat sank, no one knows why, and everyone is tip toeing around the issue and saying thank god no one was hurt, due to an insensitive comment made early on.
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Old 09-11-2007, 11:14 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineedles
I respect all of your opinions, save one, and Skip thank you for the facts concerning funding. Night Wing, go fly some somewhere else. Name calling isn't going to earn you any respect. This subject is too sensitive with the fact that a boat sank, no one knows why, and everyone is tip toeing around the issue and saying thank god no one was hurt, due to an insensitive comment made early on.
Excuse me, I did not call you any names. I posted the definition of paranoid because you were so worried that YOU might have to pay for the search in the form of some tax or fee. Better check behind the closet door and under the bed.
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Old 09-12-2007, 08:49 AM   #107
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Question Can A Big Wave Really Sink A Boat That Easlily?

Quote: The Eagle Tribune - September 02, 2007 12:00 am
“James Larsen's Cobalt Bowrider took on a big wave around 11:25 a.m., Marine Patrol Lt. Tim Dunleavy said. The eight people aboard donned their life jackets and jumped into the lake as the boat quickly filled with water and started to sink, Dunleavy said.”
We’ve had really big waves crash over our bow on big chop days and the water empties into the drain hole without a problem, of course we do get mighty wet. Were we really in jeopardy of sinking and just oblivious to the danger?

I sure hope the search for the boat will result in finding this elusive bugger. Best of luck to Diver1111 and the recovery crew, we’re rooting for you!
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:14 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Gal
Quote: The Eagle Tribune - September 02, 2007 12:00 am
“James Larsen's Cobalt Bowrider took on a big wave around 11:25 a.m., Marine Patrol Lt. Tim Dunleavy said. The eight people aboard donned their life jackets and jumped into the lake as the boat quickly filled with water and started to sink, Dunleavy said.”
We’ve had really big waves crash over our bow on big chop days and the water empties into the drain hole without a problem, of course we do get mighty wet. Were we really in jeopardy of sinking and just oblivious to the danger?

I sure hope the search for the boat will result in finding this elusive bugger. Best of luck to Diver1111 and the recovery crew, we’re rooting for you!
The problem with taking a wave over the bow on a boat like the 246 is that the water goes right into either the bow cockpit or the main cockpit. Now the boat is suddenly not only heavier but it has an unpredictable load balance since the water can slosh all over the place. If there's, say, 50 gallons of water added to the boat all of a sudden, that's 425 lbs of added weight that can suddenly roll from the main cockpit into the bow cockpit when the bow goes down on the next wave. That can easily cause the bow to stuff into the next wave and take on another 50 gallons or more of water. Now there's 850 pounds of water rolling around, imagine how tough it's gonna be to get the boat to ride up and over the next wave... The 246 is an awesome boat but it has low freeboard and a very pronounced downturn at the bow. That can't help. Look at the models that have replaced the 246 in Cobalt's line, they all have less droopy looking bows and lots more freeboard...

In rough water, a bowrider skipper would be wise to ensure that the bow canvas remains on. Wonder if that was the case here?
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Last edited by Dave R; 09-12-2007 at 10:36 AM.
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:30 AM   #109
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Default How about....

Is it possible that, based on everything we have read here, that what occured is this: The boat was fine until it got into a chop in the broads, at that point the coolant hose worked itself loosed (as it may not have been properly attached...I recall the poster who wrote about the "belt recall" on certain Cobalts, and he mentioned that the coolant hose had to be removed to get at the belt). So the boat was taking on water, without anyone knowing it, as they were under power. The captain realized there was a problem, and stopped. At that point (remembering the lake was "rough" that day) the stern was much too heavy, and as a result, sitting very low. A swell came over the stern, and that was the end. With all the resulting weight it was quickly submerged...and see ya later bye....
Have I missed something?
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:19 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa meredith
Is it possible that, based on everything we have read here, that what occured is this: The boat was fine until it got into a chop in the broads, at that point the coolant hose worked itself loosed (as it may not have been properly attached...I recall the poster who wrote about the "belt recall" on certain Cobalts, and he mentioned that the coolant hose had to be removed to get at the belt). So the boat was taking on water, without anyone knowing it, as they were under power. The captain realized there was a problem, and stopped. At that point (remembering the lake was "rough" that day) the stern was much too heavy, and as a result, sitting very low. A swell came over the stern, and that was the end. With all the resulting weight it was quickly submerged...and see ya later bye....
Have I missed something?
It seams to me you would need a lot more than 400lbs of water to upset the balance of that boat. I suspect like the above post there was significant water in the hull making the boat ride low. When stopping all the water rushes forward and the nose dives into the waves. Once the waves start coming over the bow repeatedly your done....
I am anxiously awaiting the facts on this one!!!
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:43 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Fun
It seams to me you would need a lot more than 400lbs of water to upset the balance of that boat. I suspect like the above post there was significant water in the hull making the boat ride low. When stopping all the water rushes forward and the nose dives into the waves. Once the waves start coming over the bow repeatedly your done....
I am anxiously awaiting the facts on this one!!!
My point was that if it stuffed a wave and took on 425 lbs of water without any extra weight on board, it's even more likley to take on water on the nextr wave with the extra weight on board. 50 gallons sounds like a lot but it actually takes up very little space (6.68 cubic feet, or one third of the capacity of a typical fridge) and could easily come over the bow. What if it took on 100 gallons on the first stuff?

I'm eager to discover the facts too.
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:47 AM   #112
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In a self-bailing boat, the deck is above the waterline and scuppers allow water to escape the boat. So a big wave over the bow will somewhat quickly leave the boat. Many bow riders are not self bailing, a big wave will slosh around as Dave R describes, eventually running into the bilge, where the bilge pump will pump it overboard. This takes time, during that time you may get another wave. Eventually you may not be able to keep up.

I've been out on the broads in big water in a bowrider, it is not fun. Keeping the canvas cover may help. The best approach is to avoid taking a wave over the bow. That means working very hard at the helm or staying home.

I post without any knowledge of the actual accident and do not suggest that this post relates to the actual events.
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:55 AM   #113
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Default Interesting thread...

...that started because a boat sank, but became truly interesting to read and observe with the multitude of reactions, wild speculation, accusations, finger pointing, facts, defenses, apologies, desire to sue, desire to just help without need of compensation, application of fines, concern over taxes, perceived personal attacks, some rational discussion and if we can somehow work in the sex of the operator we'll have just about covered it all!

However, what I find most interesting is that a 24 foot boat can be so hard to find. I would have previously assumed that with a rough idea of where it went down, a few divers, a few days and some technology like side scan sonar, it's an easy find. Maybe I've been watching too much CSI. Maybe this is also a nice reminder of just how big the lake can really be.
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:32 PM   #114
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An object (boat) may not go straight to the bottom. The hull could "plane" under water and carry the boat quite a distance. Good luck to those looking for it, tha'ts a BIG lake
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Old 09-12-2007, 03:36 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Gal
Quote: The Eagle Tribune - September 02, 2007 12:00 am
“James Larsen's Cobalt Bowrider took on a big wave around 11:25 a.m., Marine Patrol Lt. Tim Dunleavy said. The eight people aboard donned their life jackets and jumped into the lake as the boat quickly filled with water and started to sink, Dunleavy said.”
We’ve had really big waves crash over our bow on big chop days and the water empties into the drain hole without a problem, of course we do get mighty wet. Were we really in jeopardy of sinking and just oblivious to the danger?

