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Old 02-21-2010, 09:14 PM   #201
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Thumbs up Intelligence Usually Rises Above...

Although, it can be a tough sled. Believe me Tom, most of us were absolutely crushed and dumb founded as to where the LAA was coming from.

They are counted on, and as well as the FAA in this Country to know just and very well what is relevant. None of us needs or wants any more ineptness from our Government agencies, especially in these most crucial times!

They need to get their heads on straight!!!!

Thank you for your update Tom!

Terry
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Old 02-22-2010, 08:59 AM   #202
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Here's hoping you best success with your FAA decison appeal, and hopefully a design-that-fits can be found. Laconia only knows too well what it's like to be out-of-work, what with its' second highest jobless rate in the state, after the northern most county which is a serious basket case.

Getting skydivers into the area during April-May-June, and Sept-Oct-Nov would be a helpfull boost to the local economy. Last November was the warmest November ever, followed by a much colder December starting on Dec 1. Sixty year old ladies was playing tennis outdoors, wearing summertime shorts & tees, on last November 11 in low-70 degee temps.

Go for it......and don't quit, no matter how long a federal decision appeal can take...!
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Old 04-28-2010, 10:49 AM   #203
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Default One giant step closer was made yesterday.

Greetings to all,

Just an update for those still interested. Our patience was rewarded yesterday, and an FAA agent from Flight Standards out of Washington DC came to the Laconia Municipal Airport and conducted a legitimate safety audit. In attendance were the Portland FSDO, the NHDOT Aeronautical Department, the local FAA Airport Division, the Laconia airport manager, a member of the LAA airport authority, the Laconia airport's legal council, owners of both FBOs, the Director of Government Relations for USPA and of course Mary and I.

Throughout the 3 hour meeting, it was made crystal clear to all in attendance by the FAA rep from Washington, that skydiving has a rightful place on municipal airports such as LCI and that the role of the airport sponsor is to promote all aeronautical activities, including skydiving. This point was emphasized throughout the entire proceedings.

I don't think we will ever win over a handful of certain local residents......but for those of whom that play any role in the airport's compliance requirements, atleast it was made clear yesterday that the FAA in Washington has an expectation that we will all work together to promote the airport and all aeronautical activities available to it.

Stay tuned........

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,
Tom
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Old 04-28-2010, 02:33 PM   #204
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So does being made "crystal clear" have any teeth at all Tom? Does LCI have to comply now or does more arm twisting have to be done as in withholding federal funds?
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Old 04-28-2010, 03:10 PM   #205
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Default Skydive Laconia

I don't want to speak for anyone on their side of the table, but I would have to guess (given the presence of the LAA's legal counsel), that they are all now fully aware that they will not be able to defend their recent denial using the previous report that was issued by the local FAA office.

As far as the message having any teeth, I cannot imagine that there was any person in that meeting that didn't leave it realizing that if skydiving is not allowed at LCI and Mary and I are forced to keep pushing this upstream at the FAA.......the end result will be a letter to the LAA from the FAA stating they have been found in non-compliance of their federal funding grant assurances and that they have 30 days to get into compliance (allow skydiving), or forfeit current federal funding and refund the last ten years of funding they received.

Personally I can't imagine why they would continue to try to cause us problems, but only time will tell.

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,

Tom

P.S. - I was reading in another thread that unemployment is up to 10% in Belknap County. If we were open, our season would have started April 1st, and there would be at a minimum 6 new jobs at our hangar, all filled by local residents. We'd have had customers coming up from Boston every week, buying gas, eating at the restaurants, staying at hotels, etc. If we were allowed to open in 2009 like we had originally planned, we'd have 12-15 jobs filled by local residents by now with over a 1000 customers having travelled to the area spending money at your businesses. Our season doesn't end until November 1st, so even after the Labor Day tourist evacuation of the Lakes Region, we would continue to be bringing customers to your businesses through Nov 1.

The reason I say this is that if I were you, I would all watch very closely the actions and votes of each member of the airport authority from here on out. Their actions affect you directly. The airport itself does not belong to 8 board members and two FBOs, the airport belongs to all of you.

I believe the seats on the board are appointed positions? Who makes the appointments? It's your economy that hangs in the balance of their actions and decisions, only you can hold them accountable.

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Old 04-28-2010, 10:03 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RI Swamp Yankee View Post
Why would any normal person even want to jump out of a working airplane?
Well, ... I wrote that way back in the beginning of his thread, with tongue in cheek. While I would not want to jump I appreciate that others love the sport.

TheNoonans have more than adequately addressed and explained any concerns I had about in later posts about the safety of jumping into a working airfield and they have done it in a manner that reflects the professionals that they are.

This quote disturbs me:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNoonans View Post
... Basically, the local FSDO went out to the airport and was told that they have a concern about landing parachutes affecting the IFR glideslope ....
I think the FSDO needs some training in electronics and radio systems if they believe the parachutes would be a problem. There is more chance that an aircraft or heli would affect the signal than a parachute. Maybe they should ban aircraft! Yes, that is a foolish statement, just as foolish as banning parachutes. ( I worked on that equipment many years ago at NAS Quonset point before it closed.)

Hopefully this summer I will be able to sit outside at Sawyers, enjoying the ice cream, and watching the chutes float down to the airport.

An interesting afterthought, I have seldom seen aircraft comming or going while enjoying my ice cream outside at Sawyers.
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Old 04-28-2010, 11:10 PM   #207
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Default Taking A Plus From A positive...?

Dear Tom, most of us are still very interested in seeing Skydive Laconia through it's fruition and to beyond be very successful.
All Entrepreneur's' should take a look in what you have put into the process... Facts, knowledge and The Great Spirit!
Fortitude, patience and resolve!

You have shown us all, and I for one believe that you are also looking out for our best interests!

Rock on, my friend!



Terry
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Old 06-29-2010, 06:43 PM   #208
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This thread is a bit old but I wonder if there is anything new.

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Old 06-30-2010, 05:32 PM   #209
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Default Skydive Laconia

Hi RI Swamp Yankee,

We're still here.....lol.

Basically, as we understand it, the FAA rep that came from Washington issued a report that, as we expected, found no reason why skydiving could not exist on the Laconia airport. The only thing left that could be debated on a local level was whether or not our presence would obstruct the IFR Glide Slope. I guess it's one of those "many, many concerns" that were implied but not stated back in Janaury of 2009......when this thread was first created. Anyways, based on our extensive research, we could find nothing that showed we posed any issues to the glide slope (more info on that back up the thread). And that the ILS approach was only critical when the ceiling was 800ft or lower and planes were flying in IFR conditions. The problem (for the otherside) is that we only skydive in VFR conditions, so that issue couldn't be used against us. Despite that being the only factual piece of information available about glide slopes, somewthere on their side of the table, someone is frantically looking for anything they can find to prove otherwise. If the otherside has shown anything, it is the power of a beauracracy to delay the just (us?). We are simply waiting for whatever info they believe is out there.......

So that's where we are at right now.

Not to worry though, as I said before, Mary and I are not going anywhere, and we have legal precendence on our side. There will either be skydiving on the airport in the near future or a forfeiture of their federal funding. I'd prefer they keep the funding and let us skydive, we'll see how they decide to handle it.

The dropzone I am at while we are forced to wait, had 500 tandem students (with additional non jumping guests) come out over the last seven days to skydive. Most drove 1-2 hours to get here. Thats about 750 people patronizing the local restaurants, bars, hotels and gas stations in the LAST WEEK. We expect another 1000 people this week. The 35 employees and contractors (that's 35 jobs) that I work with at our dropzone were all thrilled to have them. Skydiving based tourists and jobs should be at the Laconia Airport. Currently they are not...........

What cracks me up the most is that when I am not skydiving, I fly right seat in the Twin Otter and watch our plane share the same airspace with jets, both commercial Boeings and those little ones that the LAA is so afraid we'll scare away......all in harmony. Oh, and our runway is 13 miles from one of the largest international airports on the east coast. But hey, maybe jet pilots are simply trained better down here? (I'm kidding of course........we must actually be endangering them for our own financial gain, right? )

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,

Tom
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Old 12-06-2010, 03:55 PM   #210
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Default Skydive Laconia

Hi Folks, I have followed this thread and am wondering, anything new?
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Old 01-17-2011, 07:12 AM   #211
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Default any news?

Just curious as well if anything is new on this subject
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Old 01-18-2011, 03:45 PM   #212
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Default Skydive Laconia

Greetings to all,

Just wanted to follow up with an update. Please forgive my lack of activity here as of late, Mary and I, like many of you, are simply playing the waiting game. The FAA came up from Washington, DC last year and we all got together with the LAA and their lawyer. The FAA (federal, not local) stated, as we expected, that there wasn't any issue with skydiving on the airport. Local FAA admin still wanted to review our landing area proposal as they felt, without any factual evidence to support it, that our original landing area was too close to the ILS equipment and that our parachutes would affect it's operation. Rather than argue the fact, we simply submitted a new landing area proposal away from the ILS equipment. That was back in September 2010.......

Still waiting........

The good news is, we are still fully committed to bringing skydiving to the airport and have not been swayed an inch by all the red tape/delay tactics thrown at us. The majority voice continues to speak: The community believes the airport belongs to them, not a handful of people and pilots. Jobs and economic stimulus to the area. That's what we bring to the table.

In the interum, we continue to skydive over Mount Everest and continue to skydive locally in the US beside Leer jets, Life Flight helicopters, and air traffic ten times that of LCI. Landing on airports the same size or smaller. And guess what, not a single pilot was ever scared by the parachutes, and not single skydiver hit an airplane.......

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight.

Tom
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Old 01-18-2011, 05:11 PM   #213
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Default Still Waiting....

I admire your tenacity and your patience as you wade through the muck of all the red tape.
Have you tried bribes? (just kidding!!)
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Old 01-18-2011, 07:46 PM   #214
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Does LAA stan for Local Airport Advisory?
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Old 01-18-2011, 09:18 PM   #215
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Default LAA Stands For...

the Laconia Airport Authority.

I hope this helps.

Terry
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Old 01-18-2011, 11:13 PM   #216
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I believe it is Laconia Airport Authority.
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:26 PM   #217
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Default Add Vantage, A Bigger Picture...

The Noonans are welcome and my hope is that, they are included and find, that what they can bring us all will diminish some of the red tape that they have had to endure.
They offer an alternative and JOBS as well. Some may get rattled, who among us hasn't.
They will bring us photos that others haven't.
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Old 04-04-2011, 12:35 PM   #218
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Default Skydive Laconia

Greetings to all,

I just returned from a skydiving trip and came across this article in the Citizen:

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...WS02/703249667

Apparently the Gilford Selectmen have voted not to endorse our proposal.

Mary and I find it curious for two reasons:

1) The current ADO review of the airfield is projected to be concluded in two weeks. Based on what has occurred within the FAA after that initial grossly erroneous report was published, it is our expectation that a fair, factual report will finally be issued that will find no reason for the landing area to be considered "objectionable". If the FAA finds no fault in our proposal, that is basically the last stall tactic that the LAA could throw in our way........

It is my guess that in an 11th hour strategy meeting behind closed doors, the idea came up to go the Selectmen and ask them to vote not to support us. I'm sure that request came with all sorts of horror stories of what skydiving was like 30 years ago. And the Selectmen voted to not support us.

This vote was done after we have had our proposal on the table for almost three years, so why now?

2) It was also made without any input from us the business owners. Why do you think that was? Perhaps the small group of people that don't want us there thought it would be easier to spread the fear if the Selectmen lacked the facts.

The point is this. Whether the Selectmen endorse us or not is not the issue. The issue is that they made a vote without any factual information. A vote that directly affects everyone of you in the community. We will bring jobs and $1,000,000 of economic stimulus to the area (and we can prove it). If I were a Selectman, even if I didn't like the idea and even if I was friends with the small group of residents of strong influence in the community that oppose us, I would still make sure I had every fact possible before voting on something that would affect my entire community. That did not occur. Does that concern anyone? It concerns me. Agreeing or disagreeing with our proposal is freedom of choice. They are elected officials, elected to vote their conscience to serve the community. I get that, and I respect that. But to vote on anything that will directly impact the financial future of the community without doing their due diligence is a questionable decision in my mind. What do you think?

selectmen@gilfordnh.org is their email address. I encourage you to write them. I'm not asking you to write them in support of us. We would be grateful if you did, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking you, the community they are elected to serve, to ask of your Selectmen how they justify voting on something they know nothing about, without hearing all sides of the story. If it was done with us, what other votes are being made that way? That's the issue that should concern us all.

