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Old 09-16-2006, 06:56 PM   #1
SteveA
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Default OK... tell me if I was wrong...

To all:

Today.. (Saturday) I was eastbound between Locke Is. and Glendale.. not in the no wake... as I passed Glendale there was a large (34+) coming out of Glendale on my starboard side.

I'm driving my 50 HP 20' pontoon and steered to Port well before the 150' line. ( I had 9 folks onboard) so.. I was hardly over headway speed.

As I steered to Port. I had a boat coming head on.. to my Port side,

Choice was... stay on course.. ( allowing the head on to pass my Port) or cross the head on Hard Port. Sorta like I was the "monkey in the middle"

Turns out the head on was a MP boat... He loud hailed me.. I explained the situation... and he didn't write me up... but I'm really confused

Was I Right or Wrong?

SteveA
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Old 09-16-2006, 07:21 PM   #2
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Chapter 3: Operating Your Boat—Safely
Navigation Rules—Traffic Laws of the Waterways

http://www.boat-ed.com/nh/course/p3-...ringothers.htm

Encountering Other Vessels

Give-Way Vessel: Avoid crossing in front of other vessels.

Stand-On Vessel: If you must take action, do not turn toward the give-way vessel or cross in front of it.

How are the two vessels approaching one another?

Paths that cross: two vessels are on crossing paths so as to involve risk of collision.

Meeting Head-On:
Movie: See the action! http://www.boat-ed.com/flash/headonpowervspower.html

Paths That Cross:
Movie: See the action! http://www.boat-ed.com/flash/crossingpowervspower.html

Hope this helps...
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Old 09-16-2006, 07:25 PM   #3
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I find your explaination slightly confusing but it doesn't sound like you did anything wrong except for going "hardly over" headway speed approaching the head on. You didn't define that distance. Next time (if there is one)just stop till it passes. Can't do anything wrong if you're not moving
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Old 09-16-2006, 11:56 PM   #4
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Default 50hp hahahahhahahah

You are wrong....

Anyone driving a 50hp boat doesn't know their ass from their ear....you are wrong. What the hell does 50 hp get you now a days? I don't mean to sound rude, but what the hell does 50hp do??? maybe tow a ski bob? Anyone ski-bob? Nope..
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Old 09-17-2006, 06:32 AM   #5
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Default Thanks GWC and Cal...

Ya, I was confused... that area right around Glendale docks gets alot of cross traffic..

I think the best thing I could have done was stop and let the traffic clear.

NHFreedom....

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Old 09-17-2006, 11:28 AM   #6
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SteveA
If I understand the scenerio that you described then the 34+ coming out of Glendale was the stand-on vessel to you and had the right of way. Steering to port would have put you in a headon situation with another vessel (in this case MP) and maybe put you at risk of collision with the 34+...

If I am understanding this correctly you probably should have slowed and steered slightly to starboard to pass the stand-on vessel on his stern avoiding the headon situation entirely, passing the MP port to port at headway speed.

And if I further understand the crossing situation the Marine Patrol boat may have been the stand-on vessel to the 34+ so the 34+ should have steered slightly to starboard to pass the Marine Patrol boat on its stern. Unless the MP boat had already gone past the intersection where the 34+ would have been a factor. But in either case, if I understand the scenerio, you should have passed to the stern of the 34+.

You're right, it's a very confusing crossing situation.
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Old 09-18-2006, 08:05 AM   #7
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I'm not sure about this.You didn't say what did the MP repremanded you for.
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Old 09-18-2006, 08:34 AM   #8
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Smile Crossing

Seems to me Airwaves has it right. If you had a stand on vessel approaching you from starboard, you would never turn to your port. All that does is move the intersection point of the two vessels further out. Doesn't matter how slow you were going, if you were on a collision course with the vessel on your starboard, you may need to slow down even more and turn to starboard and pass to his stern. If everyone is doing it right, you won't encounter another head on vessel if you are passing this way. As airwaves stated, the 34+ should have been trying to pass the MP boat at the MP boat's stern as well.
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Old 09-18-2006, 10:34 AM   #9
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Another way to look at it (though perhaps a stretch...): The 34 foot boat coming out of Glendale was entering a "channel" between Locke Island and Glendale and coming from a slip or a mooring (coming out of a no-wake zone into an ulimited speed zone), and therefore was not the stand-on vessel, even if it was off your starboard quarter. The boats in the channel are stand-on in this situation and the boat entering the channel should give way.