I sure hope the search for the boat will result in finding this elusive bugger. Best of luck to Diver1111 and the recovery crew, we’re rooting for you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagletribune, same article
Last night, the Bowrider was being pulled to the surface to make sure the accident wasn't caused by a structural problem with the boat. There's no indication that the boat hit anything, he said. Dunleavy didn't know exactly how big the boat was, but said it was a good size.
Are we to really believe this article?

If so, why are they still looking for this boat?

Should someone tell the newspaper or the searchers the real deal on the boats location?
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Old 09-12-2007, 07:23 PM   #116
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Default Just some elaboration

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbathe
...However, what I find most interesting is that a 24 foot boat can be so hard to find. I would have previously assumed that with a rough idea of where it went down, a few divers, a few days and some technology like side scan sonar, it's an easy find. Maybe I've been watching too much CSI. Maybe this is also a nice reminder of just how big the lake can really be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirkaus
An object (boat) may not go straight to the bottom. The hull could "plane" under water and carry the boat quite a distance. Good luck to those looking for it, tha'ts a BIG lake
The problem I see it is that a 24' boat in the scheme of the lake is pretty small. And then add in as Pirkaus so accurately mentions the boat probably didn't fall like a brick. Even with the Sonar I would think it is quite like finding a needle in a hay stack. Remember by the time the divers get down to depth there visibility isn't that great. I believe earlier in the thread Diver gave some numbers on the visibility the divers had.... Then add in the limited time in the day....and the time a Diver can stay down..... I am sure they are all doing the best they can, it just takes time.....

Two things that have come up and I don't think have been answered unless I missed the answers....are when does the search get called off.... and just how big is the search area?
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Old 09-12-2007, 07:38 PM   #117
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Also something to consider is at what point does the cost of the search out weigh the amount of money in dispute? I am guessing that the cost of this boat was roughly $40-45,000??? The important point is that everyone survived and is well. Thankfully, there was traffic on the lake and the water was warm.
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:05 PM   #118
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Default Some observations on search

We have watched Diver1111 search and it seems to us to be about 1/3 of a mile x 1/3 of a mile area where they spend most of the time.
This calculates to about 70 acres.
With a 15 foot visibility this would require 4500
circles to cover all of that lake floor.

If our lot is any indication of what the underwater edge of the island is like, the boat probably slid for a while down a rough surface from this extinct volcano. We assume the boat had some buoyancy even after filling with water.

Our hat is off to diver1111 with the effort he is putting in. It must be difficult to think you have found the target so many times only to be disappointed.

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Old 09-12-2007, 09:14 PM   #119
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I really hope they find it soon to put all the theories to rest for once. No offense to anyone but this topic is getting stale.

On a funnier note, I have friend who was recently inspected by the coast guard here on the Delaware River. He failed the test because of pfd's that were the wrong size and fit for his kids. The coast guard would not allow him to continue under his own power and towed him to a marina to buy the right size pfd's before letting him go...with a warning.
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:20 PM   #120
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Default Fyi

Quote:
Originally Posted by NightWing
Excuse me, I did not call you any names. I posted the definition of paranoid because you were so worried that YOU might have to pay for the search in the form of some tax or fee. Better check behind the closet door and under the bed.
Your post of the word and its defintion indicated that you have diagnosed me as paranoid. Gee, I didn't see an M.D. appended to your name. You have assigned a label to me without proper qualifications and degrees. Hence, you have participated in name calling. In some arenas it could be called libel. Try calling me paranoid at the next forumfest and I don't have to be a lawyer to sue for this. Your latest post hasn't used a cut and paste approach to reponding to my post. Congratulations, your doing better, you actually had to think to resond. But, if the cut and paste approach is what you like then get the following:

The fundamental distinction between libel and slander lies solely in the form in which the defamatory matter is published. If the offending material is published in some fleeting form, as by spoken words or sounds, sign language, gestures and the like, then this is slander. If it is published in more durable form, for example in written words, film, compact disc (CD), DVD, blogging and the like, then it is considered libel.

Gee wiz Nightwing, since my identity is known to many people on this forum I guess you have already libeled me. Wanna think again about what you post?
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:27 PM   #121
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Default 2007 Cobalt 246

secondcurve wrote:
Quote:
Also something to consider is at what point does the cost of the search out weigh the amount of money in dispute? I am guessing that the cost of this boat was roughly $40-45,000???
From what I have read the price of a 2007 246 Cobalt ranges between $52,000 and just over $58,000. I suppose it could go higher if you add more whistles and bells.

http://www.epinions.com/boat-Boats-A...splay_~reviews

And having done business with Thurston's in the past I would say the price would be on the upper end of that spectrum.
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:29 PM   #122
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Pineedles, are you kidding? You think he LIBELED you??
Gee, then that means those that called me an **** have libeled me.

Secondcurve, that boat can easily be worth $75,000 MSRP depending on options and engine.
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:07 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineedles
Your post of the word and its defintion indicated that you have diagnosed me as paranoid. Gee, I didn't see an M.D. appended to your name. You have assigned a label to me without proper qualifications and degrees. Hence, you have participated in name calling. In some arenas it could be called libel. Try calling me paranoid at the next forumfest and I don't have to be a lawyer to sue for this. Your latest post hasn't used a cut and paste approach to reponding to my post. Congratulations, your doing better, you actually had to think to resond. But, if the cut and paste approach is what you like then get the following:

The fundamental distinction between libel and slander lies solely in the form in which the defamatory matter is published. If the offending material is published in some fleeting form, as by spoken words or sounds, sign language, gestures and the like, then this is slander. If it is published in more durable form, for example in written words, film, compact disc (CD), DVD, blogging and the like, then it is considered libel.

Gee wiz Nightwing, since my identity is known to many people on this forum I guess you have already libeled me. Wanna think again about what you post?
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wackjob
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:16 PM   #124
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineedles
Your post of the word and its defintion indicated that you have diagnosed me as paranoid. Gee, I didn't see an M.D. appended to your name. You have assigned a label to me without proper qualifications and degrees. Hence, you have participated in name calling. In some arenas it could be called libel. Try calling me paranoid at the next forumfest and I don't have to be a lawyer to sue for this. Your latest post hasn't used a cut and paste approach to reponding to my post. Congratulations, your doing better, you actually had to think to resond. But, if the cut and paste approach is what you like then get the following:

The fundamental distinction between libel and slander lies solely in the form in which the defamatory matter is published. If the offending material is published in some fleeting form, as by spoken words or sounds, sign language, gestures and the like, then this is slander. If it is published in more durable form, for example in written words, film, compact disc (CD), DVD, blogging and the like, then it is considered libel.

Gee wiz Nightwing, since my identity is known to many people on this forum I guess you have already libeled me. Wanna think again about what you post?
You have GOT to be kidding... It was a joke, and not overly nasty or rude at that. Hell, I was once called a lecherous old man and then told that I was being a 9 year old in the same thread. I did not lose sleep or sling defamation of character, it was a joke on both ends. If you have that much time on your hands to fire at nightwing maybe you should spend some time helping to search for that boat!