Below is the email I sent to the Selectmen today:

Selectmen,

My name is Tom Noonan. My wife and I are the proposed business operators of Skydive Laconia. We read with great interest in the Citizen that the board recently voted not to endorse skydiving at the airport.

I am writing to inquire if the Selectmen have any interest in learning more about our business proposal and modern day skydiving operations. Selectman Hayes was quoted in the article citing a concern about the Fire Department's training facility. Modern parachutes have accuracy and directional control similar to aircraft, and pose no reasonable threat to the training facility, this is a quantifiable and provable fact. Certain people at the airport would like to lead you to believe otherwise, but there are no facts available to them to support their claim. Selectman Hayes is also quoted as saying he saw "several problems" with our proposal. We would very much like to meet with Selectman Hayes and the entire board to discuss any concerns that they may have with our proposal. We would also like to ask why we were not contacted to address any of their perceived problems?

The truth is, for three years, my wife and I have followed every protocol and step to bring a legal and viable business to the airport. Our business will infuse about a dozen new jobs in the town and about a $1,000,000 of economic impact to local Inns, Restaurants, and businesses. Selectman Hayes stated that our presence would affect the current businesses at the airport. The truth is, the airport is currently almost barren of businesses based on the current economy and the way the LAA rules over the airport. There are only two businesses on the airport at the moment, both long standing FBOs with flight schools. Thanks to federal funding and the LAA, they have the airport to themselves and want to keep it that way. That is where 99% of the minimal opposition to our business is coming from. Despite their claims, neither will be adversely affected by our business model. They are simply making uneducated claims based on what skydiving was thirty years ago, not what it is today. Your airport is designed to serve the community as a whole, not just those two business owners.

We understand our proposal is a classic case of NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) and that a select few people in town with positions of influence do not want us there. They have used every stall tactic available and now, as it seems the FAA will mostlikely issue a ruling in two weeks stating all of the "safety concerns" of the LAA are unfounded, they have turned to you to attempt to block us. Why else would the Selectmen choose now as the time to make such a vote on this issue as it has been on the table with the LAA for almost three years now?

It's a shame really. Not that you voted to oppose our operation, but that you did it without seeking out all of the available data. We are experts in our industry, and I can assure you a number of things:

1) The Laconia Municipal Airport is an ideal location in terms of size and air traffic to support a skydiving operation.
2) The current air traffic will not leave for other locations. (John Marriott's pilot will still fly his private jet into LCI if we are there.)
3) Student pilots will not be adversely at risk. Student training programs across the country operate at airports with skydiving operations and train students to safely fly at airports with parachutes.
4) Our business will bring 2000+ people to the area from April 1 - Oct 31st each season.
5) Our business will bring a dozen new jobs to the area and train locals to work anywhere in the world off season.
6) Despite the vocal minority, the vast majority of the community actually wants us at the airport. Please visit www.winnipesaukee.com and look under the General Discussions forum for "Skydive Laconia". It has been viewed over 20,000 times and 90% or more of the responses are positive.
7) The LAA has used "big government" bureaucracy to stall our proposal as long as possible and have been allowed to get away with it by the local FAA.
8) We have offered repeatedly to do demonstration skydives into the airport for the LAA and the community to illustrate how minimally intrusive our presence will be on the airfield. The LAA has flatly denied our request each time because they know as soon as the community sees how safe and accurate our parachutes are, the fear mongering will not hold any water any longer. If we do demonstration jumps, the LAA will no longer be able to cite "safety concerns" when we show the community there are none.

It is with all of that in mind, I would like to ask the Selectmen to consider the following:

The airport is intended to serve the community as a whole, not just a select few in a position of power and authority. As Selectmen, it is your duty to ensure that any decision that affects the community as a whole and it's economy, is reviewed to the fullest extent before issuing a ruling. I ask you to consider three requests:

1) Allow my wife and I an audience to address your concerns and allow us the opportunity to provide factual information to support our proposal.
2) Provide us a Town Hall open forum to address the community at large.
3) Allow us to make demonstration skydives onto the airport to illustrate how non-intrusive we really are. Invite current business owners in the area and airport business owners to observe.

If you do all of that, and then reach a conclusion as to whether or not you believe that we will be a good fit in the community, you will be serving the community as a whole. We humbly request that you consider that course of action.

Best regards,

Tom Noonan
Skydive Laconia


Lastly back to the thread: The "FAA" never issued a report saying the landing area was unsafe. A local branch of the FAA, called the "ADO" issued a report citing the landing area as "objectionable". Every line item used to find it objectionable was seen by "Higher Ups" within the FAA as being completely erroneous. The ADO, for reasons beyond my understanding, has elected to keep a grossly erroneous document in the public realm without issuing a retraction. I will post both the report and detail all of it's inaccuracies shortly. Suffice to say, the FAA at a Federal level is aware of all of this and we plan to take it to the top of that chain when this is over.
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Old 04-04-2011, 02:33 PM   #219
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For the conspiracy theorists out there......lol

I forgot to add this to my last post:

Somewhere around the summer of 2009, Mary and I submitted our Skydive Laconia business plan and proposal. We provided it to the airport manager who in turn (appropriately) provided it to the members of the LAA board.

Now fast forward to March, 2011. It seems somehow the Gilford Selectmen received a copy of our business plan and proposal. Selectman Hayes is even quoted in the paper as saying he found "many safety concerns" with our proposal. He obviously had it and obviously read it.

Odd thing is, we never submitted our business plan or proposal to the town Selectmen. That means someone else provided it to them. Someone else had it put on the March 23rd agenda and put to a vote. All without our knowledge........interesting, huh?

The first I was even told about the vote was a week after it happened with the link to the article was sent to me.

So, let me ask all of the conspiracy theorists out there a question........

Why would someone in an appointed position of authority (the LAA) "allegedly" provide someone else's business plan to a town selectmen committee and put it on an agenda and have it put to a vote, WITHOUT informing the persons that 1) created the proposal, 2) can provide FACTUAL information about the proposal and 3) have their contact information on the proposal?

If you would like to email the Laconia Airport Authority yourselves and ask them who provided the Selectmen our business plan without our knowledge, their email is:

laa@metrocast.net

Who knows they will probably email you a copy of our proposal too.......lol

In the end we are not bothered the Selectmen received a copy. We would have given them one ourselves. But all this back room politics is getting a little out of hand.

We are actually pretty amazed that our little business plan had created such a back room political spin to it. It just goes to show how resistant to change and forward progress some people truly are.

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,

Tom
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Old 04-04-2011, 03:23 PM   #220
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Tom,I for one have skydived indoor and out of a plane. I think your plan brings a positive finacial impact to the region as well as a recreational one. I have just emailed the LAA requesting info from them reguarding weather a member had the item put on the agenda,if you pm me I will forward you a copy of the request. Rob
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Old 04-04-2011, 03:26 PM   #221
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Cool Really?

So Tom says "Modern parachutes have accuracy and directional control similar to aircraft". Apparently the chutes of the Golden Knights aren't as good: “Golden Knight gets stuck on ballpark flagpole”, Army Times, August 2010.

As for the Selectmen, perhaps they were influenced by this very recent incident; One dead after skydivers collide in Kentucky"

And he says: "We will bring jobs and $1,000,000 of economic stimulus to the area (and we can prove it)."

Please do so. I'm sure we would all like to see the "proof"!
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Old 04-04-2011, 04:12 PM   #222
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Just my opinion: Small time thinking yields small brained results.

I was initially opposed to this Skydiving proposal. Then, I got motivated and did some research. My opposition was based on limited thinking. After digging into what is happening very safely throughout this country and planet, I have concluded this Skydiving proposal is a solid, well-thought out proposal. I also concluded that the FAA has significantly more knowledge about this than anyone on any local NH board. If it works for the FAA, it works for me.

I do not pay taxes to Gilford. I pay much more that my share to Laconia. However, this well-thought-out skydiving proposal has a regional impact, as it brings revenue into our area. It is time to look at what has been non-traditional revenue sources to support our local towns. Gone are the days of sticking uncontrolled, local expenses mainly on the backs of out-of-state property owners.

Who do these small thinkers on the Gilford Board of Selectmen think they are fooling? The Ames Farm thinking on their part is/was a mess, and now this! Please, if you are a Giilford Selectman, get the town out and fix the potholes and leave these issues to the proper federal authorities that are more able to think and make fair decisions. Your kangaroo court antics are getting tired! If you want a fair discussion, let both sides of the argument be heard. This is the USA, even in your little world of Gilford, NH.

For the record, I have no desire to jump out of a perfectly air capable aircraft and I have not met and do I know the Noonans. I just have had it with the small-brain thinking I see all too often around this area, an area where I have a significant, but dwindling, real estate investment.

R2B

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Old 04-04-2011, 04:39 PM   #223
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Hi Bill!

I missed not being able to exchange ideas with you on here, thank you for responding.

The Golden Knights in question were performing a stunt into a stadium. What they were doing was called CReW (Canopy Relative Work). It is a fringe discipline that has nothing to do with our skydiving proposal. Bringing a "2 Stack" into a Stadium is akin to an acrobatic pilot flying inverted 10 ft off the runway. When a stunt plane crashes, is that indicative of the safety of how you fly your plane? I don't think it is. Same situation with the example you posted. But thank you for sharing it, again you allow me the opportunity to share facts with the community.

Regarding Kentucky, there was an accident. Two skydivers collided in the air and one died. Same thing that happens when aircraft collide. Should we ban two planes over the airport at the same time? The facts, yes facts, are two airplanes collide with each other in flight about once every ten days in the US. If the Selectmen are that concerned with risk, then only one plane at a time should be allowed in the air over Laconia. And what about motorcycles? Should Gilford ban motorcycles and denounce bike week? People die doing all sorts of of things. The fact is skydiving collisions and fatalities are so less likely to occur than aircraft collisions and motorcycle collisions that they are not even in the same league based on volume.

I will be happy to prove my claims of economic stimulus, but not to you. You don't get that information Bill, sorry. Your not exactly unbiased here, ya know.....lol I will be happy to share that information with the Gilford Selectmen in a private or public forum. Perhaps you'll attend the meeting and share with the Selectmen the tremendous economic impact your aerial photo business has on the local community? I asked you awhile ago here, (and you never answered by the way), how many jobs does your aerial photography business create? How many people to you employ full time? I have answered just about every one of your off the wall fear inducing questions, how about doing me the courtesy of answering those two questions? What specifically does your business generate in the local community in terms of jobs and economic impact?

The day we open, that's eight new jobs. 3-6 months later, it will be up to 12 new jobs. Thats a fact.

As always, we wish you well Bill.

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,

Tom

P.S.- I don't think I ever said that skydiving was "safe". You can get injured or killed doing just about anything these days. My point to any and all is this: Like Bill, you can look far and wide and find something on the internet that looks scary, and when taken out of context as a stand alone situation, it can look like whatever he wants to paint it as (like the Golden Knights example he just posted). But the reality of these scare tactic examples is simply this, these things have nothing to do with our proposal. We don't bring anything more or less risky to the airport than the flight schools or Bike Week on the highways. (Less so in terms of risk to be honest). And reading these scare tactic examples of Bill's keeps bringing me to the same conclusion about him and the minority opposition, and that is that they really have no idea of what we are proposing to do and what modern day skydiving really looks like. Every example that is posted to scare you just further illustrates the point. If you knew what I knew and let me share that information and facts with you, everyone would be on the same page and we would be happily co-existing with the two FBOs on the airfield.

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Old 04-04-2011, 04:54 PM   #224
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Hi Rob

Thank you for your support and for sending an email to the LAA. My email is the_noonans@yahoo.com.

It really is amazing the lengths some people will go to resist change, even positive change. No where else in the country has there been a mass migration of GA pilots because a skydiving operation opened up. If anything GA flights will increase as some skydivers actually own planes and fly them too.

Competent flight instructors can train student pilots to fly with parachutes on the airfield. Imagine graduating from one of these two flight schools and the instructor saying "Congratulations on earning your really expensive private pilots license! Now here are a list of the 290+ GA airports across the country that you can't fly to because we didn't train you how to fly to airports with skydiving operations on the airfield. Remember! Airports with skydiving operations are not safe because those parachutes will distract you!"

