Perception of lake surface (?)

Sal · 11-17-2011, 02:52 PM

As the air temperature grows colder, I see the lake surface growing more
syrupy than it is in the summer. Some mornings late fall, it seems to be like
liquid mercury. Is this perception just because of the darker skies or is the water, in fact, more "syrupy"?

Enquiring minds ..... etc..

Resident 2B · 11-17-2011, 05:07 PM

It is the lower sun angle and the gray/darker sky. The viscosity of the water does not change. The lake is still six or seven weeks away from icing over.

R2B

RLW · 11-17-2011, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sal

As the air temperature grows colder, I see the lake surface growing more syrupy than it is in the summer. Some mornings late fall, it seems to be like liquid mercury. Is this perception just because of the darker skies or is the water, in fact, more "syrupy"?

Enquiring minds ..... etc..

Are you inquiring because of what you see on web cameras. I do not get that feeling of it being "syrupy" as you call it. It looks normal fall water and white caps when the wind blows a least here in the Alton Bay.

Jonas Pilot · 11-17-2011, 05:55 PM

I agree Sal. It makes sense that with temperature variations the denseness of water will vary. Water is at it's densest at 39.2 degrees F. Above and below that it becomes less dense. I have often thought that early and late in the year the water acts differently than in the warmer part of the season. I think that it shows up the most while fishing. Subsurface lures sink slower and there is more resistance on retrieval. I also have thought many times that the water does appear to be more "syrupy". I guess it could be the hypothermia though.

Pineedles · 11-17-2011, 07:49 PM

Enough of this scientific stuff about water density, viscosity, sypupcyness. Just jump in, and see if its harder to swim.

Merrymeeting · 11-17-2011, 08:19 PM

There used to be a good description of "lake flip" on the Squam Lakes site but it appears to be gone.

While this one is a bit more detailed, it's a good description, by season, of the process.

http://www.waterontheweb.org/under/l...ification.html

Sal · 11-18-2011, 07:37 AM

The question was based on what I see looking southerly from the norrtherly side of Moultonborough Bay, near Buzzell Cove. (although the wonderful images from the "new" Weirs Cam seem to give me the same perception)

SIKSUKR · 11-22-2011, 10:05 AM

Despite water being at its highest density at 39 degrees,I doubt a change in viscosity would be measurable by more than microscopic numbers.

Gearhead · 11-22-2011, 12:14 PM

I think you'll see that in a couple of months it'll be a lot more "syrupy".

NBR · 11-29-2011, 09:01 AM

[I]'m with 2B, it is the sun angle.

Merrymeeting · 11-29-2011, 06:27 PM

It does make you wonder...

This is the first year in many that I've been able to spend a significant amount of time at the lake at this time of year. It does seem that the water is significantly calmer most of the time.

I assume it is a combination of several factors. Number 1 is probably the lack of boat and human activity on the water. I'm sure that CLA could give us a weather analysis that shows that the winds are either calmer or different (or both) at this time of year. And I do wonder if the increasing density of the water due to temperature has anything to do with it.

What I can say is that the lake is beautiful any time of year. This morning when I got up, the water was dead calm, mirroring the mountains and shoreline above, mist hovered over the low lands and valleys, and the sunrise was adding a pink, blue, purple hue to the whole scene. It was beautiful... and unfortunately I didn't have my camera.

Jonas Pilot · 11-29-2011, 06:47 PM

... what I said before. If you have a "critical eye" and spend a lot of time on the water, and are out when the ice breaks in the spring and don't put your boat away until the launch is too slippery to launch, you can see a difference in the waters apparent viscosity.