Let's get back on topic before this gets canned.
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Old 09-13-2007, 07:13 AM   #125
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Default Take it easy..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineedles
Your post of the word and its defintion indicated that you have diagnosed me as paranoid. Gee, I didn't see an M.D. appended to your name. You have assigned a label to me without proper qualifications and degrees. Hence, you have participated in name calling. In some arenas it could be called libel. Try calling me paranoid at the next forumfest and I don't have to be a lawyer to sue for this. Your latest post hasn't used a cut and paste approach to reponding to my post. Congratulations, your doing better, you actually had to think to resond. But, if the cut and paste approach is what you like then get the following:

The fundamental distinction between libel and slander lies solely in the form in which the defamatory matter is published. If the offending material is published in some fleeting form, as by spoken words or sounds, sign language, gestures and the like, then this is slander. If it is published in more durable form, for example in written words, film, compact disc (CD), DVD, blogging and the like, then it is considered libel.

Gee wiz Nightwing, since my identity is known to many people on this forum I guess you have already libeled me. Wanna think again about what you post?
Pineneedles and Nightwing, you two might want to take a deep breath here. It's been a long time since any forum member's priviledges were limited, but if you keep it up, the Webmaster might come a knockin'!!

BT
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Old 09-13-2007, 07:55 AM   #126
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Default To all

I tried to voice my concern over taxpayer's burden, and although I was wrong to assume that taxpayers would foot the bill, which I stated in a later post, it seems that nightwing decides it is appropriate to resort to name calling. Paranoid, Wackjob, and Winnipesaukee being called an ****? I have not responded in kind with similar name calling. I don't think I have crossed any line regarding bad behavior on-line here. If anyone is going to get kicked off the forum, I think most would agree it would be nightwing.

Yes, it would be nice to get back on topic. If the boat is leaking oil/gas, I wonder if sampling a calm surface of the water in the vicinity of the sinking could detect excessive oil/gas prescence, and thereby give a better idea of where to search?
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Old 09-13-2007, 12:14 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by secondcurve
Also something to consider is at what point does the cost of the search out weigh the amount of money in dispute?

I would imagine that would depend on whos pockets the $40-75K is coming from at the end of the day?
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Old 09-13-2007, 12:45 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolbreeze
I really hope they find it soon to put all the theories to rest for once. No offense to anyone but this topic is getting stale.
That is why there are so many threads to choose from. Some are not interesting to lots of folks. Something for everyone I guess. The last one out will turn out the lights.
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Old 09-13-2007, 02:09 PM   #129
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Default Activity?

Rattlesnake Guy (or Gal)...
Curious: If you are at the lake, is there any search activity today?
Thinking of taking a cruise out that way in the morning...
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Old 09-13-2007, 03:04 PM   #130
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Default None that I can see

There is a small boat with a bimini top slowly cruising in the area.. but I don't see any dive flags or dive boats there.

IG
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Old 09-13-2007, 04:24 PM   #131
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Arrow Nothing Going On

Today there has been nothing going on. There was a boat as IG described, but it wasn't one I recognized to be part of the search. It just looked like someone being curious.
R-Guy and I used our depth finder to check the slope to see what it was like and found it was steep near the shore and relatively flat near the current search area. Hopefully we will see some action again tomorrow.
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Old 09-13-2007, 06:10 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineedles
Your post of the word and its defintion indicated that you have diagnosed me as paranoid. Gee, I didn't see an M.D. appended to your name. You have assigned a label to me without proper qualifications and degrees. Hence, you have participated in name calling. In some arenas it could be called libel. Try calling me paranoid at the next forumfest and I don't have to be a lawyer to sue for this. Your latest post hasn't used a cut and paste approach to reponding to my post. Congratulations, your doing better, you actually had to think to resond. But, if the cut and paste approach is what you like then get the following:

The fundamental distinction between libel and slander lies solely in the form in which the defamatory matter is published. If the offending material is published in some fleeting form, as by spoken words or sounds, sign language, gestures and the like, then this is slander. If it is published in more durable form, for example in written words, film, compact disc (CD), DVD, blogging and the like, then it is considered libel.

Gee wiz Nightwing, since my identity is known to many people on this forum I guess you have already libeled me. Wanna think again about what you post?
Oh my goodness. My stomach hurts from laughing so hard. Didn't you ever hear "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me?"

It's really not that serious. Thanks for the laugh though!
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:11 PM   #133
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Default Winni Girl

Hey Newbie,

Glad I could provide you with some humor, but that is partially what this forum is about, although that was not the purpose of my post. Too bad you couldn't see that personal attacks are not what this forum is about. Hope your next 190 posts go as well as your 19 posts to date. As far as I'm concerned, your opinion isn't one that I'll be interested in in the future.
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:40 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineedles
Hey Newbie,

Glad I could provide you with some humor, but that is partially what this forum is about, although that was not the purpose of my post. Too bad you couldn't see that personal attacks are not what this forum is about. Hope your next 190 posts go as well as your 19 posts to date. As far as I'm concerned, your opinion isn't one that I'll be interested in in the future.
Could have fooled me...
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Old 09-14-2007, 07:41 AM   #135
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THEY FOUND IT TODAY!!! and are in the process of pulling it up...

(I'm talking about the anchor I lost this summer in front of my house )
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Old 09-14-2007, 08:41 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineedles
Hey Newbie, ........... Hope your next 190 posts go as well as your 19 posts to date. As far as I'm concerned, your opinion isn't one that I'll be interested in in the future.

Pineneedles --

That just wasn't called for !!


What is with this Forum lately, we have attacks (not humerous by any standard) occurring in this thread & in the threads regarding "speed limits" with two or three other members battling it out on-line over there ?? Geeeessshh

Step away from the Keyboard folks, take a boat ride, visit the kids, take an escape week-end trip to the mountains ........... do something, but this is getting stale fast (in my humble opinion)
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Old 09-14-2007, 08:44 AM   #137
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Chill Out!!!!!
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Old 09-14-2007, 09:25 AM   #138
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Exclamation Try PMing Each Other

If you were at a dinner party talking face to face with all the people in this thread, would it be this obnoxious? You could take it over to personal messaging where we won’t see all this nonsense. Let’s try to stay on the topic of the Cobalt sinking. This has been a very informative thread, which could actually save someone’s life one day.
Hopefully today is the day!
Thanks.
RG
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Old 09-14-2007, 11:48 AM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineedles
Hey Newbie,

Looks like winnigirl has been on the forum since 2005? She might be a lurker, as I am, but she doesn't appear to be a newbie.

