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Old 09-18-2014, 01:27 PM   #101
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Phantom, I totally disagree with this statement, I have been on the lake now for over 25 years. I have never found a spot on the lake where the compass and an understanding of the markers would have failed me.

I have been to several areas where trying to go fast and not heading the markers and verifying your orientation with a compass would fail you for sure.

But that is not the same as your statement.

Boaters need to be educated on how to use a compass, and navigate with regards to the orientation to the marker.....

No chart is really needed... A chart makes it easier..... A chart makes it possible to navigate unfamiliar areas a bit faster.... but a chart will not save you... anymore then a compass and understanding of the AtoN will......

I also disagree with the statement that GPS devices are the save all either. Yep they are nice and look pretty, but I bet many boaters still get into trouble.... yep you maybe able to zoom in etc. but common people, that doesn't make it safer.

REALLY LEARN TO NAVIGATE.... UNDERSTAND THE MARKERS.... AND DON"T BE AFRAID TO SLOW DOWN, and understand your bearings......

Anyways I am going to get off my soap box..... I have noticed that many people in this argument are also the people that think anything less then a 24' boat is unsafe......

What makes a successful captain, is experience, constant learning, and being able to get a firm grasp of how the Aides (markers, compass, GPS, depth finder, etc.) will make your life easier. They don't do the job for you.....

ok now I am serious... I am stepping off the soap box and kicking it aside.
Here's one: Travel along the west side of Little Bear Island, on a south to north heading. At flashing light # 10 (at the passage between Little Bear and Long Island) you will find a white/black marker accompanying the flashing light. The compass heading shows you are heading north at that time, so logic would say pass to the east of the spar and light marker. This is the wrong side.

The markers are marking the passage on a west/east course, so you would correctly pass to the north of the markers. This is confusing and I have seen dozens of boats pass on the wrong side over the years. The proper passage side is directed by the course that the markers are marking. Another one is the red marker over by the Idlewild mail dock on Cow Island. Same thing. It's marking a north/south course, so the correct passage is to the west. Yet if you are approaching on an east/west course, you would incorrectly pass to the south of the marker. It's a flawed, lousy system.
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Old 09-18-2014, 02:51 PM   #102
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Here's one: Travel along the west side of Little Bear Island, on a south to north heading. At flashing light # 10 (at the passage between Little Bear and Long Island) you will find a white/black marker accompanying the flashing light. The compass heading shows you are heading north at that time, so logic would say pass to the east of the spar and light marker. This is the wrong side.

The markers are marking the passage on a west/east course, so you would correctly pass to the north of the markers. This is confusing and I have seen dozens of boats pass on the wrong side over the years. The proper passage side is directed by the course that the markers are marking. Another one is the red marker over by the Idlewild mail dock on Cow Island. Same thing. It's marking a north/south course, so the correct passage is to the west. Yet if you are approaching on an east/west course, you would incorrectly pass to the south of the marker. It's a flawed, lousy system.
Ok lets talk Lighted marker #10 first. I know this well.If your on a Northerly course you are actually headed directly at Long Island You bear to the east to come up and go through the passage, passing the lighted back top spar to the North side of it. You are also passing the second back spar to the North. I don't understand how this is confusing. There is also the red spar before the lighted black which when on a Northerly course you are passing to the west of....

No lets talk to the Cow Island issue, as you come in from the south between ragged and cow, you have a Red top spar of ragged which you have pass on the southern side off, you proceed up the cut and pass to the west of a second red marker, then you go to the north and east of the lighted back 41 and turn back to a northerly route and pass the last red mark to the west . Now if you wish to go into idlewild you of course need go to the south of second red that actually brings you into that cut.

You have to process these scenarios with knowledge of your heading. and process all the markers in that area for it all to make sense. People often think they can turn directly after a mark and that is simply not the case.

I don't mean to sound like a broken record here, but at one time I too found this all very confusing. But then I began to dig into more, so that I had the understanding of how to navigate the lake. I of course have a map at all times, and someday my even get a GPS, as I do more night boating now, something about looking at the stars is pretty cool. The bottom line is you have to process all the information. Having a maps is good, because the dotted lines take the processing of your position out of the equation. But does that really make you safe and comfortable? I know it didn't make me comfortable, it wasn't until I really studied my headings and understood the marker system that I really got comfortable with navigating the lake.

Please don't read into my comments to deep, I am not ridiculing anyone, what I am stating is that there is more to navigating then just looking at a chart with dotted lines to make the process easy, if you really want to understand how well marked the lake really is you have to focus on understanding your heading and how to apply the markers to that heading.

