Right of Way?

[chipj29]

Pop quiz hotshot....which vessel is the stand-on vessel?

If you ask me...the bigger vessel wins!

OK...deleted the link as it is now a train/vehicle collision

[Airwaves]

The wave wins...surfing? I can't find any boat right of way incident

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

The wave wins...surfing? I can't find any boat right of way incident

That movie reminds me who has the right way.

Mother Nature!

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

The wave wins...surfing? I can't find any boat right of way incident

Ooopsie...I posted a bum link. Fixed it though...

[BroadHopper]

Any commercial vessel has the right of way. If neither are commercial or both are commercial, the boat off port has the right of way.

Normally commercial vessels radio their intentions.

[jmen24]

SOOOOOOO, What did they not have enough room.

"Lovey, this man is not going to move for me!!!! Doesn't he know who I am!"

[OCDACTIVE]

The boat that got creamed had the right of way. That was simply a case of captain ego.

In speaking with a LEO he said that the commercial vessels do not necessarily have the right of way, it is more of a courtesy. They are out there to do a job so those out for entertainment should head to.

If the larger vessel was indeed a commercial ship and expected to have the right of way then the proper procedure would have been to radio the other vessel, if that was not successful then they should signal by horn (I believe 3 short blasts), if that was not successful then it is their job to do whatever possible to avoid a collision especially since the other boat had the right of way.

I would have liked to have seen the video for the 5 minutes leading up to the collision to see if these steps were taken and what the captains communication (if any) was.

[upthesaukee]

...can be applied all the way to the point of impact, as is evident in this case .

[BroadHopper]

Good job OCD. Forgot about the 3 blasts. Can't recall if they are short or long. It's been decades since I have taken the Power Squadron course. I travel the intercoastal a few time and the general consensus is that the commercial vessels have the right of way. Can't recall if it is common courtesy or the rule.

Looks like I should go back to school before heading down to the Keys.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Good job OCD. Forgot about the 3 blasts. Can't recall if they are short or long. It's been decades since I have taken the Power Squadron course. I travel the intercoastal a few time and the general consensus is that the commercial vessels have the right of way. Can't recall if it is common courtesy or the rule.

Looks like I should go back to school before heading down to the Keys.

Yes Please do not quote me on the three short blasts. That may be to inform that you are over taking. It may be three long blasts (actually I think it is the long blasts to signal danger or make way etc)

[Dave R]

The boat on the starboard side had the right of way, but should have slowed or altered course to avoid the collsion.

Three short blasts means "I'm backing up", three long blasts means nothing I'm aware of. One short blast means "I'm overtaking to starboard" or "I intend to leave you on my port side", two short blast means "I'm overtaking to port" or "I intend to leave you on my starboard side". Either way, the blasts mean pretty much nothing if the other captain does not respond in kind.

In this situation, first off, the boat with the camera should have sounded two short blasts initially and then waited for a response. If the other boat failed to alter course or respond, then the boat with the camera should have given way. Since that did not happen, either captain should have sounded 5 short blasts which means "You are on am immenent collision course with me!" and done something about it.

[Airwaves]

It's an interesting question. I would say after seeing the video and reading the Colregs that both Captains can probably be held equally responsible since it does not appear either took evasive action.

RULE 14 - HEAD-ON

RULE 15 - CROSSING SITUATIONS
Rule 14

(a) Unless otherwise agreed [Inld] When two power-driven vessels are meeting on reciprocal or nearly reciprocal courses so as to involve risk of collision each shall alter her course to starboard so that each shall pass on the port side of the other.
(b) Such a situation shall be deemed to exist when a vessel sees the other ahead or nearly ahead and by night she could see the masthead lights of the other in a line or nearly in a line and/ [Intl] or both sidelights and by day she observes the corresponding aspect of the other vessel.

(c) When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether such a situation exists she shall assume that it does exist and act accordingly.

(d) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) of this Rule, a power-driven vessel operating on the Great Lakes, Western Rivers, or waters specified by the Secretary, and proceeding downbound with a following current shall have the right-of-way over an upbound vessel, shall propose the manner of passage, and shall initiate the maneuvering signals prescribed by Rule 34(a)(i), as appropriate. [Inld]

Rule 15

When two power-driven vessels are crossing so as to involve risk of collision, the vessel which has the other on her own starboard side shall keep out of the way and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid crossing ahead of the other vessel.