I think the 34 foot vessel should have slowed to let you pass since he also had to give way to the MP boat off his starboard quarter, regardless. Which way did the 34 foot vessel end up going?

Trying to figure why you'd ever steer to port in this situation, especially with oncoming traffic... You should always steer to pass behind the other vessel if you must take action, stand-on or not.
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Old 09-18-2006, 11:18 AM   #10
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Default Bad form

Quote:
Originally Posted by NHFreedom
You are wrong....

Anyone driving a 50hp boat doesn't know their ass from their ear....you are wrong. What the hell does 50 hp get you now a days? I don't mean to sound rude, but what the hell does 50hp do??? maybe tow a ski bob? Anyone ski-bob? Nope..
Mark
NHFreedom,

I am usually not on to get after people but man you hit a nerve. Your opion of boating my not be a 50 hp Pontoon but that is your view. There are many types of boat out there, because no one is the same. YOU SHOULD NEVER POKE FUN AT SOMEONE BECAUSE THERE VIEW OF FUN IS DIFFERENT THEN YOURS.......boating is here for all of us.......Those with the 6hp utility boat to those with the 40' crusiers and everything in between.....When was the last time you question your actions...... At least SteveA is man enough to do that.........
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Old 09-18-2006, 12:55 PM   #11
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Default Pretend It's Night Time

SteveA,

May be this would be easier if it was night time and your forward navigation lights are on (Red, Port and Green, Starboard). If the 34+ was ahead and to your right at a 90 degree angle, he has the “green light” to pass your bow. You need to pass to his stern (or stop). The opposite applies if there was a vessel approaching at 90 degrees to your Port (Red). You now have the right of way. When passing head to head you need to steer to Starboard (Right) to give a safe passing distance between both vessels, come to “Wake Speed” (within 150” of the approaching vessel). This is what you should do, or may be the best thing to do is when in doubt STOP.

With all this said do not trust that the other guy knows what he is supposed to do in any of these situations.

Have you taken the Boater Safety Course? It covers these situations quite well.

Here is a helpful link to the Boaters Guide of New Hampshire is has a good guide to vessel navigation. What applies at night applies during the day time.

http://www.boat-ed.com/nh/handbook/index.htm


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Old 09-18-2006, 01:09 PM   #12
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Default One Word LIforrelaxin

Quote:
Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin
NHFreedom,

I am usually not on to get after people but man you hit a nerve. Your opion of boating my not be a 50 hp Pontoon but that is your view. There are many types of boat out there, because no one is the same. YOU SHOULD NEVER POKE FUN AT SOMEONE BECAUSE THERE VIEW OF FUN IS DIFFERENT THEN YOURS.......boating is here for all of us.......Those with the 6hp utility boat to those with the 40' crusiers and everything in between.....When was the last time you question your actions...... At least SteveA is man enough to do that.........

BRAVO !!!
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Old 09-18-2006, 01:29 PM   #13
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Thumbs down Actually, you're wrong NH Freedom

Quote:
Originally Posted by NHFreedom
You are wrong....

Anyone driving a 50hp boat doesn't know their ass from their ear....you are wrong. What the hell does 50 hp get you now a days? I don't mean to sound rude, but what the hell does 50hp do??? maybe tow a ski bob? Anyone ski-bob? Nope..
Mark

After a lifetime of observation, I find the people with the older, slower boats usually DO know their "ass from their ear." Boating does not need to be about speed. And not everyone tows things, many of us use our boats to get from place to place (i.e. the islands to shore).

And by the way, if you need to preface a comment to a stranger with "I don't mean to sound rude," you probably should keep the comment to yourself.
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Old 09-18-2006, 01:41 PM   #14
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Default Easiest way to explain the situation

Thanks for the comments...

I think Cal is right... I should have just slowed more than I did or stopped. With the chop in the channel I was just trying maintain headway speed..

What the MP yelled to me was, I was more than headway speed within 150... He didn't "pull me over".

What was unnerving was I started the slight turn to port to stay more than 150 from the 34'.. and saw this small boat coming right at me from 300-400 ' at high speed.. that was the MP.. (I didn't know it at the time.)

Lesson Learned....

Thanks to all

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Old 09-18-2006, 02:44 PM   #15
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NHFreedom
You are wrong....