I find this lake incredibly well marked. And if you get disoriented as to where North really is, it is very very easy to end up in trouble. I myself am not perfect, and have ended up on the wrong side of a marker. I beet myself up over it, make sure I know why I was wrong, and why it was marked the way it was. Once I rationize it all, I come to the conclusion, that I had a lapse in judgement, and the Markers are indeed correct.
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Old 09-18-2014, 03:10 PM   #103
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But then I began to dig into more, so that I had the understanding of how to navigate the lake. I of course have a map at all times, and someday my even get a GPS, as I do more night boating now, something about looking at the stars is pretty cool. The bottom line is you have to process all the information. .............I know it didn't make me comfortable, it wasn't until I really studied my headings and understood the marker system that I really got comfortable with navigating the lake.
Totally agree with the point you are making ... and I too, a 25+ year veteran try to go to the "basics" or "mechanics" of navigating along with a good deal of chart study to know if it is simply a shallow area or hazard. I insist that my grandkids (now beginning to drive) learn the compass and spars and NOT look at the GPS.

But we all do not have this "experience" and by definition most are "recreational" boaters -- it just fact!

In my previous post there is NO WAY to logically explain why you would "split the Black Tops" at FL#30 until you reviewed a chart and understood that the northern black top (on a Westerly course) is paired with a Red Top and thus "not in Play ! These are the situations where just a Compass does not work -- it's in combination with a chart.

On another note -- I would highly recommend getting a GPS for your night riding.... I succumbed years ago and am extremely glad I did -- it takes a piece of the stress out of the ride and is also extremely helpful in determining the relative position of a spar when the sun is in your eyes or the light is "flat". They are quite accurate ! But a piece of electronics that could fail none the less ... thus basics mandatory.

Problem with me is that after all these years of boating, I have most of the Spars -- in the vast areas where we boat -- committed to memory so that when the Grandkids are driving I am already anticipating an upcoming spar and know it's color and use that to calmly "test" the kids judgment. Drives my wife Nutz that I remember all of them



.
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Old 09-19-2014, 08:53 AM   #104
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Ok lets talk Lighted marker #10 first. I know this well.If your on a Northerly course you are actually headed directly at Long Island You bear to the east to come up and go through the passage, passing the lighted back top spar to the North side of it. You are also passing the second back spar to the North. I don't understand how this is confusing. There is also the red spar before the lighted black which when on a Northerly course you are passing to the west of....

No lets talk to the Cow Island issue, as you come in from the south between ragged and cow, you have a Red top spar of ragged which you have pass on the southern side off, you proceed up the cut and pass to the west of a second red marker, then you go to the north and east of the lighted back 41 and turn back to a northerly route and pass the last red mark to the west . Now if you wish to go into idlewild you of course need go to the south of second red that actually brings you into that cut.

You have to process these scenarios with knowledge of your heading. and process all the markers in that area for it all to make sense. People often think they can turn directly after a mark and that is simply not the case.

I don't mean to sound like a broken record here, but at one time I too found this all very confusing. But then I began to dig into more, so that I had the understanding of how to navigate the lake. I of course have a map at all times, and someday my even get a GPS, as I do more night boating now, something about looking at the stars is pretty cool. The bottom line is you have to process all the information. Having a maps is good, because the dotted lines take the processing of your position out of the equation. But does that really make you safe and comfortable? I know it didn't make me comfortable, it wasn't until I really studied my headings and understood the marker system that I really got comfortable with navigating the lake.

Please don't read into my comments to deep, I am not ridiculing anyone, what I am stating is that there is more to navigating then just looking at a chart with dotted lines to make the process easy, if you really want to understand how well marked the lake really is you have to focus on understanding your heading and how to apply the markers to that heading.

I find this lake incredibly well marked. And if you get disoriented as to where North really is, it is very very easy to end up in trouble. I myself am not perfect, and have ended up on the wrong side of a marker. I beet myself up over it, make sure I know why I was wrong, and why it was marked the way it was. Once I rationize it all, I come to the conclusion, that I had a lapse in judgement, and the Markers are indeed correct.
I agree with your points. You are an experienced boater and know the areas in question. Take a look at your description of the red marker by the Idlewild mail dock. You are correct about the first red marker - you are on a west to east course so you pass to the south of the first marker by Ragged Island. However, you are still on that same west to east course when approaching the second red marker by the mail dock. If you passed to the south again (as you did with the first red marker) you would be on the wrong side. That's my point. Unless a boater knows the area, or is using a chart with dotted lines to show correct passage, then the markers are confusing and basically useless. Makes no difference to me. I can't tell you the last time I pulled out a chart since I know most of the lake by heart. I just feel bad for boaters that don't have the same experience.
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Old 09-19-2014, 09:04 AM   #105
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T
In my previous post there is NO WAY to logically explain why you would "split the Black Tops" at FL#30 until you reviewed a chart and understood that the northern black top (on a Westerly course) is paired with a Red Top and thus "not in Play ! These are the situations where just a Compass does not work -- it's in combination with a chart.
Now 1st lets be clear here I am not picking on Phantom, he however has simply brought to light another tricky navigation area, I I figure that these explanations I have started may help people understand better.. So lets look at the lighted #30 area...