(b) Notwithstanding paragraph (a), on the Great Lakes, Western Rivers, or water specified by the Secretary, a power-driven vessel crossing a river shall keep out of the way of a power-driven vessel ascending or descending the river. [Inld]

As for the vessel on the starboard side being the stand-on vessel, the video seemed to me to be more of a head-on meeting than a crossing situation.

[ITD]

Reminds me of this little ditty:

Here lie the remains of William Jay
Who died maintaining his right of way,
He was right, dead right, as he sped along
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by ITD

Reminds me of this little ditty:

Here lie the remains of William Jay
Who died maintaining his right of way,
He was right, dead right, as he sped along
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.

Exactly my thought ITD. Dead right.
What would it have taken either captain to alter their course-exactly how much effort? There was not a single object in sight in that video, aside from the two boats. Of course for all we know they were passing through a narrow channel, but that does not appear to be the case.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

As for the vessel on the starboard side being the stand-on vessel, the video seemed to me to be more of a head-on meeting than a crossing situation.

I watched it again, and I agree. It was indeed more head-on than crossing. Based on what is shown, both should have altered course to starboard and sounded one short blast, long before the video started. That said, we cannot see what is off the starboard side of the boat with the camera. It's quite possible there was another vessel there and that the camera boat was already slowing because it could not alter course safely to starboard. Perhaps the camera vessel had already done everything possible and was hampered by limited maneuverability simply due to its large mass. What seems perfectly clear though, is that the smaller vessel could have altered course to starboard easily or slowed.

[Airwaves]

I watched it again, and I agree. It was indeed more head-on than crossing. Based on what is shown, both should have altered course to starboard and sounded one short blast, long before the video started. That said, we cannot see what is off the starboard side of the boat with the camera. It's quite possible there was another vessel there and that the camera boat was already slowing because it could not alter course safely to starboard. Perhaps the camera vessel had already done everything possible and was hampered by limited maneuverability simply due to its large mass. What seems perfectly clear though, is that the smaller vessel could have altered course to starboard easily or slowed.

Very true, the video was short and we don't know what (if anything) is to the starboard of the camera vessel or whether either boat had sounded its horn or not. Neither appears to have taken any evasive action at all! I only made my guess based on what we saw in the video.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Very true, the video was short and we don't know what (if anything) is to the starboard of the camera vessel or whether either boat had sounded its horn or not. Neither appears to have taken any evasive action at all! I only made my guess based on what we saw in the video.

I watched one more time this morning, and I think the camera vessel may have been slowing. Note how after the impact, the boats appear to both stop. Based on the size of the bow area on the camera boat, it's HUGE and unless it was actively trying to slow prior to the collision, I doubt it would simply stop like it did. If it were not actively slowing, I think it would plow through the other boat.

[ITD]

If I had to guess I would say the captain of the smaller boat was using the "big lake" theory of collision avoidance (as in this body of water is so large that I could never have a collision, this theory applies even more to the ocean in some people's mind) and was duly distracted from looking where he was going. The captain of the larger boat, even though he was supposed to yield, was so thoroughly convinced of his superiority that he waited until it was too late to avoid a collision. This becomes evident as he or his mate runs up on the bow of the larger boat after the collision with fist raised undoubtedly cursing the smaller boat, in some language I can't understand, for not respecting the larger boat's superiority.

Again, my guess,
YMMV.

[Airwaves]

Dave R

I watched one more time this morning, and I think the camera vessel may have been slowing. Note how after the impact, the boats appear to both stop. Based on the size of the bow area on the camera boat, it's HUGE and unless it was actively trying to slow prior to the collision, I doubt it would simply stop like it did. If it were not actively slowing, I think it would plow through the other boat.

It's hard to tell. I was trying to look at the sea to starboard of the camera vessel but I really couldn't say if it was slowing or not. The collision would certainly have stopped the boat since it doesn't appear either was traveling all that fast to begin with. I was trying to see where the accident my have happened, I think the boat that was struck may have been flying a flag from El Salvador but I can't be sure.
ITD

...The captain of the larger boat, even though he was supposed to yield,...