How about this pharse my mother always said, "If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all". I think more than one person on this thread needs to remember this childhood lesson.
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Old 09-14-2007, 01:58 PM   #140
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Default Are you for real?!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineedles
Your post of the word and its defintion indicated that you have diagnosed me as paranoid. Gee, I didn't see an M.D. appended to your name. You have assigned a label to me without proper qualifications and degrees. Hence, you have participated in name calling. In some arenas it could be called libel. Try calling me paranoid at the next forumfest and I don't have to be a lawyer to sue for this. Your latest post hasn't used a cut and paste approach to reponding to my post. Congratulations, your doing better, you actually had to think to resond. But, if the cut and paste approach is what you like then get the following:

The fundamental distinction between libel and slander lies solely in the form in which the defamatory matter is published. If the offending material is published in some fleeting form, as by spoken words or sounds, sign language, gestures and the like, then this is slander. If it is published in more durable form, for example in written words, film, compact disc (CD), DVD, blogging and the like, then it is considered libel.

Gee wiz Nightwing, since my identity is known to many people on this forum I guess you have already libeled me. Wanna think again about what you post?
Please, please tell me there is some other underlying beef between the two of you (Pineneedles & Nightwing) and this thread is not the cause of all of this nonsense...

Pure comedy!!
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Old 09-14-2007, 02:02 PM   #141
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Default Now who is name calling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineedles
Hey Newbie,

Glad I could provide you with some humor, but that is partially what this forum is about, although that was not the purpose of my post. Too bad you couldn't see that personal attacks are not what this forum is about. Hope your next 190 posts go as well as your 19 posts to date. As far as I'm concerned, your opinion isn't one that I'll be interested in in the future.
Hey Winnigirl - looks like you've got grounds for a lawsuit too!!
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Old 09-14-2007, 02:34 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Gal
Let’s try to stay on the topic of the Cobalt sinking.
RG
What? A boat sank? When?
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Old 09-14-2007, 02:36 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winni P
Please, please tell me there is some other underlying beef between the two of you (Pineneedles & Nightwing) and this thread is not the cause of all of this nonsense...

Pure comedy!!
I am out of it. It started when an individual was whining about maybe having to pay for the sunken boat charges through increased taxes. I posted the definition of paranoid (tongue in cheek). His response was to rant about slander and libel. I posted a link for a slang definition. That's it. Done. A couple of posters criticized him for taking things too seriously. He responded by saying one of them was making a personal attack and said he wasn't interested in her opinion. I do not know who he is and don't care to know.
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Old 09-14-2007, 05:57 PM   #144
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Default Ridiculous & Juvenile

Some of these posts remind me of being around 10 years old in grammar school. Thanks for bringing back fond memories of my childhood.

Now, how about getting back on track & discussing the tragic sinking of the boat.
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Old 09-14-2007, 09:22 PM   #145
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Default To all recent responders

I see that my non-name calling posts and calm responses to attacks can't get through to many of you. So I will withdraw from this forum for an undetermined time. Don, thanks for the opportunity to post. I have tried to be a decent forum participant, but it seems that my posts are not to the liking of a number of people. GWC, I am dissapointed in your response, particulary since we did meet at the forum in 2006. For you others, raise a great hooray! You have successfully pushed me out. I don't need to deal with these personal attacks.
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Old 09-14-2007, 10:16 PM   #146
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Quote:
So I will withdraw from this forum for an undetermined time.
Kay. Bye!

Newbie because she has 19 posts? Thats like the seniors in high school picking on the freshman!

I'd post the definition of "obnoxious," but am afraid I'll be getting something in the mail from the Internet Police.


Anyway, what is the status of the boat?
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Old 09-14-2007, 10:57 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineedles
I see that my non-name calling posts and calm responses to attacks can't get through to many of you. So I will withdraw from this forum for an undetermined time. Don, thanks for the opportunity to post. I have tried to be a decent forum participant, but it seems that my posts are not to the liking of a number of people. GWC, I am dissapointed in your response, particulary since we did meet at the forum in 2006. For you others, raise a great hooray! You have successfully pushed me out. I don't need to deal with these personal attacks.
It's not my desire to disappoint you; but I have yet to attend a Forum Fest.

Don't know whom you met; but surely it was not I.

The Forum is a way for many of us to maintain some degree of sanity; although the opposite may seem true when reading some of the posts, especially mine. If you think it's rough in your chair, imagine how rough life must be for the Webmaster. He has to read every one of my post; not just a few. Remember, those viewing the various posts have the option to not read a post by a certain member; but the Webmaster has to read every one of my posts.
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Old 09-15-2007, 08:54 AM   #148
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Default Buh-bye

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineedles
I see that my non-name calling posts and calm responses to attacks can't get through to many of you. So I will withdraw from this forum for an undetermined time. Don, thanks for the opportunity to post. I have tried to be a decent forum participant, but it seems that my posts are not to the liking of a number of people. GWC, I am dissapointed in your response, particulary since we did meet at the forum in 2006. For you others, raise a great hooray! You have successfully pushed me out. I don't need to deal with these personal attacks.
Pineneedles,

non-name calling posts?!! Can you honestly say there was no negative connotation to calling Winnigirl "Newbie"? Sounds like name calling to me...

I didn't see anything CALM about your reponses either. Maybe it would be best to take a break and do a little self-reflection at this point.

Good luck and buh-bye
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:19 AM   #149
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Default searching...

Wow...enough of this nonsense. A couple of playful "jabs", I believe, is fine. But this is just foolishness. Anyway...
I took a cruise out by Rattlesnake yesterday, saw the orange markers dotting the lake, but just a single boat. I'm curious...If it was Diver1111, and he has already told us he is simply a volunteer, who is officially running the recovery effort? And why so few boats/ people involved. Perhaps it is no longer a priority? I'm hopefull the the final entry in this thread is a detailed story from Boat Guy64 about everything that happened on that afternoon, and about the people that came to their aid.
Perhaps Coach Belichick video taped the whole event.
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:34 AM   #150
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It appears that what some posters are experiencing and displaying in their posts and tantrums (acting out) are directly related to a mild mental disorder.
I personally know about this mental disorder and am happy to say that I have successfully completed my 5th week of a program to recovery. The syndrome has professionally been labeled the "Winnipesaukee Lake Withrawl Syndrome" WLWS for short.
No, sorry to say Riddelin won't help, prozac makes me sleepy and not in the mood for sex; and drinking, well, reminds me of coctail hours spent on the dock.
WLWS has one cure, and when next August comes, consider me healed.
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:26 AM   #151
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Unhappy Calm down and get back to the point!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Gal
If you were at a dinner party talking face to face with all the people in this thread, would it be this obnoxious? You could take it over to personal messaging where we won’t see all this nonsense. Let’s try to stay on the topic of the Cobalt sinking. This has been a very informative thread, which could actually save someone’s life one day.
Hopefully today is the day!
Thanks.
RG
RG and others with similar posts are right. This thread is about an unfortunate accident (sinking) involving a boat but the 8 passengers were rescued with no injuries and that is the most positive thing of this.

We are all waiting to see the boat raised and to know what really happened. None of us were there and our curious minds want to know just what happened. The true story may help us and others to prevent such a thing happening to us.

