Possible Red Hill Wx Station/Cam

CanisLupusArctos · 04-13-2009, 10:59 PM

I've been talking with the fire warden who mans the Red Hill Fire Tower (elev. about 2,000 feet) about putting a weather station up there, whose conditions would be sent to the internet (just like my Black Cat Island Weather Station.) There are some unique issues with the location so I am appealing to the Winnepesaukee.com community to see who would want to help make it happen. Here are the issues:

1) LIGHTNING. The warden has had weather stations at the summit before but has lost them to lightning. The Fire Dept. bought one, he bought one, the US Govt bought a fancy $50K station... all of them fried by lightning. He says he has NOT tried a wireless station yet, where the sensors operate on batteries charged by mini solar panels and transmit their readings to the center console. This may be a good solution. Could also mount wind sensors below the cab of the tower rather than above it. Official readings are taken about 33 ft. off the ground, and I believe the tower is higher than that (therefore wind readings don't need to be taken at the highest point where the sensors would get hit.)

2) Off-season power and "babysitting" for the system. In the non-wildfire season, the tower is not manned. Snow and rime ice build up on the solar panels that provide electricity to the tower. That causes the power to go out. The power enables the internet which is already in place.

3) Lightning protection for the weather computer. The internet is wireless - same as the M/S Mount Washington's internet that enables the MOUNTcam, but the computer would still need to be plugged in for AC power. The power outlet is subject to surges caused by lightning. The warden says he often unplugs his radios and other electronics when lightning is near, but he isn't up there all the time.

4) Purchase cost for weather station, computer to feed the data to the internet. You can get a decent used one for $150 from WinCycle in VT, which refurbishes and sells machines turned over by Dartmouth Hitchcock Hospital. The hospital likes to use computers that are brand new, so they're always turning over computers that are still "pretty new" to the average person. The wireless Davis Weather Station is around $500 from Ambient Weather. And a cam - anyone interested in having a cam with this station?

All this is stuff that has been either tried or considered before, and the warden tells me he'd love to have it again. But, the technical issues -- especially lightning -- need to be solved. Someone else needs to buy the equipment because those who've bought it before are done throwing cash at lightning.

What can come from this? For one thing, if we the weather geeks can find out what the conditions are 1500 feet above our heads, we can better predict the local weather here at the lake. Second, Red Hill does offer conditions that are more typically found only above treeline in the White Mountains, such as rime ice and winds over 100 mph. It doesn't happen as often, or to the same magnitude, but we do have our own "mini White Mountain" right here at Lake Winnipesaukee and there is no weather station on it. The warden tells me that when he had a weather station up there, he would often get wind gusts to hurricane force in thunderstorms. The highest wind gust he ever measured up there was 109 mph.

jst_4_kiks · 04-14-2009, 12:22 AM

I think it would be awesome to have a system like that on the fire tower. Web cam=FTW. If there are any other interested parties (winni members) or public, there should be a donation account to help fund the purchase of the system.

discuss???

wifi · 04-14-2009, 03:42 AM

Having run a solar powered radio site on top of the Ossipees for the last 25 years (its still in operation), I'd say a close second to lightning, as a problem to solve, is power. The LRCT won't allow power lines, so the only option is solar, or like I have on the Ossipees, a wind turbine in addition to solar. Perhaps everything can be put in the cottage on the ground, and let the cab be the 'lightning rod', so to speak. Just a thought, you'll have to ask Ed how often the cottage has been hit.

Back to solar; you will need to total up the power draw on all the equipment you are proposing, including an inverter, if you are going to run something AC. IMHO, the power equipment currently inplace MIGHT work late Spring until early Fall, but not even close the other 5 months. During winter months, you need to figure in battery storage for atleast a week of no sun, due to ice or snow on the panels. Winter times, its not practical to expect to get up during the worse storms/icing to clean the panels off, when the trails are impassable, which is when the panels will be in most need of cleaning off. Catch 22.