I will approach this from a west to east travel heading from Mark towards Jolly... First in play are the two red marks off the tip of bear on an easterly track you are passing south of the markers. Then comes lighted Black #30, to which on an easterly course you are passing to the north. At this point the second back hasn't yest come into play. if you chose to maintain your easterly course, and pass to the south of Jolly island, it never comes into play. However after passing lighted marker #30 should you chose to change your heading to a more northerly route, to go up the west side of Jolly you now have to factor the unlighted black marker into your equation, and pass it to the east.

The distinction that needs to be made about the black / Red pair that Phantom refers to is that they are not solid channel markers They are Red tip and black tip spars, and you don't go between them. This is a major point, that many people don't always grasp.

The Markers make sense, there are some tricky area to be sure. You just have to study them out. If there are any other tricky areas please bring the up, I am enjoying this, and want everyone to understand the marking system and how your heading plays into it. Even with the couple I have do here already I have learned a few things. And remember what I said, I don't claim to be perfect. I have made some mistakes along the way... But communication is good, and helps us all learn and get more comfortable.

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Drives my wife Nutz that I remember all of them
Your not the only one that experiences driving the wife nuts because you remember all the markers
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Old 09-19-2014, 02:31 PM   #106
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Default Lake Level

A little off topic, but the water level now seems a couple of feet lower than a month ago, which compounds the rock problem. Is any advance notice available with respect to water levels? Fortunately, I already put my boat in storage this season, but the rock risk was significantly greater this week than before and it would be helpful to know projected water levels when deciding timing for storage. Knowing the rules and using a compass and charts are not that helpful when you need to first navigate from your dock among many rocks in low water.
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Old 09-19-2014, 03:29 PM   #107
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A little off topic, but the water level now seems a couple of feet lower than a month ago, which compounds the rock problem. Is any advance notice available with respect to water levels? Fortunately, I already put my boat in storage this season, but the rock risk was significantly greater this week than before and it would be helpful to know projected water levels when deciding timing for storage. Knowing the rules and using a compass and charts are not that helpful when you need to first navigate from your dock among many rocks in low water.
The lake is 503.39, just shy of a foot below full lake at 504.32. Shorelines can become shallower and rocks stand up tall. Yup, need to be careful.
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Old 09-22-2014, 06:41 PM   #108
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Default Took a ride

On Sunday, I went through the area in question (and took a picture of a cormorant, I think on top of the NWZ marker). The area is beautiful!!

I would never have gone through there without a chart the first time.
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Old 09-23-2014, 07:45 AM   #109
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The lake is 503.39, just shy of a foot below full lake at 504.32. Shorelines can become shallower and rocks stand up tall. Yup, need to be careful.
To put my question a different way, is the lake level just a function of the weather, or is it controlled by the dam at Lakeport based on someone's decision what the lake level should be and/or how much water the rivers below can safely handle?
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Old 09-23-2014, 10:37 AM   #110
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Yes, the lake level is controlled.

You can read about some of it (and see charts) online here:
http://des.nh.gov/organization/divis.../dam/index.htm

Of course, it's be discussed many times here in this forum (try a search).

Here is what they wrote in one of the documents available via the link above:

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Not included in this schedule is Lake Winnipesaukee. Unlike the other lakes in this schedule, Lake Winnipesaukee is not purposely drawn down in the fall. Instead, each year on Columbus Day, the releases from Lakeport Dam are reduced from a normal minimum of 250 cubic feet per second (cfs) to a flow between 30 and 50 cfs for a period of up to two weeks to allow for maintenance of the dams and hydropower facilities on the Winnipesaukee River. The flow of 30 to 50 cfs is the minimum flow needed to maintain the downstream aquatic life during this period.
By the middle of the fall, Lake Winnipesaukee is, on average, 15 inches below its springtime full level due to evaporation and releases from the lake that have occurred over the course of the summer. As a result of the reduction in the amount of water released from the dam after Columbus Day, the lake level does not drop for the remainder of the month of October and is generally maintained at this level through the month of December. Depending on the amount of snow on the ground in the winter, the lake level may be lowered further beginning in January to a depth of two feet below the normal full level.
I always leave a little more slack in my dock lines as soon as Labor day is here as the level always seems to drop in the fall.
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Old 09-28-2014, 09:49 PM   #111
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Default Another one almost hit the rocks ....BUT SAVED TODAY

Ok.... this is the last time commenting on this original "Another one hits the rocks" post. This post has a different slant to it. This time the post will state..... "we saved another one from hitting the rocks" today. After this post we will have done the best we can do for now to help poor and uneducated boat people from having a bad day.... "by not hitting the rocks".