If this was a head-on situation as I believe it to have been then BOTH Captains were required to take evasive action by turning to starboard and passing each other port to port, something that the video doesn't show happening. Although the smaller boat could have already made the starboard turn in anticipation of the camera boat doing the same and it didn't. We'd really need to see more video from earlier in the encounter.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Dave R


If this was a head-on situation as I believe it to have been then BOTH Captains were required to take evasive action by turning to starboard and passing each other port to port, something that the video doesn't show happening. Although the smaller boat could have already made the starboard turn in anticipation of the camera boat doing the same and it didn't. We'd really need to see more video from earlier in the encounter.

I think the big boat was at fault. During the whole video, you can see only the port side of the little boat. I see the little boat, traveling from a position right of the big boat, heading to the left of the big boat. Head on would mean that both boats were traveling parallel to each other, you wouldn't have that t-bone type hit. Only the bow would be visible, if one side were visible, the other boat would be far enough to the left or right that they would miss each other. Unless it was a bow point to bow point hit, you would get more of a glancing blow. I would guess that if the big boat were heading due north, the little boat was probably on a heading of about 200 degrees, south/ southwest, traveling from starboard to port as viewed from the big boat. If you watch the video, the boats appear to have no relative motion to each other. This is because they were on a collision course.

If you are in your boat, and another boat is 40 degrees off to your left pointed from your left to right and is not moving across the horizon but fixed at one point, you are on a collision course unless someone takes evasive action. That's a good way to avoid collisions. Other boats should be moving relative to the horizon (even if they are still and you are not). If not you are on a collision course.

[NoRegrets]

I just watched the video a few more times and it looks like the smaller vessel was making a slight turn to the port side (into the path). Based on the impact and subsequent movement I do agree that it looks like the larger vessel was nearly stopped.
At the beginning of the clip there seems to be another vessel crossing behind the the small vessel.....could this mean there was a "channel" they were passing through? or just a standard day like we have between Weirs and Eagle?
The person that was on the bow of the smaller vessel is one lucky SOaG to have been able to walk away!

[Yosemite Sam]

Who has the right of way here, the Boat or the Bridge?

[Yosemite Sam]

Thought you might want to listen to Sailing Home (which is in the above boat crash) , song by Piet Veerman. I love his music.





Piet Veerman – Sailing Home lyrics


Sailin’ home across the ocean
Sailin’ home, we’re goin’ to be free
Down below the crew’s in motion
To defy the violence of the sea
Feelin’ young, feelin’ strong
At the height of the fight
So nothin’ can go wrong
We know we always wanna be fightin’ the sea

The giant waves are rollin’ higher
It’s gonna be a cold and rainy night
Hands on deck are raw and tired
Prayin’ for a sign of distant light
Feelin’ young ,feelin’ strong
And the might of the night
Is pounding dark and long
We know we always wanna be fightin’ the sea

But there’s the light and there’s the fire
The harbour quay shines dimly on the shore
We can see the steeple’s spire
And now we know we won the fight once more
Feelin’ young and feelin’ strong
And tonight came out right
Tomorrow could be wrong
We know we always wanna be fightin’ the sea

So young, so strong, so hard and long
Feeling young and feeling strong
And tonight came out right
But tomorrow could be wrong
We know we always wanna be fightin’ the sea
(Sailing home across the ocean)
(Sailing home, going to be free) Going to be free
(So young, so hard, so hard…)

[Airwaves]

ITD
This is the definition of Head-on using international rules

Such a situation shall be deemed to exist when a vessel sees the other ahead or nearly ahead and by night she could see the masthead lights of the other in a line or nearly in a line and/ [Intl] or both sidelights and by day she observes the corresponding aspect of the other vessel.

I looked at the video again and while I don't have a handy dandy boy scout compass so I held up my Bizer Chart's compass rose as best I could lining up 0 degreees to the larger boat's bow and it appears to me that the smaller boat was coming from about a 10 or 15 degree angle (granted not a good way to do it but the best I have at hand)

Remember the larger boat's bow is not straight up in the video, it's angled slightly to the right.

So based on that and the definition above I would suggest it was a head-on meeting not a crossing situation.

[ITD]

Airwaves, I estimated the angle to be about 20 degrees, even 10 or 15 degrees is a substantial deviation from running parallel to each other and would definitely fail the standard you quote of having the mast lights in a line. You absolutely cannot see both sidelights of the smaller boat. I still maintain they were crossing paths.

