Wrong Color Marker?

[hazelnut]

I have been wracking my brain on this one. Anyone familiar with the area or perhaps Bizer himself could chime in with a map shot of the area.

Here goes:

Right off the Idlewild beach/docks on Cow Island there is a RED SPAR marking a rock that sits to the SOUTH of the marker. I truly believe this marker to be the wrong color. Bizer map correctly tells you in order to miss the hazard (large rock about 4 feet down)to pass to the NORTH of this RED SPAR. This seems to go directly against normal logic. I investigated the area thoroughly the other day and I could find absolutely nothing to support why this marker is RED. If you look at your chart look for FL 41 and look south towards COW, between COW and Ragged Island. Some Charts show this RED to be further east than it actually is. I can tell you that as it sits the marker is properly placed, marking a legit hazard, it's just the wrong color.

[Little Bear]

It's an inherent problem with the marking system. A marker can realistically only mark one particular course. Another prime example of this is the black marker at Pt. Sarah, between Little Bear and Long Island (by East Cove). It accompanies Flashing Light 10.

Boat traffic often travels along the west side of Little Bear on a South-North course. According to the marker system in place, one would tend to want to pass to the east of this particular black marker (and a ton of people do), but it puts you right into the shallows. However, this black marker is only valid when traveling on an East-West course, so then the correct passage is to the North. I think the red marker by Idlewild is there to mark an East-West course, so passage would be to the South (between the marker and the docks. I was told once it was put there for the mail boat. Who knows?

[SIKSUKR]

I guess I'm missing the problem with the Cow/Ragged markers.On my Bizer 6th edition it shows a total of 5 red markers in that area.The prefered course stays west or south of all those markers.I've been in that area a few times going to Mama Lucys on Cow and I sure do check the chart before entering though.

[Newbiesaukee]

Also, Little Bear, there are two red markers by Long Island west of Little Bear Island, which only make sense, again, if you are assuming they go east to west which would keep you south and safe. Logically, however, they really look as if they are south to north and therefore if you follow this you will go west of them right into the rocks. IMO, they would more accurately be black. That said, there is unfortunately some inherent ambiguity in the system. I guess this does add to the excitement of navigating Winnipesaukee

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Little Bear

It's an inherent problem with the marking system. A marker can realistically only mark one particular course. Another prime example of this is the black marker at Pt. Sarah, between Little Bear and Long Island (by East Cove). It accompanies Flashing Light 10.

Boat traffic often travels along the west side of Little Bear on a South-North course. According to the marker system in place, one would tend to want to pass to the east of this particular black marker (and a ton of people do), but it puts you right into the shallows. However, this black marker is only valid when traveling on an East-West course, so then the correct passage is to the North. I think the red marker by Idlewild is there to mark an East-West course, so passage would be to the South (between the marker and the docks. I was told once it was put there for the mail boat. Who knows?

That's what I'm talking about Little Bear.... You better not pass to the South of that red or you'll be leaving your outdrive behind .

The only logical course in the area is an East/West course because a North/South course puts you on a collision course with either Cow Island or A huge pile of Rocks. SO, with that said this Red is there to mark a hazard for boaters traveling on an East/West course. The hazard is to the south (Large Rock located a few feet below the surface). Therefore, you must pass to the NORTH of this RED to avoid the hazard. The color of this marker is wrong.

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

That's what I'm talking about Little Bear.... You better not pass to the South of that red or you'll be leaving your outdrive behind .

The only logical course in the area is an East/West course because a North/South course puts you on a collision course with either Cow Island or A huge pile of Rocks. SO, with that said this Red is there to mark a hazard for boaters traveling on an East/West course. The hazard is to the south (Large Rock located a few feet below the surface). Therefore, you must pass to the NORTH of this RED to avoid the hazard. The color of this marker is wrong.

H-Nut: I guess I was mistaken. Are you saying that there is a rock between the red marker and Idlewild docks? Never noticed that, but will check it out. I know for sure to the north of the marker is a minefield of rocks, but I know people who actually know the safe path and bomb thru there at full speed. Not me!

[SIKSUKR]

There is a rock shown on Bizers chart between Idlewid and the red marker.If you're traveling from the south you need that to be a red marker to stay left/west of that rock.Definately confusing when coming from the north side of Ragged towards Idlewild and into that cove where Mama Lucy's is.We sure do need charts on this lake don't we?

[kchace]

HN has hit on the very point that took me the longest to come to grips with regarding the marking system used on the lake. Black-topped buoy pass to the E or N side of. Red-topped buoy pass to the W or S side of.

It does not say you can *always* pass on BOTH of those sides, just one or the other and MAYBE both. Only by looking at the chart can one tell for sure.