How about a BIG thanks to the boater who rescued those 4 adults and 4 children. They were the heros that day. I can't imagine being Boat Guy 64 and feeling the stress with a boat sinking and getting their passengers off the boat safely. As we all know the "Captain" is responsible for their passengers,

Ranting and arguing gets no one any where. JMHO
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:43 AM   #152
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Unhappy Sorry You Have Decided to Leave Us Pineedles

Quote:
Originally Posted by GWC...
It's not my desire to disappoint you; but I have yet to attend a Forum Fest.
Why haven't we seen you at any of the Fests? I, for one, would like to put a face to the witty character.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sa meredith
I took a cruise out by Rattlesnake yesterday, saw the orange markers dotting the lake, but just a single boat. I'm curious...If it was Diver1111
No, I don't think we saw Diver1111 at all yesterday. Hopefully they will all be back later or tomorrow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineedles
You have successfully pushed me out. I don't need to deal with these personal attacks.
Pineedles, I’m sorry you have decided to leave us. I think you are only punishing yourself. Unfortunately the written word cannot translate well when a person is ribbing you in a fun way or if they are being aggressive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineedles
For those of us that CAN'T vote, you who can should voice your concern as to enforcing all existing laws regarding laws that may have been broken as well as reponsible parties laws. As well as compensation that the State, County, and Town are forthcoming to them, due to the costs that have been incurred. (MP patrols around dive site). Apologies to the registered owners of this vessel, but we must have complete responsibility taken care of before we, the unheard from are asked to PAY MORE in taxes. Who is going to pay for this search? Sorry, No smilie faces.
Re-read your post, I think what you were trying to ask came across wrong to anyone who read it. You sound angry and aggressive, was that your intention?

At least one of the people who were on the boat when it sank spent the whole, and I mean the whole day last Saturday on the lake trying to assist in the search. That doesn’t sound like they are being irresponsible.

Hopefully soon this boat will rise to the surface and tell its story. I am also hoping that boat_guy64 can fill us in on some details when the time comes. Knowing what happened and how to avoid it, could save someone’s life one day. Knowledge can be a great tool.

Diver1111 and the Sea Tow gang, keep your chin up! You’ll find her yet!
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Old 09-15-2007, 11:46 AM   #153
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I was on the lake with friends on 8-18 and could easily understand how a bow rider could be swamped. I kept the bow cover on and for good reason. With 30 + years on the lake, I got a good (unpleasant) education. After 4 hours of hiding at Shibley"s, we made a much smoother return to our point of origin. I am looking for swell height if anyone knows it from that day.
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Old 09-15-2007, 02:57 PM   #154
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Default wave height

At Black Cat , in the northwestern end of the lake, the waves were running 1 to 1.5 feet all day, with white caps. I photographed a jetskier getting a few inches of air off some of the waves.

The area where the boat went down is about 10 miles southeast of Black Cat, with no obstructions (straight line of sight.) The wind and waves were blowing toward that direction (from the northwest.) In my experience boating the length of the lake in NW winds, the waves around Rattlesnake/The Broads have always been about twice the size of those I found when I got back to Black Cat.

Back in the early 80s, I was out with my family in The Broads where we encountered 4-5 footers coming from the NW. We were in a 17' bowrider and we were terrified - very, very, close to sinking due to water over the bow. Dad had us put the canvas on, ordered life jackets for all adults (we kids already had them) and he somehow managed to straddle the waves rather than point right into them, until we got near shore. We made it home by hugging the shore until we had islands to shelter us from the waves.

I remember a few of those waves were high enough so I couldn't see over their tops. That was frightening.

The lake is similar to Mount Washington in many ways - its weather varies greatly from place to place and is very unpredictable. Wave heights and wind can vary from one square mile to the next - just as on Mt. Washington. When I got into winter climbing I discovered there are some conditions where the wind on Lion's Head (well below the summit) can be a lot stronger than the wind on the summit - who woulda thought? But the same sort of weirdness is true on our lake as well.

The lake is a reflection of that mountain - literally and meteorologically.

I always thought this lake would be a good candidate for a couple of well-placed NOAA Weather Buoys that measure wave height/period. They'd probably do it, if enough citizens (like us) approached the local National Weather Service office and came up with a way to fund them.

One thing the NWS used to do, but doesn't do anymore, was issue a daily recreational marine forecast for the lake. They continue to issue one for the higher summits of the White Mountains (4,000' +) and the Vermont office of the NWS (in Burlington) issues marine forecasts for Lake Champlain that many boaters rely on, but the NWS in Concord discontinued their Winnipesaukee marine forecasts about the same time they relocated in Gray, Maine. Perhaps it's time a bunch of us pester them to start that service back up again.
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:42 PM   #155
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Question Back on Topic

Nice to see this thread back on topic...frankly, it was getting silly.

OK...what is going on with the Cobalt? Is there a definitive plan to search for it? What area has been searched and what areas are going to be searched?

Jetskier
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:15 PM   #156
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Default keep it on track

yes, let's please stay on topic.

Many of us are truly interested in learning the cause of the sinking. There will be a lesson learned for all of us.

Peter
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:39 PM   #157
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I hope that everyone knows that if caught in heavy seas, you are supposed to go over the waves at a 45 degree angle, NOT straight on or parallel to them.
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Old 09-15-2007, 11:19 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanisLupusArctos
At Black Cat , in the northwestern end of the lake, the waves were running 1 to 1.5 feet all day, with white caps. I photographed a jetskier getting a few inches of air off some of the waves.

The area where the boat went down is about 10 miles southeast of Black Cat, with no obstructions (straight line of sight.) The wind and waves were blowing toward that direction (from the northwest.) In my experience boating the length of the lake in NW winds, the waves around Rattlesnake/The Broads have always been about twice the size of those I found when I got back to Black Cat.

Back in the early 80s, I was out with my family in The Broads where we encountered 4-5 footers coming from the NW. We were in a 17' bowrider and we were terrified - very, very, close to sinking due to water over the bow. Dad had us put the canvas on, ordered life jackets for all adults (we kids already had them) and he somehow managed to straddle the waves rather than point right into them, until we got near shore. We made it home by hugging the shore until we had islands to shelter us from the waves.

I remember a few of those waves were high enough so I couldn't see over their tops. That was frightening.

The lake is similar to Mount Washington in many ways - its weather varies greatly from place to place and is very unpredictable. Wave heights and wind can vary from one square mile to the next - just as on Mt. Washington. When I got into winter climbing I discovered there are some conditions where the wind on Lion's Head (well below the summit) can be a lot stronger than the wind on the summit - who woulda thought? But the same sort of weirdness is true on our lake as well.

The lake is a reflection of that mountain - literally and meteorologically.

I always thought this lake would be a good candidate for a couple of well-placed NOAA Weather Buoys that measure wave height/period. They'd probably do it, if enough citizens (like us) approached the local National Weather Service office and came up with a way to fund them.

One thing the NWS used to do, but doesn't do anymore, was issue a daily recreational marine forecast for the lake. They continue to issue one for the higher summits of the White Mountains (4,000' +) and the Vermont office of the NWS (in Burlington) issues marine forecasts for Lake Champlain that many boaters rely on, but the NWS in Concord discontinued their Winnipesaukee marine forecasts about the same time they relocated in Gray, Maine. Perhaps it's time a bunch of us pester them to start that service back up again.
CanisLupusArctos:

Thanks for your post. You always have something inteilligent and interesting to add. I'm glad you are an active, contributing member.