I mean seriously, Middleton, RI (Newport, RI really) has one of the most beautiful airports in New England, and they have a skydiving operation with TWO planes dropping skydivers. No collisions, no scared student pilots, they enjoy an integrated and peaceful co-existence. If you train to fly at the Laconia flight schools, better cross off that airport in your flight planning, there are parachutes there!"

The irony is that being able to flight train on an airfield with parachutes will make the students BETTER pilots. It's actually a selling point for both flight schools. But, ugh, its change and it's having to work with others instead of having the place to themselves.

But don't worry, fuel prices are forecasted to spike ridiculously high this summer and there is another recession just around the corner equal to the one we just had according to the economists. Less and less people will be able to afford something as expensive as a Private Pilots license and renting aircraft.

Those that oppose us don't believe that having a relatively recession proof skydiving business isn't going to keep money and jobs in your local economy during hard times.......but that two flight schools and an aerial photographer will certainly do that for sure though........maybe John Marriott will open a hotel on the lake and bring more jobs? After all that's their argument. If we are allowed to operate, Mr. Marriott won't fly in to his beach house. (Trust me, he still will) But how many of you benefit directly from Mr. Marriott's private jet landing at the airport. How many of you benefit from his jet's $10,000 fuel sale one of the FBOs is so fearful of losing?

Oh well, stay tuned to see what their next trick will be!

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight!

Tom

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Old 04-04-2011, 05:11 PM   #225
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Resident2b has it correct,for some unknown reason a few people that unfortunately have some sort of clout in Gilford won't remove the blinders and allow an open minded and informed process to take place. I for one applaud the efforts of the Noonans. In this very difficult economic envirment anyone looking to invest wisely in local economy should be applauded and encouraged. I hope you continue and are very successful in your endevor. I do not know the Noonans or am I affiliated with Skydive Laconia,but do support and encourage their effort and look forward to the grand opening. Rob
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Old 04-04-2011, 05:55 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident 2B View Post
Just my opinion: Small time thinking yields small brained results.

I was initially opposed to this Skydiving proposal. Then, I got motivated and did some research. My opposition was based on limited thinking. After digging into what is happening very safely throughout this country and planet, I have concluded this Skydiving proposal is a solid, well-thought out proposal. I also concluded that the FAA has significantly more knowledge about this than anyone on any local NH board. If it works for the FAA, it works for me.

I do not pay taxes to Gilford. I pay much more that my share to Laconia. However, this well-thought-out skydiving proposal has a regional impact, as it brings revenue into our area. It is time to look at what has been non-traditional revenue sources to support our local towns. Gone are the days of sticking uncontrolled, local expenses mainly on the backs of out-of-state property owners.

Who do these small thinkers on the Gilford Board of Selectmen think they are fooling? The Ames Farm thinking on their part is/was a mess, and now this! Please, if you are a Giilford Selectman, get the town out and fix the potholes and leave these issues to the proper federal authorities that are more to think and make fair decisions. Your kangaroo court antics are getting tired! If you want a fair discussion, let both sides of the argument be heard. This is the USA, even in your little world of Gilford, NH.

For the record, I have no desire to jump out of a perfectly air capable aircraft and I have not met and do I know the Noonans. I just have had it with the small-brain thinking I see all too often around this area, an area where I have a significant, but dwindling, real estate investment.

R2B

WOW! Did you ever hit the nail on the head, over here!

Everyone knows that Laconia Airport is FAA funded and as such, under a very clearly defined obligation in the Noonan's favor. Now that the Gilford "Selectmen, and very few others" have gotten involved publicly, to continue to Stonewall and hoard the Airport to themselves, they may find that they were instrumentally responsible for losing FAA funding, and may have to find part time jobs to foot the entire bill... Does anyone know the state of Gilford's taxes today?

The Noonan's are Saints, in my view in that they have shown such patience and resolve in this matter.
I'm here for Ya,
Terry
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Old 04-04-2011, 07:02 PM   #227
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You know what....I have no clew why there is so much "Official" opposition to this proposal. Let's just look at it from this point of view.

SO: Will a sky diver come crashing through the roof of my house nearby...? Will YOU DIE as a result of a mistake by a skydiver misjudging his landing point.

FACT: These Skydiving Tourists are NOT jumping out of airplanes on their own.

These Skydiving Tourists are jumping in Tandem with professional jumpers. What does THAT mean...? That means that the Tourist Jumper is Hugging a Professional jumper that is controlling the whole event. TWO jumpers on ONE parachute with a Professional controlling the jump. That's what Tourist Skydiving is about.

So the cynical part..if these people want to risk their lives..just like motorcycle riders do every time they ride.. why get in their way.....? They're not getting in Your Way..are they...?

For the Record: I am a Private Pilot AND a motorcycle rider with over 200,000 "touring" miles. NB
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Old 04-04-2011, 07:44 PM   #228
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What I don't understand about the whole thing is how the board of selectmen could vote on something without even letting them present there side of there story. That to me is wrong on so many levels! And no I don't know the owners and I would never jump out of an airplane, but come on they deserve to be at least heard.
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Old 04-04-2011, 08:06 PM   #229
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As a Gilford resident I plan on contacting the selectman's office and express my support for this new business. I really believe that they have not heard the "whole story". I plan to ask that they hold a full public hearing on this.

http://www.gilfordnh.org/Public_Docu...omm/selectmen2

There is a link on the site to send comments.

The meeting notes for the 3/23/11 meeting have not yet been published.
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Old 04-04-2011, 08:12 PM   #230
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SteveA,

Since you are a resident of Gilford, they should at least listen to you.

I do not think it was right for them to render a decision supporting one side without having any time or desire to listen to the other side. Their creditability as a group is very poor and sinking.

I expect much more from my public officials and when I think they are not doing their job, I let them know.

Thanks for stepping up.

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Old 04-05-2011, 07:47 AM   #231
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Quote:
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So Tom says "Modern parachutes have accuracy and directional control similar to aircraft". Apparently the chutes of the Golden Knights aren't as good: “Golden Knight gets stuck on ballpark flagpole”, Army Times, August 2010.

As for the Selectmen, perhaps they were influenced by this very recent incident; One dead after skydivers collide in Kentucky"

And he says: "We will bring jobs and $1,000,000 of economic stimulus to the area (and we can prove it)."

Please do so. I'm sure we would all like to see the "proof"!
This is almost like the speed limit argument.
So you cite 2 skydiving accidents. How many successful skydives are there in a year? What exactly are the numbers?
I would be willing to bet that skydiving is safer statistically then driving in my car.
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Old 04-05-2011, 08:20 AM   #232
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Quote:
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SteveA,

Since you are a resident of Gilford, they should at least listen to you.

I do not think it was right for them to render a decision supporting one side without having any time or desire to listen to the other side. Their creditability as a group is very poor and sinking.

I expect much more from my public officials and when I think they are not doing their job, I let them know.

Thanks for stepping up.

R2B
They have no credibility. Gilford Town Officials think they are "Kings" and they like to "rule the kingdom" as such. I've had my run-ins with them as well, and know many other business people in town that have had negative experiences with them. It's high time that they get replaced with pro-business members.
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Old 04-05-2011, 11:55 AM   #233
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For those of you that live in Laconia, I thought I would offer this post. The Airport Authority consists of mostly appointed positions. The Mayor of Laconia is one of the non appointed seats. I think it's seat of the Chairman, but I cannot find anyone willing to confirm that.

With that said, I have just submitted the following email to the Mayor of Laconia at citycouncil@city.state.nh.us :

Mr. Mayor,

My name is Tom Noonan. My wife and I submitted a request to operate a skydiving business with the LAA back in late 2008. We have since attended multiple LAA meetings and have been met with a tremendous amount of resistance from the board.

I am writing you today to discuss a specific issue and ask for your official opinion as the Chairman of the Airport Authority.

It seems that recently either the airport manager, or a board member of the LAA provided the Gilford Selectmen a copy of our business proposal without our knowledge or consent. Further, our proposal was then placed on the town's agenda and voted on. All without our knowledge. We believe this was done because a decision from the FAA is due in a few weeks that will most likely pave the way for our approval.

We consider the actions of the person or persons that submitted our proposal and orchestrated our exclusion from the town meeting process as a breach of the ethical responsibilities of the LAA. We are deserving of the same rights and due process of any other business on the airfield. In this case a concerted effort was clearly made by the LAA (in part or in whole) or the Airport Manager (or both) to attempt to defraud the Gilford Selectmen of the opportunity to learn about a business that is projected to bring $1,000,000 of economic impact to the region and a dozen new jobs.

The spirit and intent of the LAA is to ensure that all aeronautical activities receive the same fair and impartial treatment and due process. The LAA has made a clearly concerted effort over the last three years to ignore that role in favor of protecting the business interests of select few people of power in the community. This last example is the most bold to date, and I am asking you to make a statement on the actions, to go on record.

If in your investigation, you find these allegations are true (which they are and easily can be proven), I would ask that you as the Chairman of the Airport Authority, remove any member of the board that was involved in this latest attempt to fraudulently derail our proposal. To do anything less is to endorse fraud and the failure of the board members involved to live up to the role and responsibility of the position they were appointed to.

Your predecessor Matt Lahey ignored virtually every attempt I have ever made in the past to communicate with him regarding the conduct of the members of the LAA. I sincerely hope that your position will not be the same. (At a minimum, I would like to ask that you at least respond to confirm receipt of this email. Mr. Lahey would not even respond to confirm receipt of our emails, despite his secretary confirming well after the fact that he received them all.)

If you wish to learn more about our struggle and the positive economic growth we are trying to bring to the area, I invite you to visit the website: www.winnipesaukee.com, click on the "General Forums" and then open the thread entitled "Skydive Laconia?". It will chronicle the vast majority of the struggles we have been forced to endure.

Thank you for your time. I can be reached by phone or via email any time. I would like to offer you and the Laconia council the opportunity to ask questions of our proposal and learn more about our proposal. We are happy to meet with you at your earliest convenience. Our business will bring positive economic contributions to the entire region, not just Gilford, hence our treatment by the LAA and the breakdown of this process affects your citizens' economic future as well.

Best regards,

Tom Noonan


I encourage anyone that lives in Laconia to contact the city council and share their thoughts on this process with the Mayor and City Council.

Blue skies, to all and to all a good flight,

Tom
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Old 04-05-2011, 02:01 PM   #234
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Quote:
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So Tom says "Modern parachutes have accuracy and directional control similar to aircraft". Apparently the chutes of the Golden Knights aren't as good: “Golden Knight gets stuck on ballpark flagpole”, Army Times, August 2010.

As for the Selectmen, perhaps they were influenced by this very recent incident; One dead after skydivers collide in Kentucky"

And he says: "We will bring jobs and $1,000,000 of economic stimulus to the area (and we can prove it)."

Please do so. I'm sure we would all like to see the "proof"!
Lets see two incidents in the last 9 months.....I don't think I have gone a week in the last nine months without seeing a picture of at least one upside down crashed private plane on the news with the pilot dead or at least signifcantly injured.
I have no horse in this race...all these folks are trying to do is make a living
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Old 04-05-2011, 02:04 PM   #235
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Tom, I think that your approach to the Mayor is too informal. Although more and more business is done through informal emails, dealing with government is still the domain of real mail.

I would send the Mayor a concise, polite letter by certified mail. Ask him to do very specific things, acknowledge your letter, acknowledge or deny the transfer of the business proposal, and ask for redress.

If you want to impress him with your struggle as chronicled on this website, printout and send just the key excerpts. I would not expect the Mayor to research the forum to find why your struggle is important to Laconia.

I would then send a copy of the letter to the town newspapers and his political rivals.
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Old 04-05-2011, 05:01 PM   #236
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Okay so last email to post today was the email I sent to the Mayor of Laconia and the Gilford Selectmen regarding the LAA and their actions regarding the back room politics that let to the Selectmen issuing a vote.

Mr Mayor and Selectmen,

The NHDOT Supervisor of Aeronautical Planning has forwarded me the LAA Enabling Legislation amended in 1999, it is the most current document the LAA operates from.

In the document section 13 it states:

II. After public hearing, any of the appointed members of the Authority may be removed by a majority vote of the appointive agency upon written findings of cause, including but not limited to inefficiency, neglect of duty, or malfeasance. The member of the Authority appointed by Belknap county commissioners and the member of the Authority appointed by the Gilford board of selectmen may be removed only by a majority vote of their respective agencies. The mayor of the city of Laconia may be removed from the Authority only through the vacancy of his or her office as mayor.