A great example of this is the line of three black-topped buoys to the north of Eagle Island. You can pass on the east side of all of them, but you'd better NOT pass to the north side of the first two - only the northern most one can be safely passed to the north.

Ken

[jasn]

Can anyone fill me in as to how long markers last out there? How often do they get replaced and/or repositioned? Some of those soldiers out there are lookin' pretty tired...

Given the bright neon colors available today I'd sure like to see the red ones brighter and easier to identify when you're coming up on one and heading into the sun. Make the black ones neon green too (or maybe neon green with a black top).

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Little Bear

H-Nut: I guess I was mistaken. Are you saying that there is a rock between the red marker and Idlewild docks? Never noticed that, but will check it out. I know for sure to the north of the marker is a minefield of rocks, but I know people who actually know the safe path and bomb thru there at full speed. Not me!

Little Bear,

I went over there in my little 13 Whaler the other day and you'd be surprised. The "minefield of rocks" is what you see above water. You can essentially pass as close as you'd like to those rocks. The real hazard is between the Red and the Idlewild docks. The area to the North of the red spar is free and clear and plenty deep right up to about 20-25 feet off the rocks sticking up out of the water. I spent considerable time in the area investigating. I can also tell you that the FL 41 with the black top spar sits right next to the a huge pile of rocks.

Anyway I know it might look scary but with regard to the red top spar off the Idlewild docks you are better off zipping along closer to the rocks on the north side of the red. If you go to the south of the red you would be lucky to keep your prop on your drive.

I had been curious about this area for years and decided to scope it out in detail the other day. I left with more questions than answers. The only thing I resolved was what course was safest. Other that that I worry that other boaters may not be so lucky. It's not a real heavily traveled area but it could still trip up a fw boaters none the less.

[jrc]

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=...cl=1&encType=1

looks rocky

[tis]

We were just talking about markers the other day. Our feeling is you cannot rely on them. The ice moves them and many times they never get moved back. One was missing at the entrance to Winter Harbor just last weekend. I don't know if it is back yet or not. They seem to be a guide and you hope and pray.

[Orion]

HN, That marker is red because you are to pass west of it on a north/south course. Remember, the charts are all tilted to fit the paper. The chart also uses the word "generally" when describing what side of a bouy to stay on. This is exactly why I always use the travel lines on the chart to confirm what side to be on. Better safe than sorry and sunk.

[hazelnut]

Very true Orion good advice.

I still think that the marker is wrong though. I was using a compass when I was over there and the position of the marker would tell you, if using Red South/West logic, to pass directly over the hazard. The chart shows it quite a bit further over than it actually is. The marker itself is in a good location, as it marks a rock, it is just the wrong color in my opinion.

The end result of course is as always:

Local Knowledge Required

[skprbob]

Hazelnut et al,

Perhaps I can shed some light here - I was a camper/counsellor at Camp Idlewild for 14 summers, still work out there occasionally, and occasionally skipper the Sophie C through there.

As long as I can remember, that marker in question has been a red-top and does mark a very large rock which we Idlewilders used to call "mailboat rock". It may help to think of the markers in this way - a red-top marker indicates danger to the north or east and a black-top marker indicates danger to the south or west - rather than in terms of a course to follow. In the case of this marker, there is danger to its east. The black-top marker at light #41 marks danger to both its south and its west, namely the big rock pile.

If you approach the ared from the Broads side, note that the Cow Island shoreline runs essentially due north. As you pass the Idlewild dock and approch the red-top, it should be quite clear that you keep that marker on your right, thus passing it to the west and avoiding the danger to the east. You can the continue to light #41 and keep that black-top on your left as you turn toward Little Bear Island. Coming from Little Bear, it's obviously opposite.

Hope this helps.

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by skprbob

Hazelnut et al,

Perhaps I can shed some light here - I was a camper/counsellor at Camp Idlewild for 14 summers, still work out there occasionally, and occasionally skipper the Sophie C through there.

As long as I can remember, that marker in question has been a red-top and does mark a very large rock which we Idlewilders used to call "mailboat rock". It may help to think of the markers in this way - a red-top marker indicates danger to the north or east and a black-top marker indicates danger to the south or west - rather than in terms of a course to follow. In the case of this marker, there is danger to its east. The black-top marker at light #41 marks danger to both its south and its west, namely the big rock pile.

If you approach the ared from the Broads side, note that the Cow Island shoreline runs essentially due north. As you pass the Idlewild dock and approch the red-top, it should be quite clear that you keep that marker on your right, thus passing it to the west and avoiding the danger to the east. You can the continue to light #41 and keep that black-top on your left as you turn toward Little Bear Island. Coming from Little Bear, it's obviously opposite.

Hope this helps.