Now, this thread has veered off on a number of unrelated twists and turns since the unfortunate sinking. Boat Guy 64 has held his tongue for sometime given his understandable displeasure with some of the earlier posts on this thread. I hope that maybe he might have something to add given the passage of time and the successful rescue of everyone involved. I believe that everyone on the board is truly interested in what happened and what might have been prevented to avoid the accident. I know that my worse fear as a boater is a similar incident perhaps at a time when the water is even colder and the boat traffic less active. Boat Guy 64 any input would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 09-16-2007, 02:34 PM   #159
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Default Cobalt found

Garry Kozak forwarded this to me. Located 9-13-07.
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Old 09-16-2007, 04:17 PM   #160
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Wow, looks like a picture from the moon. Good job guys. How deep is it?
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Old 09-16-2007, 04:18 PM   #161
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Thanks for sharing the image and congrats on a job well done by all involved.
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Old 09-16-2007, 08:28 PM   #162
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Default In the interest of education

As this thread is taking a bit of a turn to big waves playing a potential starting role, I have a question.

We have a bow rider as well. Our place is close to where the boat went down. We have tremendous respect for how strong the waves can be when they come from the NW on this part of the lake. While on shore we love seeing the many faces of the lake and waves.

I have always avoided the 45 degree approach and taken the strategy of going straight into the waves with the bow up. My reduced speed and tilting the motor up a bit to keep my bow out of trouble. People and their weight behind the windshield. If I need to go in a direction other than straight into the big ones, I travel past and then travel with the waves and time my speed so I stay in the low or pressing against the uphill side of the wave in front.

We see a lot of waves where we are. I am not talking about those. I am talking about the 1 or 2 days per year when their is a 25mph wind creating the "rollers" from center harbor down to Alton bay.

As you can imagine, we see an awful lot of folks slowly making there way north on these days and it seems like heading straight up seems to be a common approach for the size of the lake waves and boats.

Yes, some days we abort the mission or wait until things calm down a bit.

What do you think?
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Old 09-16-2007, 10:03 PM   #163
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Question Very Interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diver1111
Garry Kozak forwarded this to me. Located 9-13-07.
Interesting picture...

So, how deep is it and is the boat now going to be raised?

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Old 09-17-2007, 05:27 AM   #164
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Quote:
We have a bow rider as well. Our place is close to where the boat went down. We have tremendous respect for how strong the waves can be when they come from the NW on this part of the lake. While on shore we love seeing the many faces of the lake and waves.

I have always avoided the 45 degree approach and taken the strategy of going straight into the waves with the bow up. My reduced speed and tilting the motor up a bit to keep my bow out of trouble. People and their weight behind the windshield. If I need to go in a direction other than straight into the big ones, I travel past and then travel with the waves and time my speed so I stay in the low or pressing against the uphill side of the wave in front.
A lot of what Rattlesnake guy says here makes sense. Waves characteristics are very different and fetch is what will determine it's characteristic.

Wakes are another story. Taking a wake at a 45 degree angle works best for us in our sailboat and keeps us dryer and more stable

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Old 09-17-2007, 06:26 AM   #165
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Very briefly, I have to go in a minute.

Straight on, i.e., 90 degrees up and down waves, you risk going down a wave and "dipping" your bow in the next wave.

"Surfing down" a wave, i.e., riding DOWN the face at the same speed of the wave, you risk the same as above.

"Surfing up" a wave, i.e., riding UP the face at the same speed of the wave, you risk the wave behind you catching up and crashing over your transom.

Going parallel to the waves, you risk rolling the boat into a capsize or throwing crew overboard.

The above mostly apply to fairly rough conditions. You want to take the waves at a 45 degree angle so you distribute the rolling motion over both the boat's axes. It may not feel right, but "trust me," it is the best way. This applies to going "up current" and "down current." Think zig-zagging.

...

I have a page from a Coast Guard manual with pictures of everything above. I'll try to remember to scan and post it later today.

...

Shifting the weight aft, drive up, and trying to "glide" through the waves (letting the flat part of the hull behind the V-bow absorb the waves) puts HUGE stress on the superstructure of the hull. Try to use as much of the bow as possible to safely cut through the water.

Hope that explains things a bit better.
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Old 09-17-2007, 07:26 AM   #166
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I was always taught by my Dad to take the waves at a 45 too.
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Old 09-17-2007, 07:27 AM   #167
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The side scan picture is spooky. I got chills just looking at it.
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Old 09-17-2007, 11:28 AM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy
We see a lot of waves where we are. I am not talking about those. I am talking about the 1 or 2 days per year when their is a 25mph wind creating the "rollers" from center harbor down to Alton bay.

Yes, some days we abort the mission or wait until things calm down a bit.

What do you think?
Do you mean the one or two *summer* days? This time of year it happens all the time. I remember one October day a few years ago when the wind blew out of the NW at 30-40 mph - everyone was commenting on its strength around town. The next day someone said the captain of the MOUNT was in The Broads and had to evacuate the first deck for the fact that the waves were coming up to the windows. A few years later I met one of the captains and although I forgot to ask him about that particular day, I did ask about the worst conditions he'd sailed in. He said when the wind gets feisty out of the NW (usually this time of year) he's been in The Broads and felt the ship rocking enough to make stomachs queasy.

On a side-note, in less-dangerous conditions taking a wave/wake at a 45-deg. angle is also the best way to soak people up front (provided you *know* the boat can safely handle the wave with people up front.)

Straight on = bruised bums

Parallel = seasick kids

Riding into the wave = bump-bump-bump

Riding with the wave (but overtaking the wave) = splash-splash-splash

Whenever Dad got devious and wanted to get us kids drenched, he'd find the Mail Boat and come up the middle of its wake (in the calm part) and then exit by overtaking the waves - not fast enough to damage the hull, but not slow enough to allow flowing water over the bow rail. The result was a torrential 2-second rainstorm that forced its way into eyes, noses, ears, mouths... but without getting any water in the bilge.

So anyway... I'm as curious as anyone: Where's the sunken boat, how deep, when will it be raised...
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Old 09-17-2007, 12:02 PM   #169
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This situation has made me ponder how my own kids would handle such an event. As a matter of course, we have talked about basic boating safety and each year we add a little boating knowledge, but I am curious to know if any other parents out there have spoken with thier kids about how to handle a situation with a boat going down...is there a good way to do this without freaking out the kids next time they step on a boat?
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Old 09-17-2007, 02:26 PM   #170
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My wife and I talk with our daughter about safety and what to do in an emergency all the time. She has grown up on the water and on boats but I still have concern because you never know in that situation if panic will set in or if all the talking about being safe on the water will prevail
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Old 09-17-2007, 02:44 PM   #171
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Salukigirl -- It has been a long standing practice of ours (my son/wife/I) to have periodic discussions of what we'd do, who'd do what, or where various items (given a particular emergancy) are located.

We have been doing this since my son was around 10 or 12 years old. Old enough in our opinion to be an active help, given the situation. The topic of any particular discussion comes up based on events that eithor happened around us or we've heard of (such as the Cobolt going down in a matter of seconds). And we've revisited discussions that revolve around that sort of event.