It is our position that practically every member of the LAA from the period of July 2008 onward has purposely set out to delay the resolution of our business proposal with the clear intent to be as inefficient as possible. Therefore subjecting practically every LAA member to being found guilty of inefficiency.

I would ask you in considering the responsibility, power and role of your position as Chairman, to individually interview each member of the LAA and ask them if they have ever conspired in part or in whole as a group to delay our proposal process. If the members possess any integrity at all, they will respond to you honestly. What you choose to do with that knowledge is up to you.

Regarding a charge of negligence of duty, section 13:9 states:

13:9 Declaration of Purpose. The establishment and maintenance of the airport authorized in section 8 is declared to be for public purposes as an aid to national and state defense and for the convenience of the public, and the Authority shall be regarded as performing a governmental function in carrying out the provisions of this act.

This requires each member to approach every proposal from an unbiased perspective and strive to promote every aeronautical activity that can be accommodated on the airport. The fact that the LAA disagreed with our proposal does not constitute a negligence of duty, but failing to consider the truthful, factual information provided to them in weighing their decisions does constitute negligence of duty. If answered truthfully, practically no one on the board would honestly say they acted and voted without personal bias and personal agenda. A skydiving operation can be supported on the airport, it's a provable, quantifiable fact. That the airport authority failed to consider those facts in it's decision making process constitutes a negligence of duty. Attempting to protect the interests of a select few people in the community when the clear majority of the community's best interests were neglected in this process also constitutes an egregious negligence of duty, as their biases and actions were down right flagrant. Refusal to consider valid, factual information in their review process is a clear case of negligence of duty. As an example outside our proposal, imagine what the impact on our legal system would be if jury's were allowed to rendered decisions without considering all of the facts introduced, using only the ones they wanted to consider?

Separately and most importantly, regarding the removal of authority members, Item 13, Section II states that any member of the board that is found to be malfeasant, can also be removed. While inefficiency and negligence of duty can be in part subjective, malfeasance is more clearly definable:

Malfeasance: "wrongdoing or improper or dishonest conduct, especially by a person who holds public office or a position of trust"

The act of providing our business plan to the Selectmen of Gilford without our knowledge or consent by any members of the airport authority is a clear case of malfeasance. That the act was then orchestrated to be put on the Gilford Selectmen's agenda and voted on with the clear intent to keep us uninformed of the meeting and the vote only goes to further support the seriousness of malfeasance charge.

The preceding information is clear, unbiased and definable as fact. What you, the Mayor of Laconia and the Chairman of the Airport Authority chooses to do with this information is up to you. If past precedence of your position is any indication, I suspect nothing will be done. It is with a small glimmer of hope however, I would like to think that this is an opportunity for the new Chairman of the Airport Authority to become the positive change that so many members of the community are pleading for, and return the airport and the LAA to what it was intended to be. An airport meant to serve the community as a whole. The truth is the vast majority of your residents have nothing but disdain for the LAA and the way it treats the community members and how they rule to suit their own biases and agendas. (I have personally witnessed a board member scream at a resident during a meeting over a question of vehicle access. In a calm manner the resident pilot repeated his question to the board member as he didn't understand the board member's answer and was point blank screamed at to stop talking by the board member.) Over the last three years I have spoken with countless local pilots, real estate owners, business owners and residents. And my conclusion based on personal experience, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, is that the vast majority of the local community has no confidence in the airport authority or how the authority performs it's role. You will not hear that however, as these same people are fearful of going on record, less they find themselves the target of the LAA's ire. That is why you probably have not heard much, if any complaints from your community. Create an environment where your citizens can speak opening and honestly about their view of the LAA without fear or repercussion, and you will be in disbelief to the extent and depth that the disapproval really goes. That is fact, whether you choose to acknowledge it or remedy the situation is up to you.

In closing, I humbly request that the Chairman of the Airport Authority investigate the above allegations and consider removing any member from the board found guilty of violating the above expectations. The community will applaud you for it and it may very well be the first step in earning back the authority's trust and respect from the community.

Respectfully submitted,

Tom Noonan
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Old 04-05-2011, 05:26 PM   #237
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Now for the bad news.......lol

It seems during all this down time, the LAA has scoured the internet to find any and all cause to deny us. What a surprise......lol.

They have issued yet another denial of our proposal, this time with pictures and charts! Before the FAA has even ruled on the landing area. How's that for letting the FAA due it's due diligence and rule on safety issues.

The best parts are that

1) They actually quoted my postings here on the Winnipesaukee forum, which means they actually read the posts. (Hope it wasn't billable hours). And of course I am quoted out of context. The paragraph somewhere up there where I referenced the economic impact of landing off the airport and having to drive back to the dropzone as being "uneconomical". The quote of course stops short of somewhere else in the above thread where I state (as an industry expert) that 99% of skydiving operations land on airports and AOPA actually states that landing on the airport is the safest place to land parachutes.

2) They used that grossly inaccurate ADO report that I mentioned earlier as the primary basis for their denial. Big government bureaucracy alive and well......lol

So, for now anyways, the airport belongs to two FBOs, an aerial photographer, an airport manager and the airport authority. It's their kingdom, we are not welcome.

Of course the next step is to patiently wait until April 15th for the FAA to state it's findings. And then the fun really begins.......

Now my final thought on the report just issued by the LAA, they have yet again positioned themselves to deny us without ever having actually seen a skydive made on the airport. That's very impressive.

So, now it's all out there for you the community. What you do with all of this information is up to you. Maybe the Laconia/Gilford area is really it's own universe. Maybe small town alliances really are the status quo. Maybe the community is fated to let the masses bear the grunt of the burden while the privileged few reap it's rewards.

That's up to all of you at this point. You have a Mayor and group of Selectmen that you can turn to and voice your opinion.

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight
Tom
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Old 04-05-2011, 06:26 PM   #238
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Tom,I emailed you the response I got from my email. IT IS TIME FOR THE LAA TO GET THEIR HEADS OUT OF THE SAND AND LOOK AT THE FACTUAL RESULTS OF THE FAA REPORT. Nothing more nothing less,to make these decisions without the final report is like shooting craps with loaded dice we already would know the outcome. Unfortunately the FAA report is needed to make an educated decision. My question since someone on the board is reading this thread is why the rush,is maybe you want to open a skydive operation now that it's been shown to be viable?? All I ask as a resident,taxpayer and voter in this state is our elected and appointed offials play by the same rules that govern the citizens by. Why is that concept lost on the LAA?
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:22 PM   #239
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Hi robmac,

I didn't receive your email at the_noonans@yahoo.com, perhaps you can resend when you have a chance.

To robmac and the others that have sent your emails of support, we sincerely thank you.

For what it is worth, trust me, this isn't over by a long shot. I've been saying for a long time that Mary and I have the resolve to see this through and that hasn't diminished at all. We have patience and ample resources to see this through.

To be clear, the LAA denying us was 100% expected and planned for. That they chose to publish their denial prior to the FAAs report being issued......well, let's just say, we aren't disappointed they chose to do that. It doesn't make any sense to us for them to do that, but we are very very glad they did. I mean really, they could have waited until after the FAA report was issued, which would have atleast been procedurally more sound. But it's published now and it's out there ahead of the FAA report. I guess we should thank them for that in the long run........lol

We remain unemotional in this process, I wonder if that the same case on the otherside?

Anyways, as I said, trust me, this isn't over by a long shot. Skydiving may not be on the airport May 1st as we had hoped, but it will be there sooner or later........

Thank you all again for your support and encouragement. Contact your Mayor and Selectmen, voice your opinions, for us (or against us Bill).

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,

Tom

Edit to add: We are amazed and flattered that this thread has been viewed 850+ times in the last 24 hours. So much for our little "dirt road" business not being of any consequence or concern to the community as a "certain someone" suggested a long time ago....lol
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Old 04-06-2011, 10:54 AM   #240
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Please...Close this thread already!!!
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:10 PM   #241
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Please...Close this thread already!!!
Hell no! This is good stuff.

Tom, might it be helpful to publish your letter to the mayor as a full page ad in the Citizen? That might get somebody's attention other than the forum folks.
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Old 04-06-2011, 02:57 PM   #242
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I really would love to see open canopies as I am on the lake. This would prove the America we live in is free for individuals to seek their challenges and build businesses unencombered by nanny's.

We are a vacation / resort area and it is hard to think of anything more exciting than this business on the lake. If tax dollars support the airport in any way we are being robbed and the Noonans are being wronged.

I have toatlly enjoyed this thread and the insights of all. Thank you.
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Old 04-06-2011, 06:52 PM   #243
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As a local resident of the lake, i understand all of the safety and economical concerns. Across the country and the world skydiving has clearly worked or else it wouldn't be in discussion on here. And as Tom was saying about the not wanting to travel for pick ups etc, we must assume this is the same for MOST *not all* skydiving business' across the world. Therefore meaning *MOST* of these such business' are based out of airports. How often do you hear on the news " Para-shooist killed after being hit by income plane"? not to often as far as i can tell. So why should we assume that it will happen here. hopefully this all gets straightened out and pleases both sides of this discussion. Cant wait to jump if this happens
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Old 04-06-2011, 08:21 PM   #244
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Post This Is One Of The Best Threads This Site Has...

Although frustrating at times, our heart's of heart's are in this for the long run...

It very clearly shows how tough it can be, in dealing with bureaucracy! And especially when most of us have never had to deal with an agency that most of us trusted, only to find out how incompetent they can be!

I very certainly see a big change coming here as a direct result from this very thread! Rock on www.winnipesaukee.com

This has turned into a kind'a, David and Goliath thing out here! And I have no affiliation with the Noonan's, other than I have grown to love them for their true grit, their commitment, factor, and tenacity!

Now, when all is said and done, it is my feeling that Oh yes, they have endured and lost some battles, yet have very positivity represented their forthwith and will win the war, ( so to speak ).

I am waiting for responses from some of the E-mails that I have sent to the " so called, higher ups", on this very issue...

The Noonan's should remember that they are not alone in this venture to bring more to the community here! We are 150% behind you!
Terry
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Old 04-07-2011, 06:52 AM   #245
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A little more "reporting" on the issues the Gilford Selectman are concerned about.

http://www.newhampshirelakesandmount...2011.03.31.pdf

Page 1, continued on page 10.
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:04 AM   #246
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A little more "reporting" on the issues the Gilford Selectman are concerned about.

http://www.newhampshirelakesandmount...2011.03.31.pdf

Page 1, continued on page 10.
Ok I read the article in the Gilford Steamer, and it seems to me the selectmens main concern was a liability issue if there was an accident.I suppose in this sue happy world we live in someone could go after the town, but isn't all the liability with the owners of the skydiving company? And if they did go after the town wouldn't the towns insurance cover it anyway? The town could always tell them have we want you to have a 20 million dollar umbrella policy, but you would have to have a meeting between both sides for that to happen.
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Old 04-07-2011, 02:01 PM   #247
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Post Minutes, From The Meeting 3/23/11...

Gilford Selectmen;


.3 "Laconia Municipal Airport – Skydiving Proposal – Selectman Benavides stated that the Airport Authority has not yet made a decision on this matter. Town Administrator Dunn added that because of potential safety and liability issues, the Board has been asked to express a position on the matter. He further stated that there is a remote possibility of jumpers being thrown off course and landing at the Recycle Center. Selectman Hayes expressed concern with the hazards present at the Recycle Center, but is even more concerned with the financial impact to the airport if their fuel sales decline because of this activity. For this reason, he would like to state that the Board is against the proposal. Chairman O’Brien stated that he would like to wait and see what action is taken by the Airport Authority. Town Administrator Dunn reminded Board members that a skydiving proposal has been brought forth to the Airport Authority in the past and it was denied."

"Selectman Hayes moved to recommend that the Laconia Airport Authority not approve the proposal, due to safety, liability and financial concerns. Selectman Benavides seconded. Motion carried with all in favor."

The above meeting on this issue sure smells of Kangaroos to me.


Terry
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Old 04-07-2011, 02:08 PM   #248
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I read the article in the Gilford Steamer. Nothing new, no surprises.

Although I wonder if Selectman Hayes could be a little clearer with his concern about 'What if a skydiver gets tangled with their parachute?"........In 4000 professional skydives, I have never been "tangled" with my parachute. Don't know anyone else that's happened to either, but it makes for a good sound bite.