You might consider getting a used laptop that would not require an inverter. Perhaps only powering up the system, say, every hour only to take readings? That would save a LOT of power. Come to think of it, I've never tried running a hard drive at -20F, so one might think about an all solid state system. Don't mean to bore everyone, but, in short, summer months vs winter months are two totally different ball games. Please PM me, I'd like to help out if you think its possible, I'm slowly getting stronger after last Falls operation and I still owe you (CLA) something

While I have the weather geeks on the line, I've noticed the last (approx) 5 years, lightning has been getting worse and worse. Just looking at my repair logs on the Ossipees, the worst seems to center around the middle of June. Is this a trend, a cycle or just mere coincience?

Rose · 04-14-2009, 06:57 AM

Just to warn you, we have a Davis wireless at home and the wind vane was fried by a lightning strike to a power pole (blew the top 5' off the pole) about 100' from the weather station. The vane moved, but the station always showed wind from the north. All the other components of the station were fine. So the wireless aspect of it doesn't make it impervious. Perhaps the people at Davis would have some ideas with regards to protection.

CanisLupusArctos · 04-14-2009, 11:54 PM

Rose, that's exactly what I had in mind. Previous problem has been with cabled station getting hit in the wind sensor and then the lightning surge traveling through the cable to take out the rest of the station as well.

I think if wind sensors can be mounted on the INside of the tower's frame underneath the cab rather than above it/sticking out, and if they were wireless, then lightning would not likely affect them. It would be more likely to flow down the outside of the tower frame or down one of the guy wires.

Black Cat Wx Station's computer operates on an average of 15 watts when the monitor is off. It's a desktop, which is somewhere between a tower and a laptop when it comes to power consumption.

I almost think this would also be a problem that engineering & meteorology students from UNH or PSU might be interested in tackling or helping us with.

Wifi, operating a system at -20 is entirely possible. When researching for how to set up the WeatherCam I looked at a 'how-to' from the John Dee web site (www.johndee.com) in which he talked about how he set up a snowmobile trailcam in Michigan. He was using a camera that wasn't standalone so it needed a PC as a partner. The PC was in a shack he built, and it kept the shack warm enough to keep the camera running in temps that were below its operating range.

There is a weather site operating from Wentworth NH and its owner claims it is entirely solar powered.

What about having solar panels charge a good-size battery, like a bulldozer battery, that could provide extra power?

Answer to question about lightning: Some of the old folks I've talked to lately have said they've noticed a rise in the frequency of severe thunderstorms in the last 5 years. In my most recent stay at the Mt. Washington Observatory (in February) I met a glacier scientist who said things have been trending colder on the mountain in the last 10 years, with this January being a new milestone in the down-trend. Now consider that thunderstorms are most often the result of cold air ramming warm air out of the way, and it all seems to make sense: Winters like we've had the past few years, followed by summers in which the cold fronts don't stop coming. They just find summertime air in the way. Battle ensues. This would be most interesting in June, when the first of the season's truly summerlike air is trying to move in, and at the same time the cold air masses coming out of Canada are still chilled from the wintertime.

Nationwide we are seeing the same scenario set up for this summer. Lots of winter weather still happening out west, and as the cold air moves east (ramming into 'spring' that is surging out of the Gulf of Mexico) we are seeing severe weather outbreaks in the 'contrast zone'. That zone will shift farther and farther to the north as summer approaches.

That's another reason it would be great to be able to track what's happening atop our local mountains such as Red Hill. I suppose we could start by figuring out the best weather station solution to the lightning problem and then provide Ed with that solution for the fire season (when he is up there)... and figure out a winter solution in the meantime.

Afterthought: A good Linux programmer could solve the wintertime issue. Stardot Netcam has a serial port on it. I think the newer ones have USB ports. Davis weather stations can output to either one. I originally looked into hooking up a Davis station to Netcam in such a way that the data could be displayed in the image overlay. I learned that it IS possible. The only reason I decided not to do it that way is because I don't know enough about programming. Netcam is a very small Linux PC that runs on a very small amount of electricity. It can operate in temps of -40F.