You must have a lot of fun passing to the right of FL1 and its companion blacktop spar (keeping it on your left) when leaving the Weirs and heading toward Eagle Island.

[SIKSUKR]

Agree with skprbob.As I said before that red marker has you navigating west of it when heading north.Exactly what you need to do.

[Rinkerfam]

The black-top on the South side of Treasure Isl. is another one that has me scratching my head.

[Bizer]

For red markers, one should stay south or west. For black markers, one should stay north or east. The dilemma comes when one should stay northwest or southeast.

The OP has indicated a marker that is northwest of a rock. If the buoy is northwest of the hazard, should the marker be red (so that you stay to the west) or black (so that you stay to the north)? For this buoy and several others, it’s a judgment call as to what color the buoy should be.

Originally Posted by Rinkerfam

The black-top on the South side of Treasure Isl. is another one that has me scratching my head.

Some other examples of buoys that could be either red or black: FL10 (northwest of Little Bear); southeast of Fish Island, southeast of Treasure Island, northwest of Hull Island.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Agree with skprbob.As I said before that red marker has you navigating west of it when heading north.Exactly what you need to do.

Again I will agree to disagree. Instead of looking at the chart drive on over and inspect it for yourself. As for what skprbob said great info but not entirely accurate. As I said before I went over and inspected the area for about an hour. The hazard is sitting directly to the SOUTH and WEST of the RED marker. If any of you do not believe me please go and check it out for yourselves.

I have been boating on the lake for over 26 years and I put over 100 hours per summer on my boat being an islander who lives here all summer. I have worked on the Doris E. as a deckhand and was trained to pilot the vessel, for obvious reasons being that there was only the captain and myself aboard and any one time.

I only say all this so that you understand that I am no newbie here. I really feel that this marker is incorrect and misleading to a less than experienced boater. I even recall a chart I had in my possession a few years ago that directed you to the wrong side of the buoy. I wish I still had it.

As I stated before though, local knowledge required, as usual. I'm just pointing out a major flaw in the system.

[SIKSUKR]

Sorry HN,I guess I'm misunderstanding you.I explored that whole area late last year on my pwc and don't remember it being different from Bizers chart.I'll definately check that marker out this marker this weekend.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Rinkerfam

The black-top on the South side of Treasure Isl. is another one that has me scratching my head.

Regarding red-top markers, I have an old map that shows Treasure Island marked as Red Top Island. Could there be some connection with markers? Was it more-appropriately named at some time?

There's no mention of that name anywhere else that I can find.

Edit to add:

Just looked at the old map again, and it's Red Head Island.

[hazelnut]

I guess I must be going crazy in my old age... ha ha ha all 37 years of it.... Anyway I just scratch my head with this one and I can not come to terms with it. I guess I'll have to accept it as one of those "winni buoy" things.

No matter what happens I can only imagine that it could be explained 100 different ways as to why it is the way it is... I just firmly think that it should be a black spar instead of a red. Oh well I should just move on and stop obsessing.

SIKSUKR,

I await your assessment after you complete your thorough investigation of the area. If you come up with a completely opposite viewpoint I will accept it as one of those "winni" nav things. Let me know what you find.

[skprbob]

GWC,

If you consult your chart and/or compass, you'll see that a course from Weirs docks to Eagle Island is easterly, thus one passes on the north side of FL1's black-top. Keep that marker to your right!


Also, regarding Cow Island, it is entirely possible that the red-top is out of position. Most of the new plastic markers are anchored by a cinder block, so they do move more easily than the old wooden spars.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by tis

We were just talking about markers the other day. Our feeling is you cannot rely on them. The ice moves them and many times they never get moved back. One was missing at the entrance to Winter Harbor just last weekend. I don't know if it is back yet or not. They seem to be a guide and you hope and pray.

There are only two markers to the entrance to Winter Harbor—I know because I use markers as "cover" when venturing out by sailboat. (Staying between a marker and shore).

Both have been whacked this year—one has been whacked twice this month. Neither has been missing and as of yesterday, neither has been replaced—this year.

Tis, what do you consider "the entrance to Winter Harbor"? Would that be "Tuftonboro Bay" as on The Weirs Times centerfold map?

Edit to add:

"Tuftonborough Bay" is the old name for all of Winter Harbor—never mind.

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by skprbob

GWC,

If you consult your chart and/or compass, you'll see that a course from Weirs docks to Eagle Island is easterly, thus one passes on the north side of FL1's black-top. Keep that marker to your right!

You are correct for FL 1 and your dissertation about FL 41 makes sense, until one consults a map.

Originally Posted by skprbob

a red-top marker indicates danger to the north or east and a black-top marker indicates danger to the south or west - rather than in terms of a course to follow. In the case of this marker, there is danger to its east. The black-top marker at light #41 marks danger to both its south and its west, namely the big rock pile.