A couple of "for instances" are --

We routinely have our grandchildren aboard (three under the age of 5) -- Even though they always wear PFD's, we've discussed specificaly who grabs who in an event such as just occurred (and we've had this discussion long before the Cobolt). In addition, although (as with most of us) the vast majority of our PFD's are stored away -- there is always 3 "Ski Jacket" type pfd's directly in front of the helm with very easy access.

Another discussion involved an ice skater breaking through the ice -- we've had "verbal drills" as to what steps to take in the event it might be one of us or we directly witness such an event.

(back to boating) I of all people got a nasty gash years ago when I slipped and ripped my arm on the windshield passing thru the passageway on a bowrider -- we now have a fully stocked med kit aboard and everyone knows where it is. On a side note, we created our own kit vs. one of those store bought versions which only have a couple of bandages and a host of other useless stuff. We simply took a tupperware container and a trip to CVS.

Another situation occurred this past Labor Day week-end. My son & I came upon on overturned kyak in 2-3 ft cross-chop in front of the Wiers. My son, now 26 and a very, very strong swimmer, jumped in with a throw PFD to help the struggling Kyaker out and help get both the person & the Kyak alongside. All ended well and there were no issues. Later that day My son & I reviewed the events -- We screwed up!! -- He should never have jumped in (in our collective opinions) before taking the extra 60 seconds it would have taken to put in one of the "Ski Jackets". Lessons learned for the next time!!

Finally, and I will stop this long winded reply -- you seemed concerned that the kids may get "freeked out" -- my retort to that is -- if they are old enough to be driving the vessel (or any other boat, including rowboat) by themselves -- then they MUST know the risks & what the proper thing to do is. Freeked out or not -- They'll remember and perhaps be a little more careful themselves. Remeber, kids don't have the experiance or knowledge and are typically fearless.
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Old 09-17-2007, 03:01 PM   #172
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Default many questions

So, now we know the boat was located on Thursday (I'm assuming the location is the triangle of orange markers I saw about 200 yards off the coast of Rattlesnake on Friday afternoon)...but there are many questions...
Someone must know when the boat is going to be "floated", or if it has been, who has custody of it. Also, perhaps, an indication of what went wrong. I'm guessing that, upon inspection, it is going to be relatively easy to see the trouble. Maybe, mabe not...but the coolant hose is going to off or on.
Also, perhaps Boat Guy64 can soon tell the whole story of that day. That is what I am waiting for...
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Old 09-17-2007, 04:19 PM   #173
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Default Boat Sinking-speculation....

I would be willing to bet that the water circulator pump hose came off the thermostat housing or the pump itself & it filled up the boat while still allowing the engine to run near normal temperature parameters. I have personally seen this happen two other times but both were caught when the bilge pump started running constantly. A boat that size is not required to have positive flotation. Let this be a lesson to all the idiots that go boating with their children on board not wearing life jackets. They save lives.....even if they are "awkward & uncomfortable". Kudos to this boat owner for having the kids in the correct equipment & having the correct safety items on board for just such a accident.
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Old 09-17-2007, 04:59 PM   #174
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Default Questions

Several questions come to my mind too. Things like: Who decides whether to bring the boat to the surface? Who actually does this? Who will be responsible for doing the "autopsy" on the boat - is it an independent entity that does not have a financial stake in the outcome? What happens to the boat - is it possible that an insurance company could decide that the boat is not "totalled" and that they would only provide funds to re-condition the boat?
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Old 09-17-2007, 08:23 PM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salukigirl
I am curious to know if any other parents out there have spoken with thier kids about how to handle a situation with a boat going down...is there a good way to do this without freaking out the kids next time they step on a boat?
When I was a career EMT earlier in life I discovered something (in general):

Parents who freak out have children who freak out. Parents who stay calm have children who stay calm.

Of course there are exceptions. There are children who make their parents wonder where the genes came from (the milkman?) but in general, when parents stay calm and think, the kids follow the example.

Strange thing is, on a lot of calls I went to that involved kids, the kids were calm and level-headed while the parents weren't.

The best thing for kids (and adults) to do is get lots of knowledge and hands-on experience with things that frighten them. You never know - they might even find those things interesting. When I was a child there was an approaching hurricane that totally freaked me out. By the time it passed I'd learned all kinds of things about hurricanes and I thought meteorology was the coolest subject ever (I still do.)

Have the kids ever floated in the middle of the lake while wearing a life jacket, just to get the feel of it? Swim lessons are vital.

We live in a world that seems to be freaking out more and more easily every day - it is not to our advantage. Any baseball fan can attest: Even the best Cy Young Award-winning pitcher is completely worthless when the other team's batters have undermined his ability to think calmly.
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Old 09-17-2007, 08:34 PM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Pine
Several questions come to my mind too. Things like: Who decides whether to bring the boat to the surface? Who actually does this? Who will be responsible for doing the "autopsy" on the boat - is it an independent entity that does not have a financial stake in the outcome? What happens to the boat - is it possible that an insurance company could decide that the boat is not "totalled" and that they would only provide funds to re-condition the boat?
After spending a few weeks at the bottom the boat will most likely be totalled, especially being that the boat only had 6 hours on it. The cost to repair/rebuild this boat to new is probably more than replacement cost. Hopefully the boat was insured for actual cash value, with a high enough agreed hull value set.

A marine surveyor hired by the insurance company will be the entity that determines what happened and what will happen going forward. Depending on the insurance company this may or may not be a good thing. Again, the type of coverage is key here.

This does not mean however that someone may buy it from the insurance company, clean it up and resell it themselves. You may find it on Ebay some day...
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Old 09-18-2007, 11:32 AM   #177
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"This does not mean however that someone may buy it from the insurance company, clean it up and resell it themselves"

The sad thing in NH is that they don't title boats so an unsuspecting buyer may never know they bought a sunk boat... Or there is a concept of a salvage title here?

That scanner photo is pretty darn amazing.
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Old 09-18-2007, 11:54 AM   #178
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Default Orientation?

It's hard to tell just how the boat is sitting on the bottom. It looks like it's upright resting on the starboard side.
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Old 09-18-2007, 12:02 PM   #179
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Bottom looks rather unremarkable, too. (At least on one side)

Good find!
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Old 09-18-2007, 12:28 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanisLupusArctos

Have the kids ever floated in the middle of the lake while wearing a life jacket, just to get the feel of it? Swim lessons are vital.
This is something we have done in our family for many years. Sometime through active envolvment in water skiing, and other just by jumping off the boat too cool off. But everyone in the family has had deep water experience with a life jacket, and knows how well they work.... we don't always tell the kids we are doing it so they are ready for an accident. But in some sense we are...everyone in the family is comfortable in knowing the the life jacket will save them.

An addtional note someone mentioned having a few ski vest handy when out of the boat for the day just incase, I do this also. I also go as far as to pull enough jackets out of their storage spot for everyone on board when the lake is rough. Not that I am uncomfortable or anything, The lake has only scared me once (plenty of days when I wouldn't go out, but only one day where I was out and got nervous). But as I tell everyone you never know what can happen, and I want everyone to be ready as quick as possible. And when I have nervous passangers I just have them put the vest on .imediately....
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Old 09-18-2007, 01:30 PM   #181
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Default Ebay

Quote:
Originally Posted by codeman671
You may find it on Ebay some day...
The funny thing is, the seller of a previously-sunken boat on Ebay could probably get more money with total honesty than by hiding the truth. Has anyone ever watched Jay Leno's "Stuff We Found On Ebay" segments? All the seller would have to do is say the boat spent several days near the deepest part of "The famous Lake Winnipesaukee," mention films like 'On Golden Pond' and 'What About Bob,' say something about the French president recently staying here, and before you know it, someone would bid twice its original sale price.