I would guess he was trying to say "What happens if a parachute malfunctions?" Valid question. The answer which is equally valid is: We carry two parachutes for that very reason. If I were given an audience with Selectman Hayes, I'd ask "What if a private pilot or worse, a student pilot had a problem with the engine in their single engine aircraft? Does that concern you? If your searching for probabilities and liability issues, you'd be better to start there. Statistics prove that is where the town's liability really is.

My favorite line though was Selectman Hayes stating that the Laconia Airport was "not a very good jump zone." Selectman Hayes is not a skydiver and not an aviator either (that I am aware of), so for someone with no practical knowledge of what constitutes a viable "jump zone", versus one that is "not a very good" one, his position lacks any factual basis. Yes, he received a document from the LAA, their formal denial, but it was a document created by a group of people that aren't skydivers either, and most if not all of them are not even aviators themselves. So you are left with a group of people (the LAA) that aren't skydivers or aviators, that searched pretty much the entire internet to look for any negative items they could find, pasted them all together out of context, and presented it as lopsided fact.

Now had they hired experts in both skydiving and aviation to do their research for them, they would have found at least three indisputable facts:

Fact: 95+% of all dropzones are on airports across the country and around the world land their parachutes ON the airport. It's commonplace, it's normal.
Fact: The FAA, AOPA and every other entity that oversees skydiving clearly states landing on the airport is the safest option.
Fact: Based on it's size and air traffic, the Laconia Municipal Airport is an ideal location for a skydiving operation.

So.....where do I base my facts?

As I mentioned before, I am an industry expert. My validation of that statement?

I work full time in the parachute industry, with my primary role in our industry is that of a tandem safety expert. Really. Those tandem instructors that take passengers? They are trained by the top 1% of tandem instructors out there, they are called Tandem Examiners. Tandem Examiners (the trainers) are hand picked by the manufacturers of the tandem equipment based on years of experience, # of skydives, and professional attitudes. SO, who trains that top 1%, the Tandem Examiners that train the tandem instructors? Me. I train the people that train the tandem instructors. A teachers teacher if you will........

When I am not doing that, I am traveling around the country and the world to provide safety audits at other tandem skydiving operations. I give safety seminars on all aspects of tandem parachute operations. This past February I was asked to give a presentation at the Parachute Industry Association biannual Symposium by the United States Parachute Association, or USPA. The audience? 200+ dropzone operators from around the world. The topic? Tandem Parachute Safety Protocols.

That's who I am. That's what I do. That is the position from which I speak from. I'm also the Chief Tandem Instructor for Everest Skydive, the world's most challenging civilian tandem HALO operation ever conceived. The tandem team for the trip? I am in charge.

So.........if or when the Gilford Selectmen ever elect to hear the facts from an industry expert, that is the position from which I will be providing them.

While I have numerous right seat hours flying in aircraft, my wife Mary, she is the aviator in this pair. A graduate of Daniel Webster College in NH, with multiple degrees in Aviation Management and a private pilot working towards her commercial rating. And she has supervised the ground operations for dropzones on and off for the better part of the last ten years, including Everest Skydive. She has a better understanding of the FARs and SOPs of municipal airport operations as they pertains to skydiving than the entire LAA lumped together.

Last thought: The GS article quoted the town administrator as stating that the FAA has been "persistent" in it's evaluation processes.

Believe me, they haven't seen anything yet......the actions of the LAA and the bureaucracies that exist within the current FAA statutes that have allowed the LAA to operate with impunity and any lack of oversight have effectively opened Pandora's Box with the FAA.

The FAA (at a Federal level) doesn't like to be told they don't know their job and moreover they don't like it when airport authorities ignore the requirements of their positions.

Three things I can assure you of:
1) The persistence of the FAA will only get stronger as time goes on in Laconia
and
2) When this is concluded, there will either be skydiving on the airport at Laconia, or the airport will have it's federal funding forfeited and have to pay back the last ten years of funding they received.
and
3) The LAA has effectively ensured that when this is over, no other airport authority will be able to do other aeronautical business operators, what they have done to us.

It's a win/win/win situation in the end. I hope the LAA is prepared to see this through, because we aren't going anywhere.

Meanwhile, you the citizens of Laconia/Gilford continue to be robbed of a positive economic opportunity. They say their fearful we will run off GA flights? Drive down to Newport, RI and see the volume of traffic that lands there in the summer (don't fly your Cessna down there though, because they have parachutes and if you were trained to fly at Laconia your not capable of landing there with parachutes, they will distract you......lol). When you finally get there by car, you'll see an active airport with GA and parachutes peacefully coexisting together. It's the economy that drives away GA traffic, not skydiving. Skydiving actually helps communities keep money coming in during tight financial times.

Stay tuned.......

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,
Tom

P.S. - I wonder how many billable hours the LAA have paid out to fight us in generating that report and every legal document they send us from their attorney? They aren't worried about the bills though, their bill payments come from YOUR federal funding. Your tax dollars hard at work. Money you put into the system that is supposed to be allocated to make the airport available to new business, is being used to block new business from coming there. Ironic, don't you think?

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Old 04-08-2011, 10:59 AM   #249
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Default Only qualification missing

You aren't a Laconia/Gilford Selectman or on the LAA

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Old 04-08-2011, 11:52 AM   #250
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You aren't a Laconia/Guilford Selectman or on the LAA
Learn how to spell the damn town before you post...it is GILFORD!!
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Old 04-08-2011, 01:30 PM   #251
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Quote:
You aren't a Laconia/Guilford Selectman or on the LAA
Your right, and given the current political climate in the area, I doubt I would be welcome on either board.

If I was a Selectman in a community that has a substantial reliance on tourism dollars, I would judge every tourist based opportunity that could benefit the community fairly and impartially. Based on what I have read and what I have heard about the current status quo, I don't think I would be very popular on the board if I did that.

If I was on the LAA, I would definitely not be very popular as I don't cater to special interests groups and back room political wheeling and dealing. Even if I didn't personally want skydiving on the airfield, I would weigh all the facts before ever casting judgement, and if the facts supported the business proposal as a benefit to the community as a whole, I would vote for it, even if it wasn't what the special interest group wanted.

Here's the funny part: had the LAA done what it was tasked to do in 2008, we would have been operating on the airfield by May of 2009. It's now two years later, post May 2009. Had they done their job when they were supposed to, this issue (and this thread most likely) would have run it's course. We'd have been proven right and there would be a thriving new adventure sport on the airport. Or (playing devil's advocate), we'd have been proven wrong, and our little "dirt road" business would have folded and we'd have been on our way. And the airport would be carrying on today as though nothing ever happened.

But that didn't happen......

So today, two years later, this issue has become a federal interest item and is about to become a national news item. And the LAA is going to be placed front and center in that.

We never wanted it to become a national campaign, but that's where we were forced to bring it when the LAA threw policy and statute out the window before we ever even set foot on the airport.

Maybe they thought we'd just go away? If that's the case.........they thought wrong.

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,
Tom

Edit to add: People "in the know" up there have repeatedly told us that the REAL reason the LAA and the two FBOs don't want us there is because they know we will work up there and THRIVE there. That we will become such a large part of the daily ops on the airfield that we will in a sense take it over. (For the record, that was never our intent or desire. We intended a happy medium of flight ops integrated into the daily flow. And we HAD planned to send our happy customers to the two FBOs for flight training, figuring the more business we directed their way, the better it was for everyone involved.)

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Old 04-08-2011, 10:20 PM   #252
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Post Dunn Is Done!...

Quote:
Originally Posted by trfour View Post
Gilford Selectmen

The above meeting on this issue sure smells of Kangaroos to me.


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I would like to add, that, ( and not to be lost ), our ELECTED officials are very close to shutting down our entire Government, and this isn't about the Broads section of Lake Winnipesaukee. And, directly through their very own incompetence to serve the People that trusted and voted to put them in office, in the first place! This equates to a very sad day for everyone...

" Town Administrator Dunn added that because of potential safety and liability issues, the Board has been asked to express a position on the matter. He further stated that there is a remote possibility of jumpers being thrown off course and landing at the Recycle Center. Selectman Hayes expressed concern with the hazards present at the Recycle Center"...
Not to worry Mr Dunn, or Hayes, and 'doo not concern yourself any further, as we will not recycle you.

I recall an resounding verse about just where we all came from.
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union,
establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common
defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to
ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the
United States of America.

T
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Old 04-09-2011, 05:44 AM   #253
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Quote:
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Maybe they thought we'd just go away? If that's the case.........they thought wrong.
"Dizzy Dean and his brother Paul (Daffy) were the pitching backbone of
one of the most famous teams in history - the 1934 'Gas House gang'
St. Louis Cardinals. Before the season Dizzy said 'It ain't bragging
if you can back it up... Me and Paul'll win 45 games this year.' Dizzy
won 30 and Paul 19 on their way to a World's Championship."

I don't know if people name their planes , like boat owners do... but maybe "Dizzy Dean" would be a good name!
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Old 04-09-2011, 05:57 AM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NHBoat70 View Post
Learn how to spell the damn town before you post...it is GILFORD!!
The only reason it's not named Guilford was a spelling error at the clerks office in Concord.

Gilford History

First settled in 1777 as a part of Gilmanton, the town was originally known as Gunstock Parish. Captain Lemuel B. Mason proposed that the name of the town be Guilford in memory of the 1781 Battle of Guilford Court House. The town was incorporated by its current name in 1812, due to a clerical error in the spelling of Guilford.


Sorry... I'm a history geek.
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Old 04-09-2011, 07:38 PM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NHBoat70 View Post
Learn how to spell the damn town before you post...it is GILFORD!!
I am from CT and live right next to Guilford and it is just a habit to spell it that way.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:33 AM   #256
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:45 AM   #257
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Holy erasure batman, I just looked below and Pickwick's post is gone. I'll erase my response post then too. Good choice Pickwick.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:58 AM   #258
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I'm sorry Pickwick deleted the post. At least I'm not the only one who feels that way.
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Old 04-12-2011, 10:46 AM   #259
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http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...848/-1/CITIZEN

The Selectmen are apparently going to decide whether or not to hear the facts of our proposal.

If you want them to hear the facts, or even if you don't want them to hear the facts, I would encourage you to email your Selectmen and let them know your opinion.

Also, if you feel compelled, offer your opinion on whether or not you think anyone is in a position to cast judgement on us without actually seeing a skydive onto the airport. If you think they need to see a skydive to be truly informed, let them know. If you believe that showing the Selectmen and the community the truth about the non intrusive nature of our proposal on the airport is a bad thing, and don't want the community to see how well suited we are to operate at the airport, then encourage your Selectmen to veto a demonstration jump.

Either way, let your opinions be heard.

citycouncil@city.state.nh.us

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,

Tom
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Old 04-13-2011, 08:40 PM   #260
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Well, I just received a call and was informed that the Gilford Selectmen denied our request to provide them factual information on our proposal. They are content to let their position stand.

No Skydive Laconia meeting with the Gilford Selectmen.

No Skydive Laconia "town hall" style platform to address the community.

Maybe they were fearful of giving us a community platform?

Why would that be?

If you separate Skydive Laconia from this for a moment and look at what really just happened, it's down right scary for a democracy. Elected officials were given the opportunity to educate themselves on something that could positively affect the entire community and they decided not to pursue that. And it was free, we were going to fly up on our own dime. If they are willing to do that to us, what else are they willing to do that too in the community?

Long after this issue ends, as a community you will be left to wonder what else is being handled that way.

We weren't looking to gain their approval in our request, we were just looking to educate them.

So as this evening comes to a close, now the LAA and the Gilford Selectmen have been given the opportunity to learn the facts of the issue and now they have both turned down the chance to do so.

As for us, the 15th is "FAA Day", the ADO will issue another report on our alternate landing areas. If it's the same people issuing the report without oversight, we expect the same result as before, if appropriate oversight is provided to the ADO, we expect a fresh perspective and a positive result.

Either way, we will be happy to have the report issued, as it will tell us if our next flight is the Laconia Airport or to Washington D.C.

Stay tuned.

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,
Tom

P.S.- Thankfully the internet has a memory. When election time rolls around those of you that constitute the 3000 views this thread had in the last week, can cast your vote for or against this type of democracy. If you support this type of leadership, re-elect them. If you disapprove this type of leadership, recycle this thread during the election campaigns and remind the public how your current administration handled this issue.
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Old 04-13-2011, 08:54 PM   #261
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One last thought for the night.