Anyone driving a 50hp boat doesn't know their ass from their ear....you are wrong. What the hell does 50 hp get you now a days? I don't mean to sound rude, but what the hell does 50hp do??? maybe tow a ski bob? Anyone ski-bob? Nope..
Mark
What kind of post was that??? Was it really necessary? Being that I just sold my pontoon with a 50hp engine I can speak from experience that it is sufficient to get you around. We carried 5-10 people plus gear at a time to the island on a weekly basis. Worked great for our needs. Seems like my ears are just fine, but I know where I can find an ass if I need to...
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Old 09-18-2006, 03:49 PM   #16
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Default don't feed the trolls..

When somebody shows up w/5 posts and says something nonsensical like NHFreedom's 50 hp post - he's trolling. Best idea is put him on "ignore"... Entering into a debate with a poster like that is a bad idea. His comment added no value to the thread, and I want back the 15 seconds of my life spent reading it..

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Old 09-18-2006, 04:00 PM   #17
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Default Gotta love 20-20 hindsight

especially with a map!!!!

If you had ducked in behind the 34', the MP should have kept both to port, that is assuming everyone else did what you expected them to do (someone else already said don't bank on that thought ). Of course, you could have taken the hard left, and gone up through the channel between Rock & Locke .

Glad it worked out for you SteveA, and thanks for bringing it up. I actually will be keeping my boat in Smith's cove next year, so I will probably get to see a lot of this.
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Old 09-18-2006, 06:47 PM   #18
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What SteveA did isn't necessarilly wrong. If you are approaching on a crossing course and you're on their port, they are the stand-on vessel. You must give way. But if you can change your course to a parallel course and remove the crossing situation there is no need to yield. Of course, if that manuver puts you head on with another boat, then you have a new problem.

I have noticed it with many boat operators over the years including myself. Sometimes we will do all kinds of turning and twisting to get around other boats without breaking the rules, when all we really had to do is stop or slow down.
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Old 09-19-2006, 08:05 AM   #19
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Steve A, Now that I see the diagram, I understand why you steered to port. I think I would have too, and then slowed as the head-on boat approached at speed. Sorry if I was rude in my first reply. You basically dealt with one problem at a time, and I think that's usually the best approach. That's a dicey area to boat. Won't be surprised (but I will be disappointed) if they make the whole area a no-wake some day.

The 34 foot boat's captain should have throttled up momentarily to clear the area (best choice) or throttled down and let you pass; just to avoid a "situation", even if he/she was not obligated to do so. If it were me, I would have been long gone by the time you arrived at the original point of intercept, I always lean toward throttling up; hard to be in an accident if you are not there

If you failed to slow to headway speed at <150 feet, the MP did the right thing. Glad it was just a loud-hailer warning and not a ticket. I think the 150 foot rule between boats out in the open is kinda silly. MP must've thought so too. Can't say I have ever seen a pontoon boat "pulled over"...
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Old 09-19-2006, 09:38 AM   #20
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Question Tough situation

The diagram makes it a lot easier to envision but still there are some ambiguities that make it hard to give you the exactly correct advice so take this FWIW. As the 34' came out he was the stand-on vessel and so you needed to slow or turn away. Depending on where the MP boat was and exactly the relative positions of yourself and the 34'-er, you had several options. One was to do what you did and this doesn't seem unreasonable. You also could have continued turning to port so as to allow enough room for the MP to pass btw you and the 34'. Or you could have stopped dead and let the situation resolve itself. If the MP was far enough away you could also have slowed to allow the 34' to pass and then turned in behind him to follow but only if such a manuver wouldn't have put you in immediate risk of collision with the MP. So w/o being there I can't say which is the best option. A good rule is to always act in a predictable fashion so others can figure out what they need to do. The best thing now is to give it some thought and figure out what you'd do in a similar situation in the future (hence your post). I'm a bit curious as to what the MP boat did. He was the give-way vessel in any case and ideally he should have slowed or stopped far enough in advance to avoid further complicating the situation. Was his warning that you were too close to the 34'-er or to his boat ?
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Old 09-19-2006, 10:54 AM   #21
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Default Look at this navigation this way...

Picture this....Starboard (right)side has a green light, port (left) is red wether day or night try to imagine. If you see red, STOP! if you see green, you GO!

I have only a 25 hp! Where do I rank?
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Old 09-19-2006, 12:16 PM   #22
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In looking at the diagram I probably would have steered the pontoon to starboard and fallen in behind the 34+

That would do a couple of things. It would eliminate the wake from the 34+ rocking your pontoon broadside and smoothed out the ride since you'd be in his wake. Yes you'd have to cross his wake but doing it at an angle to the bow is easier on the passengers.

It would have also eliminated the head-on situation.