I also believe the larger boat was moving at a pretty good clip, although the smaller boat was going faster. If you watch closely you can see at one point water splash from the starboard bow of the larger boat. Also if you watch the water ahead of the larger boat you can see white areas that appear to be sand under water that move pretty rapidly by the boat. Finally, if you watch the small boat after the collision, the boat is turned to the same direction of travel as the larger boat is moving. I would not have expected that motion had the larger boat been stationary at impact.

[Airwaves]

ITD

Airwaves, I estimated the angle to be about 20 degrees, even 10 or 15 degrees is a substantial deviation from running parallel to each other and would definitely fail the standard you quote of having the mast lights in a line. You absolutely cannot see both sidelights of the smaller boat. I still maintain they were crossing paths.

I also believe the larger boat was moving at a pretty good clip, although the smaller boat was going faster. If you watch closely you can see at one point water splash from the starboard bow of the larger boat. Also if you watch the water ahead of the larger boat you can see white areas that appear to be sand under water that move pretty rapidly by the boat. Finally, if you watch the small boat after the collision, the boat is turned to the same direction of travel as the larger boat is moving. I would not have expected that motion had the larger boat been stationary at impact.

The masthead lights don't have to line up. Head-on certainly doesn't mean one boat is traveling at 0 degrees and the other is traveling at 180 degrees.

Others have said that they think from the video the larger boat was moving slowly or nearly stopped, again I can't tell but the smaller boat was certainly making way so it would have produced what we saw.

No regrets even suggested the smaller boat turned to port slightly putting it in a collision course so one could speculate that the smaller boat's skipper knew there would be a collision and was trying to set it up like he was the stand-on vessel. Was the collision in a narrow channel or open sea? That would also play into this. Not enough video to make any of these determinations!

We will just have to agree to disagree then. That is what makes investigating boating accidents so interesting, there are so many different ways of looking at it! Without seeing more of the video we really can't determine much of anything.

[bilproject]

Watch the video again and you'll see a person at the bow of the smaller boat who does not run away until after the collision. Can't believe he was not tossed overboard!

[John A. Birdsall]

[QUOTE=Dave R;113370]The boat on the starboard side had the right of way, but should have slowed or altered course to avoid the collsion.

Three short blasts means "I'm backing up",

If my memory serves me correctly it is five blasts of the horn that states that you are backing down. However I don't recall the rest of them. I use my whistle with five shrieks now and then.

[Yosemite Sam]

I did some parallax mapping to see if I could find the vertex of the angle at the time of impact. I plotted the hypotenuse of the angle at the vertex and found that the side opposite and side adjacent were a little off because of the slight movement as the boats made contact. It plotted out to be more of a polygon, which didn’t surprise me at all. So the angle during the movement of the two boats and at time of collision calculated out to be somewhere between 0 and 90 degrees. I could be off a little off but I don’t think so.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Yosemite Sam

I did some parallax mapping to see if I could find the vertex of the angle at the time of impact. I plotted the hypotenuse of the angle at the vertex and found that the side opposite and side adjacent were a little off because of the slight movement as the boats made contact. It plotted out to be more of a polygon, which didn’t surprise me at all. So the angle during the movement of the two boats and at time of collision calculated out to be somewhere between 0 and 90 degrees. I could be of a little off but I don’t think so.

Let's see....... If the angle of the dangle equals the torque of the.......... Oh never mind.

[Airwaves]

John A. Birdsall

If my memory serves me correctly it is five blasts of the horn that states that you are backing down. However I don't recall the rest of them. I use my whistle with five shrieks now and then.

Nope, 5 short blasts of the horn means "danger" 3 shorts blasts is "I am backing down"...engine in reverse.

ITD

Let's see....... If the angle of the dangle equals the torque of the.......... Oh never mind.

EXACTLY!

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Yosemite Sam

I did some parallax mapping to see if I could find the vertex of the angle at the time of impact. I plotted the hypotenuse of the angle at the vertex and found that the side opposite and side adjacent were a little off because of the slight movement as the boats made contact. It plotted out to be more of a polygon, which didn’t surprise me at all. So the angle during the movement of the two boats and at time of collision calculated out to be somewhere between 0 and 90 degrees. I could be of a little off but I don’t think so.

I concur. Totally. NB

[SBC]

All I saw was a train hit a vehicle.

Let's assume that all vessels are motorized in the following scenarios.