A "Town Hall" style open forum isn't just the realm of the Gilford Selectmen. If you, the business owners of the community would like to learn more about our proposal and how we can bring positive economic stimulus to your businesses, we are happy to travel to Gilford and hold an open forum. If you are an Inn keeper or a restaurant owner and would like to provide us a venue to share the facts with the community, we are happy address any and all questions.

We'll even invite the Gilford Selectmen and the LAA. (We doubt they would attend though.)

It's YOUR community. You have an opportunity to be heard.

If anyone is interested in offering us a venue, please feel free to email us at the_noonans@yahoo.com. We'll put it in the papers and give the community a chance to voice it's opinions. You all have a voice and you deserve to heard.

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,
Tom
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Old 04-14-2011, 01:04 AM   #262
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They are so very hard and pressed these days! However, they may one day look back at some of their very shortcomings and reflect on that they could have served their communities better.

My sincere hope is that they will get a grasp and in tuned with the bears what have come out of hibernation ( all, and by and further ahead of themselves ).

Now, local government has another fight on THEIR very own and inept hands. Their very own version and vision leaves so much to be LOST!

It is HIGH Time for ( we, the People ) to get more involved about putting them where they seem to want to be, ( And That Is At Rest )! Please remember these Short Sighted elected folks and do away with them on the next, and in the ballet box!
Respectfully,
Terry

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Old 04-14-2011, 07:28 AM   #263
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Tom,
Your persistence and tenacity prove that you can, indeed, fight city hall. As a non current commercial/instrument rated pilot, and former air traffic controller (class if '81), I have nothing but admiration for how you are handling yourself in this quest. Most would have given up long ago...as I'm sure the town fathers in Gilford wish you had.
Good luck in your continued fight for what is right. I can't vote in Gilford, but I wish I could.
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Old 04-16-2011, 09:27 AM   #264
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Default Get Real Already

First I should state that I am in awe of Mr. Noonan's posts. I have never seen someone so skilled at innuendo, smoke and mirrors.

As repeatedly stated by Mr. Noonan, ("Teacher of Teachers"), this entire issue is NOT up to the LAA, the local operators, the Gilford selectmen, the town of Laconia, local residents, Winni forum posters, or the U.S. Parachute Association. It is solely up to the FAA. Why he spends so much time with not-so-veiled threats and political hornet-stirring, trying to get community support that he says he already has is beyond me.

My guess is that the Gilford selectmen recently decided- rightfully so- that there was no point in wasting everyone's time listening to the Noonans pontificate until and unless the FAA approves their second request. A wise decision. Why waste your time on something that may not happen?

Prior to making it's second ruling, the FAA opened this issue to public comment. I and many others provided input- most of it was negative. As abutters with a vested interest, the Gilford selectmen were asked to provide their input. They did not need the secret business plan to do so. No conspiracy here, either.

There are no sinister back door politics at work here. Everyone involved is just following the procedure outlined by the FAA. Get over it.

For the record, I have never said that skydiving was not safe- if fact, if you read all of my posts you will find just the opposite. My posting the examples of the Golden Knight drifting onto a flagpole and the other recent skydiving accident intended to demonsttrate that was that while it is rare, it can happen. In fact, it has just happened again: 1 Dead in skydiving collision. The point is that one can never say never. No one can tell me that one (or more) of Skydive Laconias customers won't end up in the middle of the active runway that they meant to land next to. But that's only one of a whole laundry list of dangers that this ridiculous proposal would incur.

Finally, I would encourage all to take some of the things you read here with a grain of salt.

Noonan, Jan 2009: "the Portland FSDO finished their assessment and found no reason that skydiving could not occur at the airport."

Fact: the FAA report stated "this proposed landing area would adversely affect the safe and efficient use of the navigable airspace by aircraft and the safety of persons and property on the ground."

Quote:
Originally Posted by trfour View Post
Everyone knows that Laconia Airport is FAA funded...
Fact: The only funds provided to the Laconia Airport from the federal government are those used for capital improvements, such as taxiways. Other than that it is self-funding. None of your tax dollars go to any of the businesses on the airport.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNoonans View Post
their (the LAA) bill payments come from YOUR federal funding. Your tax dollars hard at work.
See Facts above.
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Old 04-16-2011, 07:18 PM   #265
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Sorry. I personally disagree with just about everything you state. One thing regarding the federal tax dollars and what you state is the ONLY thing they cover and that is the runways and capital upgrades. I'm willing to bet that is close to or if it isn't the largest part of the LLA budget. You have your so called business, let others try to build on theirs. If a problem HAPPENS then let the proper people take the corrective action.
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Old 04-16-2011, 10:19 PM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLW View Post
Sorry. I personally disagree with just about everything you state. One thing regarding the federal tax dollars and what you state is the ONLY thing they cover and that is the runways and capital upgrades. I'm willing to bet that is close to or if it isn't the largest part of the LLA budget. You have your so called business, let others try to build on theirs. If a problem HAPPENS then let the proper people take the corrective action.
Just how supportive that local folks are, and can be! Shortsightedness has no place to go when businessmen in any given community, decide to go against progress, as the rest of us know it! We have all been very enlightened by this very thread, about how difficult, and a struggle can be! Yes, red tape Abounds in most walks of life! We however have been let to a very clear choice as and this will help move us on, and bring a more positive ring to one of the very most very wonderful places on Earth, and again may I add that, The Noonan's will bring all or us closer to Heaven, than any of us ever thought possible! And as the Lakes Region 'Doos, every day!

Now, and again, just get there, it'll make you warm and more comfortable!

Terry
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Old 04-16-2011, 10:47 PM   #267
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Sorry Bill,

You can't have it both ways. You can't state over and over again that the LAA and the town have the right to decide what is suitable for the airport and then turn around and now say it's up to the FAA.......

Fact: The LAA can say yes or no to any business owners proposing an aeronautical activity on the airport.

Fact: If they say no to something the FAA finds no objections to, the FAA will order them to allow the aeronautical business or forfeit future federal funding and refund the last ten years of funding they received.

Fact: The local FAA report you keep referencing, that "objectionable one" was so completely erroneous, it's spurred internal FAA action at a federal level.

Regarding the Selectmen. We never intended to change their minds, just educate them. If I elected anyone that viewed learning more about a current issue within my community as a "waste of time", I wouldn't re-elect them.

Fact: The "public comments" the local FAA requested will have absolutely no bearing on the ruling. Why it was even asked for again raised eyebrows at a Federal level at the FAA. Surprisingly enough we can agree on that one. The comments made to the FAA carry zero weight in the decision process.

Just following procedures, huh? In lieu of going straight to the FAA as obligated to do, the LAA created an internal "Safety Committee" and then refused to provide us the aeronautical safety experience and background of the committee, going so far as to tell us they are "not legally obligated to do so."

Your right again Bill, no one, not even me the "Teacher of teachers", will tell you that a customer of Skydive Laconia will never land on the active runway. What I can tell you is that of all the tandem passengers I have personally taken on tandem skydives in the last ten years, including the current President of Ecuador, that I personally have never landed on an active runway. Nor has any of the hundred of tandem instructors I have trained over the years, or any other tandem instructor that I have ever heard of. Can it happen? Sure. Will it happen, not likely. And while I won't tell you where it is.....you can look it up yourself......FAA guidance actually clearly states that parachutists have a right to use the active runway as an alternate landing area. And before you start fear mongering landing on asphalt, its not unheard of in demonstration jumps for big events to purposely land on asphalt, like in parking lots. Modern parachutes can actually land that soft.

The FSDO and some people at the local ADO have made the point that skydiving isn't safe. The supporting facts they brought to the table were based on data from incidents and events from about 20 years ago. No argument there. Twenty years ago, skydiving really was dangerous.

For the record, I don't blame the FSDO, skydiving is such a small part of their considerably complex job, and they really don't know much about it, especially modern skydiving operations on municipal airports. Current data and information have been provided to that office now.

I'm not going to comment on your federal funding statement, already covered by someone else.

And lastly, regarding smoke and mirrors..........let me define the term "ironic" as it applies here:

"Being accused of smoke and mirrors by someone who photoshop'd a tandem skydiving pair in front of a jet and placed it on the internet. A tandem has never collided with a jet, ever. But hey, it really helps diverting the attention from the facts, right? "

Honestly though Bill, we should probably thank you. You personally afforded us this wonderful medium to share our story with the community, and the community can see the facts. And you continue to engage us in this debate which allows us to continue to provide the community with factual information. What more could we ask for? Thank you.

(You STILL haven't answered my questions though.....what economic stimulus does your business bring to the area and how many full time jobs does it fill with local residents?)

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,
Tom
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Old 04-16-2011, 11:04 PM   #268
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My opinion is, as long as my taxes are part of the contribution to the federal piece of the Laconia airport funding, no matter what it is used for, I want a say through the federal voice. I get no local voice as I am only a non-voting, five-figure, local tax payer.

My personal opinion is the voice we hear from locals with an interest in their business operations at the Laconia airport is self-serving and very petty. Shame on all of you!

Let the Noonan's proposal have its day in an open meeting, and stop this behind closed doors approach to democracy. It is simply not right!

Bill, you have just lost a good customer!!!

R2B

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Old 04-17-2011, 07:46 AM   #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyguy View Post
For the record, I have never said that skydiving was not safe- if fact, if you read all of my posts you will find just the opposite. My posting the examples of the Golden Knight drifting onto a flagpole and the other recent skydiving accident intended to demonsttrate that was that while it is rare, it can happen. In fact, it has just happened again: 1 Dead in skydiving collision. The point is that one can never say never. No one can tell me that one (or more) of Skydive Laconias customers won't end up in the middle of the active runway that they meant to land next to. But that's only one of a whole laundry list of dangers that this ridiculous proposal would incur.
Did you know that planes occasionally crash while taking off and landing? In another era, would the notion of building the airport have been shot down because a wayward plane might wind up in the recycle center?

I have news for you - it's not your runway and it's not your airport. Did your mother never teach you to share?
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Old 04-17-2011, 10:59 AM   #270
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Old 04-17-2011, 03:45 PM   #271
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It just dawned on me. Is Flyguy the only pilot that uses LLA? I do not recall seeing any other pilots coming forward to back up what Flyguy is saying. I could be wrong in that statement, but I bet there is far less against it in writing than there is for the project that is being requested for.

and the best to the Noonans
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Old 04-17-2011, 04:53 PM   #272
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Hi Bill,
Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you.
I think that most of us already know that there is no such thing, ( as a totally FAA Funded Public Airport here in Gilford NH).
Thank you.

Quote:
"Originally Posted by trfour
Everyone knows that Laconia Airport is FAA funded...
Fact: The only funds provided to the Laconia Airport from the federal government are those used for capital improvements, such as taxiways. Other than that it is self-funding. None of your tax dollars go to any of the businesses on the airport."




How Much of the Project Cost Does the Grant Cover?
For large and medium primary hub airports, the grant covers 75 percent of eligible costs (or 80 percent for noise program implementation). For small primary, reliever, and general aviation airports, the grant covers 95 percent of eligible costs.
Some more facts; http://www.faa.gov/airports/aip/overview/

Terry
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Old 04-18-2011, 09:05 AM   #273
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Default For the record

1. I have not, and never have, objected to a skydiving business at LCA. My only objection is the proposed drop zones. I suspect that most of those posting do not know actually where those are.

2. My business is NOT based at the airport. In fact I fly out of 3 different airports using both aircraft and helicopters.

3. My business is not an issue here, and personal attacks on me have no influence on my opinions. Attacking me only emphasizes your lack of ability to form a cohesive argument.

4. My overall business will be unaffected no matter which way this ends up. I have no vested interest other than overall aviation safety.

5. If you think that federal funds pay anyones salary at LCA, you really need to do some independent fact checking.

6. I do not believe that skydiving is dangerous, and have stated this over and over. Tom is right- it was once very dangerous. Particularly back in the '60's. When I did it. Since then I nave seen amazing progress in the technology and capabilities. (And yes, I have been right next to someone gently landing on a concrete ramp.)

Everything has it's place. The middle of the airport is simply not the right one for Skydive Laconia.
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:04 AM   #274
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Response to your record:
Quote:
My only objection is the proposed drop zones.
The FAA and AOPA disagree with your objection and have gone so far as to publish their support of landing on airports as a suitable and appropriate way to integrate skydiving into an airport.