This is assuming that both you and the 34+ ended up beside each other once the 34+ changed course and headed out into the lake. If you were ahead of him then you were the stand-on vessel to the 34+.

As far as the MP goes I believe both you and he should have steered slightly to starboard to avoid the head-on situation, unless the MP was restricted by draft (how close to the bouy was he?)

I know, the purists will say all vessels in a lake are restricted by draft but you know what I mean.
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Old 09-19-2006, 07:22 PM   #23
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Question Port-port prefered but ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airwaves
In looking at the diagram I probably would have steered the pontoon to starboard and fallen in behind the 34+

That would do a couple of things. It would eliminate the wake from the 34+ rocking your pontoon broadside and smoothed out the ride since you'd be in his wake. Yes you'd have to cross his wake but doing it at an angle to the bow is easier on the passengers.

It would have also eliminated the head-on situation.

This is assuming that both you and the 34+ ended up beside each other once the 34+ changed course and headed out into the lake. If you were ahead of him then you were the stand-on vessel to the 34+.

As far as the MP goes I believe both you and he should have steered slightly to starboard to avoid the head-on situation, unless the MP was restricted by draft (how close to the bouy was he?)

I know, the purists will say all vessels in a lake are restricted by draft but you know what I mean.
The above is my gut feel for the best answer but if the 34'-er was abeam of SteveA then there might not have been enough time/distance for him to fall in line w/o putting himself into the path of the MP boat. The above allows everyone a nice port-port pass to resolve the scenario. I dislike forcing the MP (via a harder turn to port assuming the rocks would have allowed it) to shoot the gap between SteveA and the 34'-er unless it could have been telegraphed far enough in advance. The 300' - 400' mentioned previously sounds a bit too close for that. In some ways the MP boat, being the give-way vessel to SteveA, should have signalled his intent early via slowing and a turn to starboard. This would have allowed SteveA to cross and fall into line behind the 34. Assuming the MP didn't turn then perhaps the best answer is to have SteveA slow a bit (to allow the 34 to pass) and then parallel the course of the 34'-er at a legal distance. Now it's up to the MP boat to do his part. If he slows or stops and the distance btw him and SteveA falls to 150' then SteveA is also required to come to NWS. Is it this last bit that didn't occur and got the MP's attention ?

ps - Almost no matter what, because SteveA is going just above NWS, any manuver he does (or doesn't do) isn't going to create much of a difference in the trajectories.

pps - And kudo's to SteveA for bringing this up. A good discussion on one of the real life situations faced on the lake rather than the easy boat on boat encounters discussed in manuals and courses.
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Old 09-19-2006, 09:18 PM   #24
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Talking to stop or not to stop

that is the question. I think I would have gone to port and slowed down keeping away from MP, and giving other boat plenty of room to get within 150'of the Marine patrol and he having to also slow down.

But to stop or not to stop that is the question... Hamlet if I recall. When in question that is the best answer stop, look around, enjoy the view, and take your time, be on the water.

Now for the person who thinks that HP and boating simulates fun. I owned a boat when I was young. 12 years old to be sure. It was 6' long, had a six hp elgin on it. And their were not too many boats that when this was moving at that time could catch it.

I also used and eventually owned a 11' home made boat that started with the six hp elgin, and went to an 18 hp johnson. It was a fun boat, and I went in every conceiveable place on the lake. I have owned many boats since that one, and if I could build it, I would again be using the same style boat.

by the way the mount had a great dislike for that boat, it could not go to Alton Bay without it pestering it.
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Old 09-20-2006, 07:41 AM   #25
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Exclamation Help

From someone's previous post..
"The 34 foot boat coming out of Glendale was entering a "channel" between Locke Island and Glendale and coming from a slip or a mooring (coming out of a no-wake zone into an ulimited speed zone), and therefore was not the stand-on vessel, even if it was off your starboard quarter. The boats in the channel are stand-on in this situation and the boat entering the channel should give way."

Is this true? I notice boats in the channel going by the Barber's Pole assuming R.O.W. all the time. I yield so no one gets killed. It took me a while to learn this, but legally I understand that if I'm on their starboard quarter that I'm the stand on. Please clarify "channel" ROW's. Someone's "wrong, big time" on this. Maybe it's me.
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Old 09-20-2006, 08:52 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finder
From someone's previous post..
"The 34 foot boat coming out of Glendale was entering a "channel" between Locke Island and Glendale and coming from a slip or a mooring (coming out of a no-wake zone into an ulimited speed zone), and therefore was not the stand-on vessel, even if it was off your starboard quarter. The boats in the channel are stand-on in this situation and the boat entering the channel should give way."