If you approach the area from the Broads side, note that the Cow Island shoreline runs essentially due north. As you pass the Idlewild dock and approach the red-top, it should be quite clear that you keep that marker on your right, thus passing it to the west and avoiding the danger to the east. You can the continue to light #41 and keep that black-top on your left as you turn toward Little Bear Island.

Consulting a map, one realizes that the course is almost identical as the one you describe for FL 41 as for FL 1 when leaving the Weirs docks and heading toward Eagle Island, more so if one is leaving the Weirs channel.

The point being, the current system has its flaws and MP provides an answer similar to yours when queried and FL 1 is used as an example.

Thusly, it is very easy to understand the confusion and dismay with the color of some buoys and the location of the hazard they warn, as described by hazelnut.

[skprbob]

Originally Posted by GWC...

You are correct for FL 1 and your dissertation about FL 41 makes sense, until one consults a map.


Consulting a map, one realizes that the course is almost identical as the one you describe for FL 41 as for FL 1 when leaving the Weirs docks and heading toward Eagle Island, more so if one is leaving the Weirs channel.

The point being, the current system has its flaws and MP provides an answer similar to yours when queried and FL 1 is used as an example.

Thusly, it is very easy to understand the confusion and dismay with the color of some buoys and the location of the hazard they warn, as described by hazelnut.

I'll try once more to be clear about FL41 - when you make the approach along the Cow Isl shore from the broads, you're travelling north. Pass the much-discussed red-top to the west, keeping it to your right, and continue on toward FL41. One is still travelling northward and one passes the black-top and light to the east, keeping them on your left. As you turn left toward Little Bear Isl, you still have the black-top/light on your left, and you are now north of them and still safe! No confusion here. The rocks are southwest of the black-top/light, exactly where they're supposed to be.

[JTA]

I agree skprbob. I've been navigating there for years. Now, can you explain the red color of the two markers going in to Lucy's? They should be black in my opinion.

[hazelnut]

FL41 is not the issue. FL41 is the correct color and the correct location. The red top spar off of the beach at Idlewild is the wrong color.

I checked AGAIN with my compass after much discussion on the forum and the marker is placed to the NORTH of a hazard. The only logical direction you would be traveling is East/West course when arriving upon this buoy. Pass to the South and you will lose your prop.

Oh well interpretation is in the eye of the beholder I guess. I just do not see how they arrived at placing a red topped spar in that location.

As Bizer said it is a judgement call.. I disagree with the judge.

[skprbob]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

FL41 is not the issue. FL41 is the correct color and the correct location. The red top spar off of the beach at Idlewild is the wrong color.

I checked AGAIN with my compass after much discussion on the forum and the marker is placed to the NORTH of a hazard. The only logical direction you would be traveling is East/West course when arriving upon this buoy. Pass to the South and you will lose your prop.

Oh well interpretation is in the eye of the beholder I guess. I just do not see how they arrived at placing a red topped spar in that location.

As Bizer said it is a judgement call.. I disagree with the judge.

The FL41 discussion was prompted by GWC - I realize that is not your issue.

I mentioned in a recent post that it is possible that the red-top marker is out of position - that happens more often than one might think.

If you're travelling east/west at this marker, you're travelling either directly toward or away from the Cow Isl shoreline. Most people are travelling roughly parallel to the shore, ie north/south. Pass on the west side of the marker.

I also realize that my explanation is probably futile by now. I suggest you contact Marine Patrol and report the problem color and/or that the marker is out of position. I won't waste the forum's time.

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by skprbob

The FL41 discussion was prompted by GWC - I realize that is not your issue.

Too funny...

Perhaps you forgot this post:

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...5&postcount=15

The designated paths shown on a Bizer map (dotted or broken line) are almost parallel when approaching the area of discussion (FL 41 - Cow Island) from the Broads and when leaving the Weirs channel and approaching FL1.

Interestingly, the proper path passes the buoys in question on opposite sides.

Bottom line: Don't boat on the Lake without a map...

[Bizer]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

As Bizer said it is a judgement call.. I disagree with the judge.

One more thought: The directions are probably established with a magnetic compass. At Winnipesaukee, a magnetic heading differs from a true heading by 16 degrees.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by JTA

I agree skprbob. I've been navigating there for years. Now, can you explain the red color of the two markers going in to Lucy's? They should be black in my opinion.

As far as I'm concerned those markers by Mama's are correct also.You must stay south of them.Hazelnut,I did not have a chance to get there this weekend.I was in the area Saturday but had my mind set on making the crossing across the broads in those 3-4 foot swells on my little PWC.I still believe all those markers are correct but like other areas on the lake they can be confusing when coming from a different heading.When I look on a chart they make sense.