SIKSUKR · 12-01-2011, 09:19 AM

And corrected.Water density changes much more than I thought with reguard to temperature.First,liquid water is not most dense at 39.2.On the chart I link here it clearly shows a higher density right up to the freezing point.At 70 degrees it has a viscosity of 1 and at 39 degrees it is about a 1.55.Quite more significant than I realized.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wa...ity-d_596.html

DickR · 12-01-2011, 11:18 AM

SIK, that link shows only dynamic and kinematic viscosity. Searching on that site gives this:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wa...ght-d_595.html

The temperatures are every 10 degrees, but the table does show a maximum in density at "around" 40 F. A better source, such as the ASTM steam tables, gives the density at temperatures more closely spaced.

Water is a strange chemical in many ways, relative to other types of compounds. Density is one strange property, having a maximum somewhat above its freezing point, but that is why deep lakes can freeze over, while the heavier water, above the freezing point, settles down toward the bottom. And of course the density of water gets lower still upon freezing to the solid state, allowing it to float on the surface and not sink.

chaseisland · 12-04-2011, 05:35 PM

Went over to the island to make sure the lat/lon coordinates haven't changed during the last two weeks. Having read the syrupy thread I concur. It looked surupy, in fact it even sounded syrupy. Then I stuck my finger in the water and it tasted......

NoBozo · 12-04-2011, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaseisland

Went over to the island to make sure the lat/lon coordinates haven't changed during the last two weeks. Having read the syrupy thread I concur. It looked surupy, in fact it even sounded syrupy. Then I stuck my finger in the water and it tasted......

Tasted like WHAT...

NB

Greene's Basin Girl · 12-05-2011, 12:38 AM

Did it taste like maple syrup? Maybe I should have pancakes for breakfast and cover them with water from Lake Winnipesaukee. Yum Yum!!!!

11-17-2011, 02:52 PM	#1
Sal Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 311 Thanks: 103 Thanked 169 Times in 53 Posts	Perception of lake surface (?) As the air temperature grows colder, I see the lake surface growing more syrupy than it is in the summer. Some mornings late fall, it seems to be like liquid mercury. Is this perception just because of the darker skies or is the water, in fact, more "syrupy"? Enquiring minds ..... etc..

11-22-2011, 10:05 AM	#8
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	Despite water being at its highest density at 39 degrees,I doubt a change in viscosity would be measurable by more than microscopic numbers. __________________ SIKSUKR

11-29-2011, 06:47 PM	#12
Jonas Pilot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Wolfeboro, New Hampshire is my home, 24-7-365 Posts: 1,686 Thanks: 1,047 Thanked 336 Times in 189 Posts	I stand by ... ... what I said before. If you have a "critical eye" and spend a lot of time on the water, and are out when the ice breaks in the spring and don't put your boat away until the launch is too slippery to launch, you can see a difference in the waters apparent viscosity.

12-01-2011, 09:19 AM	#13
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	I stand aside.. And corrected.Water density changes much more than I thought with reguard to temperature.First,liquid water is not most dense at 39.2.On the chart I link here it clearly shows a higher density right up to the freezing point.At 70 degrees it has a viscosity of 1 and at 39 degrees it is about a 1.55.Quite more significant than I realized. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wa...ity-d_596.html __________________ SIKSUKR

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11-17-2011, 05:07 PM	#2
Resident 2B Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North Shore, MA Posts: 1,352 Thanks: 987 Thanked 310 Times in 161 Posts	It is the lower sun angle and the gray/darker sky. The viscosity of the water does not change. The lake is still six or seven weeks away from icing over. R2B

11-17-2011, 05:55 PM	#4
Jonas Pilot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Wolfeboro, New Hampshire is my home, 24-7-365 Posts: 1,686 Thanks: 1,047 Thanked 336 Times in 189 Posts	I agree Sal. It makes sense that with temperature variations the denseness of water will vary. Water is at it's densest at 39.2 degrees F. Above and below that it becomes less dense. I have often thought that early and late in the year the water acts differently than in the warmer part of the season. I think that it shows up the most while fishing. Subsurface lures sink slower and there is more resistance on retrieval. I also have thought many times that the water does appear to be more "syrupy". I guess it could be the hypothermia though.