Is this true? I notice boats in the channel going by the Barber's Pole assuming R.O.W. all the time. I yield so no one gets killed. It took me a while to learn this, but legally I understand that if I'm on their starboard quarter that I'm the stand on. Please clarify "channel" ROW's. Someone's "wrong, big time" on this. Maybe it's me.
That'd be me. Bear in mind, I also said it was "a stretch" and I only added it to the thread to liven things up and perhaps spur on some more conversation (hey, it worked!) ... Here are the rules for a narrow channel (the last one is key AND probably not applicable in this situation BUT may be very applicable in your situation):


Operating in Narrow Channels

A vessel in a narrow channel must keep as far to the edge of the channel on the vessel’s starboard side as is safe and practical.

If you are operating a power-driven vessel heading upstream (against the direction of the current) on the Mississippi River system, then all power-driven vessels coming toward you from the opposite direction have the right-of-way and you must give way.

If operating a vessel less than 20 meters (65.6 ft.) in length, a sailing vessel or a vessel engaged in fishing, or a vessel crossing the channel, you may not get in the way of vessels that can only navigate within the channel (such as a large ship).

You must not anchor in a narrow channel, unless the circumstances require anchoring.

You must use the appropriate sound signals and use caution while operating in a narrow channel when:
Overtaking or being overtaken
When your view is obstructed such as when you approach a bend in the channel

If you are leaving a dock, slip or tie-up mooring, you must give way to all approaching vessels.
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Old 09-20-2006, 12:05 PM   #27
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Dave R
Quote:
If you are leaving a dock, slip or tie-up mooring, you must give way to all approaching vessels.
You're right, that is a stretch in this situation. I wondered about that statement myself when it was posted it but I didn't have a chance to look it up to see what rule you were quoting.

Given the diagram SteveA posted I am confused why anyone would say Steve turning to port would be correct?

Perhaps I don't have a grasp on the distances involved but it seems that turning to port would have put him on a headon collision course with the Marine Patrol boat.
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Old 09-20-2006, 03:49 PM   #28
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Question Distances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airwaves
Given the diagram SteveA posted I am confused why anyone would say Steve turning to port would be correct?

Perhaps I don't have a grasp on the distances involved but it seems that turning to port would have put him on a headon collision course with the Marine Patrol boat.
Yup and it comes down to the distances involved. If the MP had been "far away" but on a collision course SteveA could have been very proactive and turned hard to port, potentially going up the channel btw Lockes I and the rock field. The problem is, as you point out, that the MP could very well turn to his starboard (a normal action since he is the give-way vessel re: to SteveA) at the same time and you end up with both boats back/still on a collision course. Sort of like 2 people both stepping to the same side of a doorway to allow the other to pass. SteveA mentions above that the MP was maybe 300' - 400' away after dealing with the 34' and so IMO this is too close to do the above.

SteveA mentions a turn to port but his diagram doesn't really show it. I assume that this turn occured at or before the "Me" shown in the diagram, as he saw the 34' coming out of Glendale and turning away to follow the shoreline. The MP is, perhaps, out of the picture at this point and so a slight turn to port, so his course parallels that of the 34', doesn't seemed unreasonable. If my assumption is correct then perhaps it would have been better to have slowed a bit, continuing on the original heading, and fall in line behind the 34'. This still would have left a crossing situation, potentially a collision course, and so the MP still had the responsibility to give-way. Given the speed of his pontoon boat I think that this course correction wouldn't have made that much difference in his position relative to the MP. Kinda hard to judge it all from a hand drawn diagram but fun to muse about. Still not sure whether the MP had a problem with SteveA's distance from the MP boat or the 34'-er.
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Old 09-20-2006, 06:39 PM   #29
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Default Channels

So what's the law on Winnipesaukee. Who defines a channel? Does a boat in a channel have R.O.W? Was this in the safe boating course? I say if you're approached on your starboard quarter, you're the burdened vessel.
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Old 09-20-2006, 06:45 PM   #30
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I was assuming that the maneuvering began at the point of the diagram, not prior to it.
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Old 09-21-2006, 08:20 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finder
So what's the law on Winnipesaukee. Who defines a channel? Does a boat in a channel have R.O.W? Was this in the safe boating course? I say if you're approached on your starboard quarter, you're the burdened vessel.
I agree, unless said boat just pulled away from a dock or a mooring the other boat does not have room to maneuver. There never should be a need for someone to leave a dock in such a fashion that they immediately put themelves on a collision course. One other thought: if they do leave a dock at no-wake speed, then thottle up 150+ feet from the dock such that their speed now puts them on a collision course, they are not maintaining speed and heading like a stand-on vessel should. In my opinion, a vessel should not force it's right of way by changing speed or heading just to become a stand-on vessel, that's clearly not the intent of the law.