It was amazing how trying to help saving people from the rocks and then how the thread went AWOL to many other different topics. Anyway, it is all good and productive information for all of us.

Ok,... all well and good. But let me tell you what happened today. OK here we go..... I was in my little work boat and saw a boat heading between the black markers. I watched them to see if they would turn and head through markers in the correct way. No... they keep moving between the black markers and heading for the rocks.

I waved and called to them to stop. I went over to their boat and said if you continue on this course between those black markers it probably will be your last ride this year because you will hit rocks. They had their chart out and looked confused. So I told them how to read the chart in this area. They said I can't understand the red and black markers. So just follow what the chart shows you. "Do you see the black markers?" Yes... "Do you see the no wake zone markers?' No should they not be Red? "No!" If you have any questions just try to follow the green dotted line on the chart guiding you to safe passage North of the Black Markers. Well they didn't get it. I said just follow me I will take you North of the Black markers and you might or may not be OK heading to your finale destination.

So not more then ten minutes later. I see this boat heading again trying to go between the two black markers. This time I stopped them and asked if they had a chart and if they knew how to go past the markers. They said yes the same direction we are going. I again said no that if you do it could be the last ride you will take this year in your boat because it will hit the rocks you are heading for.

So I thought to ask some basic questions. "Do you see the two black markers next to you?" Ok.. yes... but we didn't know what color they were. OK the sun is probably confusing you. So if confused check your chart and it will tell you that they are black and you should proceed North of the black markers. You will also see green dotted marks on the chart showing you safe passage.

Then I felt they had no clue what I was talking about. I said I want to help you. Black markers you stay North or East of them. So let's ask a key question. Do you know what way is North? The seemed to be uneducated driver of the boat looked at his compass and stared at it. Then a women yelled and pointed South and all others on the boat pointed South towards Farm Island. The driver looked up and said yes south is that way. Wrong! That is South and North is as I pointed to Chase Island. I suggested that they follow me and wished them good luck.

Then after all of this.... a third boat came the same direction. I held up a rock saying "ROCKS" and they waved back! That is it.... have done our good rock warning deed for this year. And I might add for those who have asked..... the Marine Patrol was very clear this past week by removing the red tide bottles that were out there. And now we have uneducated and educated boaters heading to hit the rocks again. It is out of our hands and into the hands of the governing lake authorities.

Have a wonderful time for the remaining part of the year. It was a beautiful day today and it could have been an awful day for some others.

Fair winds and happy sailing to all...............
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Old 09-28-2014, 10:15 PM   #112
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I don't really know where these rocks are.

I only go where I know it's safe and will only expand that with a chart in hand.

Thanks for saving the others.

Your good karma account must be pretty full by now.
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Old 09-29-2014, 06:17 AM   #113
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That is just amazing. And they think getting boating safety courses helped? You can't teach common sense.

We went by your place yesterday and saw the markers were gone. The MP came and took them away? What a shame, you are not allowed to help people today. Not that is the MP's fault. They have to do what they have to do I guess.
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Old 09-29-2014, 10:01 AM   #114
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Default how hard can it be

I had to cut through here a few weeks ago to see how this possibly could be confusing. The only thing I can imagine is you would probaby go through the wider part of the pass instead of close to the island if you HAD to guess.

A quick, and I mean 3 second look a the bizer chart clearly shows where to go.
I am really surprised folks can grasp the Bizer chart. How do they find there way home?

Cahsedawg, You may want to look in to moving the island away from the rocks. This is probably the only thing that would help.
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Old 09-29-2014, 02:10 PM   #115
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That is just amazing. And they think getting boating safety courses helped? You can't teach common sense.

We went by your place yesterday and saw the markers were gone. The MP came and took them away? What a shame, you are not allowed to help people today. Not that is the MP's fault. They have to do what they have to do I guess.
Stop in next time you are floating by. We didn't see you this time.
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Old 09-29-2014, 03:28 PM   #116
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I don't think you were there. It didn't look like anyone was around. It will have to be next year. We are taking the boats out Wed.
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Old 09-29-2014, 03:29 PM   #117
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Chase, you did your best!
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