Quote:
I suspect that most of those posting do not know actually where those are.
I would say they know exactly where our intended landing areas are. YOU posted them on this very thread.

Quote:
I have no vested interest other than overall aviation safety.
Despite your extensive history as an aviator, you are not an aviation safety expert. You are certainly entitled to share your opinion, but it is not one of a safety expert.

Quote:
Since then I nave seen amazing progress in the technology and capabilities.
You really haven't. If you had, you wouldn't be arguing your position. We could have shown you the amazing progress in technology personally, but the LAA keeps saying no to demonstration jumps.......wonder why?

Quote:
I have been right next to someone gently landing on a concrete ramp.
Was that person a licensed and trained Instructor, like those of us that will be conducting the operation? I would bet you that they were not. Comparing Apples to Oranges again Bill........

I've googled "Student Pilot crashes" on the internet.......dozens of pages of incidents. No parachutes involved..... Should we ban student training at LCI. By your resolve, we should.

Quote:
Everything has it's place. The middle of the airport is simply not the right one for Skydive Laconia
Did you even bother to actually read anything we submitted that you keep commenting on? If you think our intended primary landing area is the spot of grassy area immediately adjacent to the active runway, you are entirely incorrect Bill. We intend to land our parachutes on the grass closest to the hangars, between the hangar apron and the taxiway. Would we use the "hangar side" of that very large piece of grass between the runway and the taxiway periodically? Sure. But we'd be landing on the edge of it closest to the hangar, not the edge closest to the runway. It's how it's done all across the country at airports of similar size and traffic volume as Laconia.

Oh wait, I forgot according to you, we drift, we don't control our descents........yet you have seen the advances in technology personally........right.

But you know best of course, your protecting those that can't protect themselves......and continue, by leaps and bounds, to be the most vocal opposition to this proposal. A proposal that you now even state won't even affect you............although before up in this thread you wrote that you would be "inconvenienced" by us, having to wait for our parachutes to land. Your flip flopping AGAIN Bill........ Which is it, will we affect your business or not?

And "for the record" you continue to still ignore my questions: What economic stimulus and jobs does your aeronautical business bring to the area?

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,
Tom
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:54 AM   #275
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Default I thought this was important to the discussion.

How to Find the Perfect Weather for Skydiving.

http://weather.about.com/od/meteorol...iveweather.htm
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Old 04-19-2011, 08:31 AM   #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyguy View Post
My only objection is the proposed drop zones. I suspect that most of those posting do not know actually where those are.
What an insult.You posted a nice photo with an overlay in this very thread.I guess we are all too dumb to have seen that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyguy View Post
3. My business is not an issue here, and personal attacks on me have no influence on my opinions. Attacking me only emphasizes your lack of ability to form a cohesive argument.
You have become your own worst enemy.In the same post you attack and critisize others in this thread twice as shown above and have the nerve to suggest that others attacking have a lack of ability to form a cohesive argument?
I have sat by pretty quietly following this thread for the most part to see how the process plays out.You sir,have single handedly pushed me firmly in the Noonans camp with your rhetoric.
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Old 04-19-2011, 10:17 AM   #277
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Quote:
Prior to making it's second ruling, the FAA opened this issue to public comment. I and many others provided input- most of it was negative.
I had wanted to address this quote from Bill when I had time to do so.

When Mary and I found out about the "Public Comment" period, we already knew that the comments would not be considered in the report by the FAA, so we didn't pursue it.

I suspect Bill's comment is entirely correct, that the majority of the public comment was negative.......from a percentage stand point only though. If the ADO only got 9 comments and 7 were negative, then "most of it would be negative", while the overall input would still be quite small.

I point this out, only to say that if Mary and I really wanted to sway the comments so to speak, we could have mounted a campaign and brought the ADO hundreds of local and thousands of national comments from pilots and skydivers. We chose not to. There are a few reasons for that, the primary one is stated above. Based on our knowledge of the process, there was no reason to pursue the comment period, as the comments would not be considered in the process.

So......when taking Bill's comment into consideration, that most of the comments were negative it's important to consider the audience that it was received from:

2 FBO owners (and those in their inner circle)
1 Aerial Photographer (and his friends).

(edit to add: it's important to note that of this group, they all have a current business interest in the airport. Even Bill, despite his (now) statements to the contrary).

That group I would surmise is the vast vast majority of whatever negative comments were received by the ADO.

And of course lets not forget the LAA.......lol, I think their 40 page response could be classified as um, what's the word, I'm looking for?

Oh right, it's negative.......lol

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,

Tom

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Old 04-19-2011, 01:54 PM   #278
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How to Find the Perfect Weather for Skydiving.

http://weather.about.com/od/meteorol...iveweather.htm
Thats why the sport requires training.
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Old 04-20-2011, 07:24 AM   #279
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Default Skydive Laconia

Today's update:

I had recently sent an email to the Mayor of Laconia, also the chair of the airport authority and asked two questions:

1) As the leader of another community that could potentially be affected by the Gilford Selectmen's decision not to allow us to educate them, do you feel their actions were appropriate?

I just wanted his opinion as the Mayor. I wanted to know where he stood on that course of action.

I got back a standard: It's their town, their issue, type answer. The answer was entirely expected, I just went out on a limb to see if maybe the Mayor might actually voice his personal opinion on how the GS chose to handle the situation.

And the primary reason for my email:

2) I asked him, as Chair of the LAA, how many members of the LAA actually fly airplanes? I asked how many members of the board are current private or commercial pilots. A fair question I thought. This group that is tasked with deciding the fate of an aeronautical business proposal, how many of them even know how to fly?

Simple question I thought.

I was surprised to get a response reminding me that the LAA sent me a letter in 2008 informing me they were not legally obligated to provide me any information. Back then I asked the LAA to provide me the aeronautical safety assessment/training backgrounds of their "Safety Committee", the stall tactic group that the LAA created amongsts its members that was going to be responsible for making a recommendation to the LAA as a whole, in lieu of going to the FAA at that time as required.

Back then we wagered a bet that no one on the LAA, let alone their "Safety Committee" had any background or training in aeronautical safety inspection analysis. So, we asked them to validate their experience to do the job they gave themselves to do (instead of going to the FAA). And they told us they didn't legally have to tell us that........

Why wouldn't you want to share that information? Is that the "transparent" process the airport manager is quoted in the paper as saying the LAA has been affording us?

Anyways, back on track (sorry for the tangent.....), all I asked the Chair of the LAA to provide me this time was to tell me whether or not the members of the LAA are aviators? Current private or commercial pilots?

The response I got was a reminder of the letter I got in 2008.......and an offer to resend me the letter........odd huh?

So, I replied again saying I wasn't asking for the aeronautical safety backgrounds of the LAA (there are none) I just wanted to know if they can fly an airplane.

What do you think? Is that information your airport authority should be willing to share with the community they serve, or should they be allowed to hide behind their appointed positions and keep us and you in the dark about their background and abilities (or lack there of) to perform the tasks they are appointed to do?

You can email the LAA and ask yourself at:
laa@metrocast.net
or the Mayor directly (also the Chair of the LAA) at:
citycouncil@city.state.nh.us

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,
Tom
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Old 04-20-2011, 07:27 AM   #280
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Default Did the FAA issue the new report?

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As for us, the 15th is "FAA Day", the ADO will issue another report on our alternate landing areas.
I thought the new report was due April 15th--any word yet?
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Old 04-20-2011, 07:39 AM   #281
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Default Skydive Laconia

Hi Steveo,

Yes, the 15th was the day the report was scheduled to be done by the ADO. I emailed them directly on the 19th and asked for a copy to be sent to us directly this time.

In theory, it's supposed to go from the ADO to the LAA and then the LAA forwards it to us. Last time the "LAA to us" part was delayed over a month for some reason? We got the report about 5 weeks after it was forwarded to the LAA.

Hey, maybe the LAA is not "legally obligated" to forward things in a timely manner.....lol, I dunno.

Anyways, we asked the ADO to send us a copy directly this time so that we are not left to wait on the LAA again.

As soon as we have it, I wll post the results.

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,
Tom
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Old 04-20-2011, 10:24 AM   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNoonans View Post
Today's update:

I had recently sent an email to the Mayor of Laconia, also the chair of the airport authority and asked two questions:

1) As the leader of another community that could potentially be affected by the Gilford Selectmen's decision not to allow us to educate them, do you feel their actions were appropriate?

I just wanted his opinion as the Mayor. I wanted to know where he stood on that course of action.

I got back a standard: It's their town, their issue, type answer. The answer was entirely expected, I just went out on a limb to see if maybe the Mayor might actually voice his personal opinion on how the GS chose to handle the situation.

And the primary reason for my email:

2) I asked him, as Chair of the LAA, how many members of the LAA actually fly airplanes? I asked how many members of the board are current private or commercial pilots. A fair question I thought. This group that is tasked with deciding the fate of an aeronautical business proposal, how many of them even know how to fly?

Simple question I thought.

I was surprised to get a response reminding me that the LAA sent me a letter in 2008 informing me they were not legally obligated to provide me any information. Back then I asked the LAA to provide me the aeronautical safety assessment/training backgrounds of their "Safety Committee", the stall tactic group that the LAA created amongsts its members that was going to be responsible for making a recommendation to the LAA as a whole, in lieu of going to the FAA at that time as required.

Back then we wagered a bet that no one on the LAA, let alone their "Safety Committee" had any background or training in aeronautical safety inspection analysis. So, we asked them to validate their experience to do the job they gave themselves to do (instead of going to the FAA). And they told us they didn't legally have to tell us that........

Why wouldn't you want to share that information? Is that the "transparent" process the airport manager is quoted in the paper as saying the LAA has been affording us?

Anyways, back on track (sorry for the tangent.....), all I asked the Chair of the LAA to provide me this time was to tell me whether or not the members of the LAA are aviators? Current private or commercial pilots?

The response I got was a reminder of the letter I got in 2008.......and an offer to resend me the letter........odd huh?

So, I replied again saying I wasn't asking for the aeronautical safety backgrounds of the LAA (there are none) I just wanted to know if they can fly an airplane.

What do you think? Is that information your airport authority should be willing to share with the community they serve, or should they be allowed to hide behind their appointed positions and keep us and you in the dark about their background and abilities (or lack there of) to perform the tasks they are appointed to do?

You can email the LAA and ask yourself at:
laa@metrocast.net
or the Mayor directly (also the Chair of the LAA) at:
citycouncil@city.state.nh.us

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,
Tom
Noonan's (Tom) something has to come out of this on the good side. I'm all for new growth regarding business and by the sounds of you plans and all the leg work that you have done shows that you are a very serious person in your endeavor.
There will be a couple letters going out from this individual in your behalf.
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Old 04-20-2011, 12:45 PM   #283
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Default Skydive Laconia

The ADO responded today stating that the report is in it's final stages of compilation.

They stated they will not provide us a copy directly, that we must work with the filer (Laconia Airport Manager) to receive a copy of the report.

So......... I am going out on a limb here, but I would assume if the report is like the last erroneous one and it suits the LAA's liking, we will probably get it with lightening speed. Same day deliver perhaps?

If on the other hand, the report is fair and unbiased, and contrary to all those "safety concerns" of the non-aviators on the board, then we probably won't get a copy of it until Thanksgiving........

After all, the board isn't "legally obligated" to do very much it appears, and what they are legally obligated to do doesn't include conducting business (as it pertains to Skydive Laconia anyways) in a timely manner.

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,

Tom
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Old 04-20-2011, 11:03 PM   #284
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Default Amazing To me, How The Support Of Our Local, And So Called...

And counted upon to get behind the very communities here, and to also continue in a very supportive way of decent humanity.

As everyone can see how we try to give on this very important issue, my guess is that you all know where we come from.

A reminder to you all that some have been so absent in local support.
And they all continue to refrain to advance. No names will be divulged here on an very important topic such as, dude, rg, js, to mention a few and others that have refused an interest' and are more than happy to sit upon their nothings what and as we can guess, ( is very and so close to them ). As some have chosen to show their true colors out here, the rest of us must move on without them as we will adjust to and learn all about their drag.

Now, and in respect to the Noonan's, my drift has always been on course, ( hand in hand ) with. And feel free to 'doo the research if you will.