I was thinking the 34 foot vessel may have been at no-wake speed and throttling up when it put itself on a collision course with SteveA. To me, that's a no no.
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Old 09-21-2006, 12:25 PM   #32
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Finder,

An example of the situation that Dave R is talking about where you as the vessel to starboard would NOT be the standon vessel is if you are leaving the gas docks at Thurston's.

As you pull off the dock you are to starboard of anyone coming under the bridge from the Weirs, but you do not have the right of way.

So if the 34+ boat in SteveA's scenerio were just coming out of the channel in Smith Cove in the No Wake area and entering an area of unlimited speed then the 34+ has to wait his turn to hop on it, he can't LEGALLY "cut off" SteveA just because he's on Steve's starboard. (Although he probably would!)
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Old 09-21-2006, 01:20 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airwaves
Finder,

An example of the situation that Dave R is talking about where you as the vessel to starboard would NOT be the standon vessel is if you are leaving the gas docks at Thurston's.

As you pull off the dock you are to starboard of anyone coming under the bridge from the Weirs, but you do not have the right of way.

So if the 34+ boat in SteveA's scenerio were just coming out of the channel in Smith Cove in the No Wake area and entering an area of unlimited speed then the 34+ has to wait his turn to hop on it, he can't LEGALLY "cut off" SteveA just because he's on Steve's starboard. (Although he probably would!)
Thank you for putting it so eloquently. That's exactly what I was trying to say.
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Old 09-21-2006, 04:56 PM   #34
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Default The captain knows his stuff!

Bravo Zulu DaveR!

You got the meaning of Colregs Rule # 9 nutz on!

The question is, does it apply?

I should know this but I have has so many different answers to this I am confused. Maybe this one should be for Skip.

Just because our Lake is wholly within the State of New Hampshire do the navigation rules that are used in every other state and nation on the planet apply? Even if they don't conflict or when there is no NH rule?

I have had Coasties scoff and say "Of course they do". I have had NHMP tell me that legislature makes all of the rules here.

Any ideas?

Misty Blue.
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Old 09-21-2006, 05:27 PM   #35
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Airwaves:

I thought boats coming out of marinas/harbors, etc had the right away?
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Old 09-21-2006, 06:22 PM   #36
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Misty Blue: We all know NH is a world unto itself when it comes to boating, but if I were an attorney, and I am not, I would say if no NH rule applies or contradicts the Colregs, then the Colregs apply.

Secondcurve: I'll have to look that one up, but why would you think that someone coming out of a marina or harbor would have the right of way over a vessel already underway?

In the case of the Thurston's example, not only are you leaving the gas dock and cutting across traffic, but the traffic to your port is heading down stream and going with the current. That automatically gives them the right of way even over vessels in the same channel coming from Paugus Bay into the Weirs.
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Old 09-21-2006, 06:43 PM   #37
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Post COLREGS & the Big Lake

Won't go into a lengthy diatribe here, feel free to contact me off-line if you would like addirional info.

COLREGS applies to the high seas and waterways connecting to same. By definition Lake Winni does not apply.

The inland waters of the State of New Hampshire not designated by definintion as Federal navigable waterways are controlled by the State of New Hampshire and not the Feds. Therefore, the applicable regulations one must abide by are those enacted by the State of New Hampshire via it's elected legislative body.

There are always some (but very few) instances where federal regulations supercede local jurisdiction, but in the case cited by this particular post NH regulations, no matter how vague or in conflict with other States or the feds, apply.

Now NH does have ample tidal ( and Federal jurisdiction) waterways here along the Coast, and responsibilities are shared amongst the Federal, State and local authorities. NH law is in full effect along these Federal waterways unless it conflicts with Federal regulations. And yes, the NHMP has full law enforcement authority along these Federal waterways within the border of the State, unlike the claims made last year by a relative few here and on other sites.

Bottom line? NH has some unique inland regulations that conflict with the current COLREG, but most States have some uniqueness about them....although NH seems to be more unique than others!

That is one reason that any on-line (or sit-in) boating class or the acceptance of out-of-state licensing has to be approved by the NHMP, due to some serious conflicts out there.