11-17-2011, 07:49 PM	#5
Pineedles Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Moultonborough & CT Posts: 2,535 Thanks: 1,058 Thanked 652 Times in 363 Posts	Enough of this scientific stuff about water density, viscosity, sypupcyness. Just jump in, and see if its harder to swim.

The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Pineedles For This Useful Post:
BroadHopper (11-29-2011), jkjoshuatree (11-17-2011), Redwing (12-06-2011), sa meredith (11-22-2011), SteveA (11-18-2011)

11-17-2011, 08:19 PM	#6
Merrymeeting Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Merrymeeting Lake, New Durham Posts: 2,217 Thanks: 299 Thanked 795 Times in 365 Posts	There used to be a good description of "lake flip" on the Squam Lakes site but it appears to be gone. While this one is a bit more detailed, it's a good description, by season, of the process. http://www.waterontheweb.org/under/l...ification.html

11-18-2011, 07:37 AM	#7
Sal Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 311 Thanks: 103 Thanked 169 Times in 53 Posts	The question was based on what I see looking southerly from the norrtherly side of Moultonborough Bay, near Buzzell Cove. (although the wonderful images from the "new" Weirs Cam seem to give me the same perception)

11-22-2011, 12:14 PM	#9
Gearhead Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Alton Posts: 166 Thanks: 13 Thanked 19 Times in 8 Posts	I think you'll see that in a couple of months it'll be a lot more "syrupy".

11-29-2011, 09:01 AM	#10
NBR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bristol Posts: 119 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 15 Posts	[I]'m with 2B, it is the sun angle.

11-29-2011, 06:27 PM	#11
Merrymeeting Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Merrymeeting Lake, New Durham Posts: 2,217 Thanks: 299 Thanked 795 Times in 365 Posts	It does make you wonder... This is the first year in many that I've been able to spend a significant amount of time at the lake at this time of year. It does seem that the water is significantly calmer most of the time. I assume it is a combination of several factors. Number 1 is probably the lack of boat and human activity on the water. I'm sure that CLA could give us a weather analysis that shows that the winds are either calmer or different (or both) at this time of year. And I do wonder if the increasing density of the water due to temperature has anything to do with it. What I can say is that the lake is beautiful any time of year. This morning when I got up, the water was dead calm, mirroring the mountains and shoreline above, mist hovered over the low lands and valleys, and the sunrise was adding a pink, blue, purple hue to the whole scene. It was beautiful... and unfortunately I didn't have my camera.

12-01-2011, 11:18 AM	#14
DickR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 734 Thanks: 4 Thanked 254 Times in 166 Posts	SIK, that link shows only dynamic and kinematic viscosity. Searching on that site gives this: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wa...ght-d_595.html The temperatures are every 10 degrees, but the table does show a maximum in density at "around" 40 F. A better source, such as the ASTM steam tables, gives the density at temperatures more closely spaced. Water is a strange chemical in many ways, relative to other types of compounds. Density is one strange property, having a maximum somewhat above its freezing point, but that is why deep lakes can freeze over, while the heavier water, above the freezing point, settles down toward the bottom. And of course the density of water gets lower still upon freezing to the solid state, allowing it to float on the surface and not sink.

The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to DickR For This Useful Post:
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12-04-2011, 05:35 PM	#15
chaseisland Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Concord, NH Posts: 152 Thanks: 17 Thanked 66 Times in 42 Posts	Went over to the island to make sure the lat/lon coordinates haven't changed during the last two weeks. Having read the syrupy thread I concur. It looked surupy, in fact it even sounded syrupy. Then I stuck my finger in the water and it tasted......

12-05-2011, 12:38 AM	#17
Greene's Basin Girl Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Moultonborough, NH Posts: 1,515 Thanks: 394 Thanked 527 Times in 269 Posts	Did it taste like maple syrup? Maybe I should have pancakes for breakfast and cover them with water from Lake Winnipesaukee. Yum Yum!!!!

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