04-13-2009, 10:59 PM	#1
CanisLupusArctos Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Center Harbor Posts: 1,049 Thanks: 15 Thanked 472 Times in 107 Posts	Possible Red Hill Wx Station/Cam I've been talking with the fire warden who mans the Red Hill Fire Tower (elev. about 2,000 feet) about putting a weather station up there, whose conditions would be sent to the internet (just like my Black Cat Island Weather Station.) There are some unique issues with the location so I am appealing to the Winnepesaukee.com community to see who would want to help make it happen. Here are the issues: 1) LIGHTNING. The warden has had weather stations at the summit before but has lost them to lightning. The Fire Dept. bought one, he bought one, the US Govt bought a fancy $50K station... all of them fried by lightning. He says he has NOT tried a wireless station yet, where the sensors operate on batteries charged by mini solar panels and transmit their readings to the center console. This may be a good solution. Could also mount wind sensors below the cab of the tower rather than above it. Official readings are taken about 33 ft. off the ground, and I believe the tower is higher than that (therefore wind readings don't need to be taken at the highest point where the sensors would get hit.) 2) Off-season power and "babysitting" for the system. In the non-wildfire season, the tower is not manned. Snow and rime ice build up on the solar panels that provide electricity to the tower. That causes the power to go out. The power enables the internet which is already in place. 3) Lightning protection for the weather computer. The internet is wireless - same as the M/S Mount Washington's internet that enables the MOUNTcam, but the computer would still need to be plugged in for AC power. The power outlet is subject to surges caused by lightning. The warden says he often unplugs his radios and other electronics when lightning is near, but he isn't up there all the time. 4) Purchase cost for weather station, computer to feed the data to the internet. You can get a decent used one for $150 from WinCycle in VT, which refurbishes and sells machines turned over by Dartmouth Hitchcock Hospital. The hospital likes to use computers that are brand new, so they're always turning over computers that are still "pretty new" to the average person. The wireless Davis Weather Station is around $500 from Ambient Weather. And a cam - anyone interested in having a cam with this station? All this is stuff that has been either tried or considered before, and the warden tells me he'd love to have it again. But, the technical issues -- especially lightning -- need to be solved. Someone else needs to buy the equipment because those who've bought it before are done throwing cash at lightning. What can come from this? For one thing, if we the weather geeks can find out what the conditions are 1500 feet above our heads, we can better predict the local weather here at the lake. Second, Red Hill does offer conditions that are more typically found only above treeline in the White Mountains, such as rime ice and winds over 100 mph. It doesn't happen as often, or to the same magnitude, but we do have our own "mini White Mountain" right here at Lake Winnipesaukee and there is no weather station on it. The warden tells me that when he had a weather station up there, he would often get wind gusts to hurricane force in thunderstorms. The highest wind gust he ever measured up there was 109 mph.

04-14-2009, 12:22 AM	#2
jst_4_kiks Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 127 Thanks: 22 Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts	I think it would be awesome to have a system like that on the fire tower. Web cam=FTW. If there are any other interested parties (winni members) or public, there should be a donation account to help fund the purchase of the system. discuss??? __________________ Marine Technician - Learning Something New Every Day PM with any questions about marine repair

04-14-2009, 03:42 AM	#3
wifi Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Lakes Region Posts: 1,321 Thanks: 282 Thanked 287 Times in 169 Posts	Great idea Having run a solar powered radio site on top of the Ossipees for the last 25 years (its still in operation), I'd say a close second to lightning, as a problem to solve, is power. The LRCT won't allow power lines, so the only option is solar, or like I have on the Ossipees, a wind turbine in addition to solar. Perhaps everything can be put in the cottage on the ground, and let the cab be the 'lightning rod', so to speak. Just a thought, you'll have to ask Ed how often the cottage has been hit. Back to solar; you will need to total up the power draw on all the equipment you are proposing, including an inverter, if you are going to run something AC. IMHO, the power equipment currently inplace MIGHT work late Spring until early Fall, but not even close the other 5 months. During winter months, you need to figure in battery storage for atleast a week of no sun, due to ice or snow on the panels. Winter times, its not practical to expect to get up during the worse storms/icing to clean the panels off, when the trails are impassable, which is when the panels will be in most need of cleaning off. Catch 22. You might consider getting a used laptop that would not require an inverter. Perhaps only powering up the system, say, every hour only to take readings? That would save a LOT of power. Come to think of it, I've never tried running a hard drive at -20F, so one might think about an all solid state system. Don't mean to bore everyone, but, in short, summer months vs winter months are two totally different ball games. Please PM me, I'd like to help out if you think its possible, I'm slowly getting stronger after last Falls operation and I still owe you (CLA) something While I have the weather geeks on the line, I've noticed the last (approx) 5 years, lightning has been getting worse and worse. Just looking at my repair logs on the Ossipees, the worst seems to center around the middle of June. Is this a trend, a cycle or just mere coincience? Last edited by wifi; 04-14-2009 at 04:24 AM. Reason: fixing grammar