The vessel on the starboard side has the right of way however each operator has the responsibility to take early and substantial action to stop slow or change course to avoid collision. The boat on the right is always right.

Broadhopper, There is no navigational rule that says you must yield to a commercial vessel. You may be confusing this with the requirement that a vessel must give way to a less maneuverable vessel which might be exemplified by those greater than 39 feet (not necessarily commercial) or true commercial vessels such as barges, MS Mt. Washington or perhaps a larger fishing charter boat typically on the salty waters. This rule obviously applies to canoes, kayaks, sailboats under sail, etc.

For instance, how could you tell if one of those 21 foot runabouts out on the lake was a taxi or tour charter as they do not sport markings or lettering so how do you know they are commercial?

All powered vessels up to 39 feet are considered equals in maneuverability. This includes electric canoes to jet skis to GFBLs.

Drive with courtesy, it's the New Hampshire way. Hey! they should put that on street signs and maybe some floating signs. Whadayathink?

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by SBC

All I saw was a train hit a vehicle.

SBC, the video in the link has changed, so I just edited my original post to delete the link.

[Airwaves]

Chipj29, the link will still take you to the video, you just have to search for Yacht Collision.

[Misty Blue]

Please...Paaaaleeze stop using the term 'Right of Way"!

No one on the water has the right of way. There is the "Stand on vessel" and the "Give way vessel". Both have responsibilities needed to avoid collision.

The "Give way vessel" has the responsibility to take early and substansive action to avoid a collision. Get it? Put simply he has to turn, slow down or stop to avoid the collision.

The "Stand on vessel" has a RESPONSIBILITY (not a privilage) to maintain course and speed unless you are in NH where they cloud things up by saying maintain course and a speed appropriate for the situation. This is important.

Say you are in a power boat and have an other power boat coming at you from your port side. At night he would see your red running light and you would see his green running light. Of course during the day you see his starboard side, he would see your port.

He is the give way vessel, you are the stand on vessel. Think of the running lights as stop and go lights.

Now he as the give way vessel should sound one short blast on his horn (about one second) and turn to starboard to pass behind you. He expects you as the stand on vessel to maintain course and speed. If you start turning or slowing down you are confusing the maneuver and nobody knows what is going on!

Now if this guy doesn't turn (prefered) or slow down YOU as the stand on vessel have the responsibility to deviate from the rules and take what ever acton is necessary to avoid the collision. This is a good time to sound five short blasts from your horn, the "Danger Doubt signal". Both guys in the vidio screwed up.

There is an acromym to help us remember who is the stand on vessel when approaching another vessel of an other type, say the Mount Washington.

New Reals Catch Fish So Purchase Some Often

N= Vessel Not under command. That is due to some reason the vessel can
not maneuver. Say the propeller fell off or the rudder is stuck.

R= Vessel Restricted in it's ability to maneuver. Say the Mount heading into
the Weirs docks.

C= Vessel Constrained by draft. Say the Mount passing Eagle island.

F= Vessel engaged in Fishing. This is large commercial vessels. Not two
buddies trying to catch lake salmon by Timber island.

S= Sailing vessel. This is self explanitory except that when two sailing
approach each other there is an other set of rules.

P= Power driven vessel. Probably you.

S= Seaplane.

O= Vessel Overtaking another vessel. ie. If you are being passed by a
sailing vessel he is the give way vessel.

I don't mean to preach (well maybe a little) but understanding the DUTY of the Give way Vessel is vital.

This was one of the contributing causes to the collision between the Stockholm and the Andria Doria.

Misty Blue.

[BroadHopper]

Whenever I see a watercraft with a marina's name on it or it says Rental, I am the give away vessel. As those who rent usually do the 'boneheads' manuever. That is why I am in favor that renters take the full safety course.

[Pricestavern]

I LOVE these kinds of threads. Seriously. Very informative. It made my take out my Chapman Piloting book and re-read the section on signalling.

On a less serious note, anyone see the clip concerning right of way involving the USS Montana? See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brNX4xqlXJE

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Pricestavern

I LOVE these kinds of threads. Seriously. Very informative. It made my take out my Chapman Piloting book and re-read the section on signalling.

On a less serious note, anyone see the clip concerning right of way involving the USS Montana? See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brNX4xqlXJE

that is an old joke... always makes me laugh though!