And as Misty Blue has opined in the past, I truly believe the State should revamp it's current regulations to be more in line with the Feds & adjoining States....but I don't see that on the horizon anytime soon.

Hope this helped some.....just remember, when in NH yah gotta do it the NH way (in most cases )

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Old 09-21-2006, 07:01 PM   #38
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Okay, I'm officially confused!

If there is no NH regulation regarding a situation (any situation, pick one) within NH inland waterways not addressed by NH regulation, then COLREGS do NOT apply?

I understand NH is unique, and it has inland rules that baffle most boaters from other parts of the country and even New England. The NH Seacoast has to follow the same COLREG rules as everyone else, that further confuses the situation.

If there is no rule for a particular situation in the regulation of inland wateways in NH, then are you saying COLREGS don't apply to those inland waterways? Huh?

(edit to clarify my question)

Last edited by Airwaves; 09-21-2006 at 07:32 PM.
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Old 09-21-2006, 07:26 PM   #39
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Default No need to be confused....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airwaves
Okay, I'm officially confused!

If there is no NH regulation regarding a situation (any situation, pick one) within NH inland waterways not addressed by NH regulation, then COLREGS do NOT apply?

I understand NH is unique, and it has inland rules that baffle most boaters from other parts of the country. However the seacoast NH has to follow the same rules there as everyone else.

If there is no rule for a particular situation in the regulations of inland wateways in NH, then are you saying COLREGS don't apply to those inland waterways? Huh?

Please give me an example.
Let's see

COLREGS by definition applies to the high seas and those waterways connecting to same (with exceptions to the Great Lakes area as an example). COLREGS regulate federally controlled waters, Lake Winnipesaukee is not a federally regulated waterway. The tidal areas of the seacoast by federal definition are federal waterways and applicable COLREGS, State & local regulations apply.

A State can choose to apply COLREG regulations to their inland waterways if their legislative body so desires. In New Hampshire the State's lawmakers have picked and chosen only particular portions of federal regulations while adding other regulations unique to New Hampshire.

Let's put it another way. Cite me one example where a NH boater, operating within the State's inland waterways, has committed a COLREGS violation not currently covered by NH RSA's and been prosecuted for same.

It can't happen. NH law enforcement officials enforce NH RSAs, not federal COLREG regulations. The Coast Guard only patrols inland waters (excluding the Coast) at the invitation of State authorities.

If you are boating on Lake Winnipesaukee you will only be held to regulations found in NH RSAs or the Safety Department's applicable Administrative Rules section.

Be glad to discuss this further anytime off-line!

Hope this helped,


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Old 09-21-2006, 07:50 PM   #40
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Okay, we'll discuss this off line, but I just want to ask. The Mount and her sister boats don't have to be approved by the USCG re: meeting USCG safety requirements and having a qualified crew?

Are you saying that the US Coast Guard has no jusidiction on Lake Winnipesaukee? That Winnipesaukee is not a navigabe waterway? So perhaps the Coast Guard should not give funding or other support to other than Seacoast efforts?

I recall hearing from a number of folks who live on Winnipesaukee Islands complaining about the new Marine Patrol "Battle Cruiser"! It's only a 41' outdated utility boat from the Coast Guard! But wait, you don't need or want it! Let me konw I can have it transferred to any number of communities outside NH that would love it!

If perhaps the President or Vice President were to take a cruise on the mount (as has happened in the past) and the Coast Guard decided to put a Defender Class vessel or two in the water, that I would not be obligated to stop and be boarded if they ordered me to do so becaue they don't have jurisdiction?

You can have it one way or the other. NH is a state in the union or an independent country.

I obey the COLREGS and laws of the state I am boating in, if there is a confict I err on the side of the COLREgS. Do it right and no one can call you wrong.
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Old 09-21-2006, 08:03 PM   #41
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Default Exceptions to the rule....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airwaves
Okay, we'll discuss this off line, but I just want to ask. The Mount and her sister boats don't have to be approved by the USCG re: meeting USCG safety requirements and having a qualified crew?

Are you saying that the US Coast Guard has no jusidiction on Lake Winnipesaukee?

If perhaps the President or Vice President were to take a cruise on the mount (as has happened in the past) and the Coast Guard decided to put a Defender Class vessel or two in the water, that I would not be obligated to stop and be boarded if they ordered me to do so?