An added e-mail to those that think that they, you can read more about it in an e-mail to,
Diane Cooper,
Airport Manager ???
Laconia Airport Authority
65 Aviation Drive
Gilford NH 03249
603-524-5003



PS; Why is it that some So, if we’re all going to do the Time Warp and go back to near prehistoric times, ( key word being, Socio Scientific ), where is it that some of our elected or appointed officials get any notion that it’s only fitting that they toss some fear, uncertainly, and doubt (FUD) into the process?
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Last edited by trfour; 04-25-2011 at 07:53 PM. Reason: Above And Beyond... Add Your Own :D WOW, and here I thought because I have an Hotmail account. Dear Tom, they are ignoring me too! :)
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Old 04-21-2011, 04:21 PM   #285
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Default Gilford Steamer 4-21-11

This is a link to todays Gilford Steamer. Not much new in the story, but it does contain some quotes from the Gilford Selectman.

http://www.newhampshirelakesandmount...2011.04.21.pdf

Mildly amusing is the Caption on the picture that appears directly above the story...

"Fiddling around" couldn't have said it any better myself.
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Old 04-21-2011, 05:12 PM   #286
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I think the Noonans professional approach and having done their homework reguarding the business plan should and will be looked at and approved eventually because of statutes in place with reguard to tax dollars being spent. For the board to state that the airport is run self funded I would request to see the last three years budget and P&L. If Federal funds were used then the entire process to this point has been nothing more than an effort by the board to prevent due process to the Noonans and to lie to the taxpayers. I too beleive this should be a transparent and fair process,if I wanted to open a sandwich shop would I have been made to jump through this many hoop? NEVER With that I ask the board WHAT IS YOUR TRUE AGENDA? I know you watch this thread so your response would be greatly appreciated. Robert McCarthy concerned citizen and taxpayer
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Old 04-22-2011, 11:03 AM   #287
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Default Insurance carriers will not cover planes?

Per the Gilford Steamer article these airplanes owners can never fly to an airport that has skydiving activities....what if they fly near an airport that has skydiving activities does that void their insurance?


The worse part is that they made the decision without even listening to both sides of the situation. At least if they gave them an opportunity to present they could say we listened and this is the decision we arrived at having all of the information.
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Old 04-22-2011, 12:45 PM   #288
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From the Gillford Steamer: The key word is in bold.

"Right now, the airport is self funded. Some planes' insurance carriers may not allow them to fly or land at Laconia Airport in this case," said Hayes.

Were it to be true..and it might just be a Red Herring, it might be inconvenient to have to find another carrier to meet changing local conditions. NB
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Old 04-22-2011, 04:07 PM   #289
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There was actually a story about this on the news on WASR this morning. They basically just said that Gilford Selectmen and LAA are against it.
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Old 04-22-2011, 05:12 PM   #290
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Default Interesting...

Completely self funded... ?

http://www.vpr.net/news_detail/77467/

This one has a map and everything on page 8-2

http://www.nh.gov/dot/org/aerorailtr...assessment.pdf

(Cut and pasted from the above link)

6. NPIAS Airports
Finding: Currently there are 14 airports in New Hampshire that are included in FAA’s National Plan of Integrated Airport System (NPIAS), 11 of which have received FAA grants. Silver Ranch, Parlin Field, and Plymouth Municipal Airport have NPIAS numbers but do not qualify for federal grants for capital improvement projects. The State currently manages the apportionment, discretionary and GA entitlement funding from FAA for the eight general aviation airports in the NPIAS (Boire Field, Dillant-Hopkins, Concord, Skyhaven, Laconia, Claremont, Berlin, and Mt. Washington Regional). By contrast, the Division of Aeronautics serves essentially as a pass-through of FAA discretionary and entitlement funds for the three commercial service airports (Manchester, Pease International Tradeport, Lebanon). In addition, revenues generated by passenger facility charges (PFCs) at those airports do not pass through the Division, nor does the Division have any role in the bonds issued by the commercial service airports.

This was just a quick search... lots more out there.
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Old 04-22-2011, 05:43 PM   #291
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If I may ask a question. Since the money goes through the state DOT perhaps another approach might be considered. The Govenor,why is the DOT allowing and jepardizing past and future funding for LAA by not holding hearings and or considering all of the reports as they pertain to Sky Dive Laconia and the Noonans plan? Maybe I am reading it incorrectly but a report from DOT is a state entity and as such should report on this issue wher the LAA refuses.
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Old 04-23-2011, 12:59 AM   #292
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Post Old Info Received Today...

Same ol' Same Ol'. LAA is doing their best, to lose some of the more educated among us!

The Noonan's stand to bring a better economic future and picture that the stone Waller's want to warm their chairs about!

2008 to 2011 and still waiting!
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Old 04-25-2011, 01:53 PM   #293
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Default Skydive Laconia

Hi robmac,

The FAA federal funding process is typically handled through the FAA at a federal level where airports request funding specifically from the FAA. There are a handful of "block grant states", where the state requests to be involved directly in deciding what amounts of federal dollars the airports within their states are appropriated.

It is a "pilot program", meaning that it's still in it's test phase of FAA acceptance.

I don't want to be accused of smoke and mirrors, yet again.....lol, but the reality is, the way this process has been handled thus far may very well affect the "block grant" status of the state when the pilot program concludes and the FAA decides if it will officially bless a state deciding it's own allocations.

If you would like to learn more about the program, I invite you to contact the NHDOT Supervisor or Aeronautical Planning and ask any questions you may have.

In theory, this department is supposed to help guide the LAA through this process of airport access issues and safety concern resolutions. To date, that has not occurred, and we are about three years in now. "That is a question for your lawyer to answer" has pretty much been the tone of the responses that we have received from the NHDOT thus far when citing LAA discrimination against our aeronautical activity.

The NHDOT is taking a completely hands off approach to this process. As a side note the Laconia Airport Manager and the NHDOT Supervisor of Aeronautical Planning have a clearly defined working relationship and consult often about all matters of LCI, including our proposal. Basically the NHDOT will work with the manager of LCI but not work with us unfortunately.

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,

Tom

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Old 04-25-2011, 02:21 PM   #294
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Default Skydive Laconia

Quote:
Some planes' insurance carriers may not allow them to fly or land at Laconia Airport in this case," said Hayes.
I find that this statement defines the status quo pretty well. As a community leader, don't you think it's advisable to find out for sure, "YES or NO" if some insurance carriers will not allow their insured aircraft to land at LCI BEFORE forming a concerned opinion and publishing it, let alone ACTUALLY VOTING on it?

And if after doing some research, Selectman Hayes by chance, found some outlier insurance policy that showed his concern was actually valid, would it also not be a good idea to do more due diligence and find out what percentage of aircraft insurers had such a clause?

Nope, according to somebody......that would be a waste of the Selectman's time.

My point is this, if 99 percent of aircraft insurers allowed their aircraft to land at airports with skydiving and only 1 percent did not, would that not be information that as a civic leader, you would want to know, prior to casting a vote that will affect your entire community?

Guess not.

Back to reality:

It's fact time again:
1) In ten years of skydiving at airports of similar size and traffic as LCI, I have landed parachutes while watching multi million dollar private jets take off and land. There is no universal insurance exclusion to landing private jets at airports that have skydiving. Could you find one? Probably, not going to be many if at all though.
2) Aircraft have numerous different types of insurance policies. There is "Hull Insurance" and "Third Party Liability" to name a few. It's not like a car, where you have a universal policy for everything.
3) Here is a shocker: There are GA aircraft out there (up there) with no insurance at all!. Cost of owning and operating an aircraft is soooo expensive, that some GA pilots forgo insurance at all. Now......what if one of these uninsured planes lands at LCI for a "hundred dollar hamburger" and taxis into a private jet........yup, no insurance. Perhaps the LAA should ramp check every plane in for an insurance certificate? Or better yet, post a big sign on the ground facing up to the sky saying "NO INSURANCE = NOT WELCOME" that is visible from the ground while these pilots are flying.
4) Back on topic: I have landed parachutes at airports beside practically every form of aircraft out there, including those big FedEx cargo transport jets.

If we are there operating, the planes will still come. Even the big ones. I know because I have done my due diligence. I did my homework.

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,

Tom
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Old 04-26-2011, 12:52 PM   #295
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Default Skydive Laconia

Just a quick update.

We got a copy of the second ADO report today.

The report was basically a regurgitation of the original report, even produced by the same FAA agent at Airports. (Ironic, huh?)

Anyways, the good news is atleast this time the title wasn't biased.....lol

I'd have to write a book to explain the process, but the unabridged version is that the ADO continued to use an evaluation process that has nothing to do with our business or proposal.

Some items of note though:

1) They stated (on FAA letterhead) that jet pilots are just too busy in the cockpit on approach to have to be bothered with "See and Avoid" procedures. Really. Apparently the ADO has now gone on record stating that the pilot SOPs for landing that you are required to follow are now determined by the size of plane that you fly. Really? Wow. "See and Avoid" is a procedure EVERY pilot is supposed to do while flying.

2) They again stated that student pilots have a greater right to the airport than our business. That they keep putting this discriminatory statement on FAA letterhead is really odd. But they continue to do it none the less.

The list goes on and on, but you get the idea.

That's the bad news, but honestly, it was entirely expected.

These people at the ADO are engineers, not aviators. They have (and continue to) apply the wrong set of criteria in attempting to assert their role in this process.

The good news is that meetings are already scheduled with the FAA in Washington to address this (yet again) entirely biased and grossly inaccurate report.

So.......when the Citizen, Laconia Sun or Gilford Steamer report that the FAA again found the airport unsafe for skydiving, take it with a grain of salt. The "FAA" didn't find anything wrong with our proposal, the local ADO used inappropriate criteria to form a flawed evaluation. Again.

When this process is over, we will be vindicated and the FAA will have established a clearly defined process that allows for every aeronautical activity governed by the FAA it's rightful place in the sky and on the airport, even at the Laconia Airport.

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,
Tom
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Old 04-26-2011, 01:40 PM   #296
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Default Ooops.

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Originally Posted by RLW View Post
I could be wrong in that statement, but I bet there is far less against it in writing than there is for the project that is being requested for.
You would be wrong.

From the final FAA report: "FAA received over 80 comments from interested parties. The majority of these comments stated that this proposal presents a major safety concern to pilots and airport users".
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Old 04-26-2011, 01:46 PM   #297
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Default Musta missed that part

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Originally Posted by SIKSUKR View Post
What an insult.You posted a nice photo with an overlay in this very thread.I guess we are all too dumb to have seen that.
You are smart enough to realize that that graphic applied only to the first proposal, not the second, right?
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Old 04-26-2011, 01:55 PM   #298
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You would be wrong.

From the final FAA report: "FAA received over 80 comments from interested parties. The majority of these comments stated that this proposal presents a major safety concern to pilots and airport users".
The clear result of behind-the-scenes, small-town politics.....right!

In this country, people are entitled to present their proposals and to have a fair airing of their thoughts. This was clearly not the case here, was it! This is not what this country is supposed to be about.

This was a Slam-Bam-Thank you-Man back room deal, wasn't it!!

Slameful! Completely shameful!!

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Old 04-26-2011, 02:10 PM   #299
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Default The End

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNoonans View Post
Despite your extensive history as an aviator, you are not an aviation safety expert.
Yet even though you have not earned the simplest private pilot license, you are?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNoonans View Post
The "FAA" didn't find anything wrong with our proposal, the local ADO used inappropriate criteria to form a flawed evaluation.
You would have us believe there are two different FAA's? Seriously? And that the "Safety and Standards Branch" does not know what it is doing? Seriously?

For the record, here is what the FAA says about the Noonan's second proposal: (Bold italics are mine)

Quote:
Overall Analysis Conclusion

The Laconia Airport is a complex environment that serves a mix of aircraft traffic, with some inexperienced pilots. Further, the lack of air traffic control forces the pilots to operate in a “see and avoid” environment. We conclude that adding parachute operations would increase the risk of operating in that airspace.

The risks generated by the project as proposed, in our view, cannot be mitigated.


Determination
After consideration of the elements discussed above, the Airports Division found the proposed use objectionable. We have determined that the proposed skydiving areas would adversely affect the safe and efficient use of the navigable airspace by aircraft, and the safety of persons and property on the ground.
Q.E.D.
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Old 04-26-2011, 02:13 PM   #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyguy View Post
You are smart enough to realize that that graphic applied only to the first proposal, not the second, right?
This stuff sure can't help the business. OH, I have only seen you write on the forum with all the comments so I guess that your friends do not care about letting the PUBLIC know their feelings.



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