04-14-2009, 06:57 AM	#4
Rose Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 498 Thanks: 62 Thanked 71 Times in 32 Posts	Party pooper Just to warn you, we have a Davis wireless at home and the wind vane was fried by a lightning strike to a power pole (blew the top 5' off the pole) about 100' from the weather station. The vane moved, but the station always showed wind from the north. All the other components of the station were fine. So the wireless aspect of it doesn't make it impervious. Perhaps the people at Davis would have some ideas with regards to protection.

04-14-2009, 11:54 PM	#5
CanisLupusArctos Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Center Harbor Posts: 1,049 Thanks: 15 Thanked 472 Times in 107 Posts	Rose, that's exactly what I had in mind. Previous problem has been with cabled station getting hit in the wind sensor and then the lightning surge traveling through the cable to take out the rest of the station as well. I think if wind sensors can be mounted on the INside of the tower's frame underneath the cab rather than above it/sticking out, and if they were wireless, then lightning would not likely affect them. It would be more likely to flow down the outside of the tower frame or down one of the guy wires. Black Cat Wx Station's computer operates on an average of 15 watts when the monitor is off. It's a desktop, which is somewhere between a tower and a laptop when it comes to power consumption. I almost think this would also be a problem that engineering & meteorology students from UNH or PSU might be interested in tackling or helping us with. Wifi, operating a system at -20 is entirely possible. When researching for how to set up the WeatherCam I looked at a 'how-to' from the John Dee web site (www.johndee.com) in which he talked about how he set up a snowmobile trailcam in Michigan. He was using a camera that wasn't standalone so it needed a PC as a partner. The PC was in a shack he built, and it kept the shack warm enough to keep the camera running in temps that were below its operating range. There is a weather site operating from Wentworth NH and its owner claims it is entirely solar powered. What about having solar panels charge a good-size battery, like a bulldozer battery, that could provide extra power? Answer to question about lightning: Some of the old folks I've talked to lately have said they've noticed a rise in the frequency of severe thunderstorms in the last 5 years. In my most recent stay at the Mt. Washington Observatory (in February) I met a glacier scientist who said things have been trending colder on the mountain in the last 10 years, with this January being a new milestone in the down-trend. Now consider that thunderstorms are most often the result of cold air ramming warm air out of the way, and it all seems to make sense: Winters like we've had the past few years, followed by summers in which the cold fronts don't stop coming. They just find summertime air in the way. Battle ensues. This would be most interesting in June, when the first of the season's truly summerlike air is trying to move in, and at the same time the cold air masses coming out of Canada are still chilled from the wintertime. Nationwide we are seeing the same scenario set up for this summer. Lots of winter weather still happening out west, and as the cold air moves east (ramming into 'spring' that is surging out of the Gulf of Mexico) we are seeing severe weather outbreaks in the 'contrast zone'. That zone will shift farther and farther to the north as summer approaches. That's another reason it would be great to be able to track what's happening atop our local mountains such as Red Hill. I suppose we could start by figuring out the best weather station solution to the lightning problem and then provide Ed with that solution for the fire season (when he is up there)... and figure out a winter solution in the meantime. Afterthought: A good Linux programmer could solve the wintertime issue. Stardot Netcam has a serial port on it. I think the newer ones have USB ports. Davis weather stations can output to either one. I originally looked into hooking up a Davis station to Netcam in such a way that the data could be displayed in the image overlay. I learned that it IS possible. The only reason I decided not to do it that way is because I don't know enough about programming. Netcam is a very small Linux PC that runs on a very small amount of electricity. It can operate in temps of -40F.