I can just see Jay Leno asking his audience now: "Sunken boat from famous lake--sold or unsold? SOLD!"
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Old 09-18-2007, 03:10 PM   #182
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Default Someone must know something.....

Noone has any idea of the current status of the recovery???
Rattlesnake Gal...where are you? You've done a great job of being our "eyes" thru most of this. Any activity today? (or maybe you are not at the lake; neither am I)
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Old 09-18-2007, 03:29 PM   #183
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We were out there about 8:30 this morning. Nothing happening although there was a barge heading in the direction to the site..not sure if that was its destination however.
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:03 PM   #184
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Default Here's What I Heard

I drove around the site today about 6pm. No activity. However, I heard that the boat is in 103 feet of water and will be raised tomorrow.
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:25 PM   #185
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Senter Cove Guy:

Thanks for the update. It's has been radio silence for quite a while. I'm looking forward to getting more information about this unfortunate incident so as to learn something useful for the future. Perhaps you divers can tell us exactly how a boat is raised from 103 feet? Does a diver go that deep to hook on the line or do they fish for the boat? Does the recovery team bring the boat onto a barge? What agency is responsible for the recovery effort? Did Diver 1111 have a role in the location of the boat? How about in the recovery effort scheduled for tomorrow?

Boat Guy 64 are you out there? If so, can you add anything at this time?
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:32 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin
I also go as far as to pull enough jackets out of their storage spot for everyone on board when the lake is rough. ..

LI, you better darn well have a preserver out for every passenger onboard and a throwable device all the time. If it ends up that this boat sank due to a disconnected raw water intake hose or something similar is the perfect reason. Many times you don't have time to go opening compartments to get to a preserver.

I'd hate to have to live with that guilt. "Oh yeah, I had a preserver for Timmy but it was stowed away when the boat sank."

CZ
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:36 PM   #187
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One more point, every now and then you hear about people drowning due to the boat sinking or whatever, and the CG finds the preservers still wrapped in the plastic from the time of purchase.
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Old 09-18-2007, 11:26 PM   #188
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Readily accessible (within arms reach) is one of the requirements for PFDs.
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Old 09-18-2007, 11:30 PM   #189
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Thanks Nightwing, that is what I thought the protocol was but as I always have them at arms reach I never worried about it.

CZ
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Old 09-18-2007, 11:43 PM   #190
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Diver1111, is there something small and inexpensive that if on or in my boat would make it easier to find in 110 feet of water?
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Old 09-18-2007, 11:46 PM   #191
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Yeah, my mother in law!
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Old 09-19-2007, 12:43 AM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Zipper
LI, you better darn well have a preserver out for every passenger onboard and a throwable device all the time. If it ends up that this boat sank due to a disconnected raw water intake hose or something similar is the perfect reason. Many times you don't have time to go opening compartments to get to a preserver.

I'd hate to have to live with that guilt. "Oh yeah, I had a preserver for Timmy but it was stowed away when the boat sank."

CZ
Believe me they are accesable all the time.....especially the throwable which is always right beside me.... however there is a differance between easily accesable and within reach.... and having them out.... none of the safety equipment on my boat is stowed in a way that it is not imediately accessable.....

I think the biggest crime I have seen aside from not having the jackets out of the wraper... (I have heard that too) is that you can buy storage bag to have them in... I think you can by them form West marine with like four in the bag.....These bags are zippered, which adds another step to get them out..... and then there is my concern, if left unchecked how long before those zippers get fouled up (rust etc.).... I try to inspect all my safety equipment as much as possible, but I wonder how many people ever do....
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Old 09-19-2007, 03:05 AM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin
Believe me they are accesable all the time.....especially the throwable which is always right beside me.... however there is a differance between easily accesable and within reach.... and having them out.... none of the safety equipment on my boat is stowed in a way that it is not imediately accessable.....
Here is the State definition:

Saf-C 401.25 "Readily accessible" means within arm's reach.
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Old 09-19-2007, 08:29 AM   #194
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LI,

I didn't picture you to be one of those "bone heads" discussed here.

CZ
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Old 09-19-2007, 08:44 AM   #195
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Default recovery....

Secondcurve...
I might be wrong, but I believe they attach huge airbags to the boat, that somehow instantly inflate underwater, and they actually float the boat to the surface. Someone at Paugus Bay Marina told me that is how some construction equipment was recovered from the bottom a few years back.
Rattlesnake Gal...some photos of this process would be great if you have the time. Maybe????
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Old 09-19-2007, 08:57 AM   #196
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Since we are now discussing PFDs, how many of you have a line attached to your throwable? It's not a requirement, but it sure can come in handy if the first toss is off target or if you need to pull the victim toward the boat after they have a grip on the throwable. Mine's got a line on it, and we have a special throw line at hand as well.

Rattlesnake Guy, a small fender attached to 200 feet of small diameter cord on a spool, that's also attached to the boat, would make the boat really easy to find, no matter where it sank on the lake. Even one of those self-inflating key chains attached to a cheap spool of monofilament fishing line would work.
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Old 09-19-2007, 11:13 AM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Senter Cove Guy
I drove around the site today about 6pm. No activity. However, I heard that the boat is in 103 feet of water and will be raised tomorrow.
Gal and I really want to get some pics of this long awaited event and have thrown ourselves on the task of enjoying another beautiful day on the quite lake. It is 11AM now and still no activity at the site. This would be the day to do it. Perfectly clear, flat as it gets mid day, no wind, no traffic, no wakes.

If things start up we will start a new thread called “Cobalt Recovery Pictures” so we don’t clog this one. We will post as close to real time as we can. Fingers crossed that it happens today.
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Old 09-19-2007, 11:20 AM   #198
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Yeah, my mother in law!
This will go onto my short list of funniest post.
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Old 09-19-2007, 12:03 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa meredith
Secondcurve...
I might be wrong, but I believe they attach huge airbags to the boat, that somehow instantly inflate underwater, and they actually float the boat to the surface. Someone at Paugus Bay Marina told me that is how some construction equipment was recovered from the bottom a few years back.
Rattlesnake Gal...some photos of this process would be great if you have the time. Maybe????
This is my belief as well. I know somewhere I read about bladers being used to move anchors around and place them. As well I have seen nurmous shows about the recovery of ship reck artifacts from the bottom of the ocean and they always seem to use air bladders to bring things up at least partially. I would think the same technique on a larger scale would bring the boat to the surface under good control. the risk associated with trying to use just a crane at such depths I would think would be great, especially from a stability stand point.
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Old 09-19-2007, 12:59 PM   #200
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Pretty sure the guys from Dive Winni stated they fish trucks that go through the ice out with airbags too. I know theres companies that sell airbags for snowmobiles (mounted under the cowling) that instantly inflate when/if they go through ice, I wonder if a similar device is available for boats?
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