You can have it one way or the other. NH is a state in the union or an independent country. I obey the COLREGS and laws of the state I am boating in, if there is a confict I err on the side of the COLRGES. Do it right and no one can call you wrong.
Of course the USCG has jurisdiction in some of the cases you cite, just as the FBI, Secret Service, Customs, Immigtration etc. have limited jurisdiction within the State. But the example you cite falls outside of the scope of the discussion, which is the applicability of COLREGS to Lake Winnipesaukee. You are comparing apples to oranges here.

Let's see if I can put it to bed by using a final example. As Misty Blue has aptly pointed out in the past, current NH boating regulations on occasion conflict with certain inland COLREG regulations. Aptly, that is part of the discussion of this particular thread. If indeed Lake winnipesaukee was subject to COLREG regulations, then there would be no conflict with NH law as Federal law would supercede NH regulations.

Any regular boater of NH (inland non-federal) waters knows that this is not the case, and individuals on Lake Winnipesaukee must abide by the current NH RSA, and not the conflicting COLREG regulation. Regardless of what COLREGs says, if you violate the NH RSA you will be prosecuted for that particular RSA.

If indeed COLREGS applied, that would not be the case.

Remember, we are talking about two things here. Federal inland (tidal waters connectiong to the high seas & the Great Lakes exceptions) versus State inland waterways not falling under federal jurisdiction, like our beloved Lake Winnipesaukee. You can't use the term "inland waters" and apply it to both cases here, there is distinct and dramatic legal differences.

Anyway, that's my $.02, hope this final explanation cleared up any lingering doubts.

If not, as always, please contact the fine folks at the NHMP for further clarification!

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Old 09-21-2006, 08:23 PM   #42
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Okay, I'll leave it at this.

It has always been my understanding that federal law supersedes state law, and that state law supersedes local ordinance. (District Court, Superiror Court, State Supreme Court, Federal Court...etc)

Given that formula, I don't see how NH RSA supersedes Federal Law that has adopted COLREGS.

Hopefully neither of us will be stopped for a violaton!

edit: or

If Federal regualtions are lax, such as with an anchor, I go with whatever regulation is the most stringent! Federal regs, no anchor, State regs, anchor required! So, an anchor is required!
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Old 09-21-2006, 10:20 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airwaves

...You can have it one way or the other. NH is a state in the union or an independent country...
Actually we've been having it both ways for over 200 years. In many ways states are independent countries. Only in a few areas have the states given their rights to the federal government. This isn't one of them.
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Old 09-21-2006, 10:45 PM   #44
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Never mind.

So, I am to do adhere to what law?

A local law, a state law, a national law or an international law?

answer here______________
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Old 09-22-2006, 05:21 AM   #45
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Wink C'mon now, be a good vassal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airwaves
Never mind.

So, I am to do adhere to what law?

A local law, a state law, a national law or an international law?

answer here______________
The broad answer is: YES

Out on the lake the answer is state law and local (town) laws. If you find that these are in conflict you can;

a) Hire lawyer to figure it out and then try to beat some common-sense into the legislature's heads. When this fails ...

b) Get a bunch of $$ and spend it on a publicity blitz to embarrass one body or the other to change their law. When this fails ...

c) Drink heavily. This won't change anything but at least when you wake up with a headache, it'll be for a good reason !
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Old 09-22-2006, 05:55 AM   #46
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Post USCG OUPV license vs. NHMP commercial license

I promise, the final example of federal versus state authority.

Many of us discussed at length the differences (and our opinion on same) of the USCG OUPV (six-pack) versus the State of New Hampshire's Commercial Boating License as issued by the NHMP.

If I open a tour boat business here on the tidal waters of the New Hampshire seacoast, I must at a minimum obtain the federally mandated USCG OUPV license,

Why?

Because the tidal waters I am on, even though well within the boundaries of the State, are by definition federal waters, subject to federal requirements.

Now, if I move that same business to Lake Winnipesaukee, I can throw that USCG OUPV license overboard because all that is now required is the Commercial License issued after testing by the NHMP.

Why?

Because Lake Winnipesaukee is owned & controlled by the State of New Hampshire and is not by law or definition a federally designated waterway. The USCG regulations have not been adopted by the legislative body of the State, therefore I must adhere to New Hamsphire State (RSA & Administrative Rules) law.

It is exact same reason that unless the particular COLREG regulation is codified by a New Hampshire RSA or Administrative Rule, it does not apply on Lake Winnipesaukee.

Sorry Don for dragging this on.....I am 10-2 and 10-79 on this particular subject!

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Old 09-22-2006, 09:38 AM   #47
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Wow, this thread has become interesting.

Skip and Airwaves, Thanks for creating and continuing an interesting and educational debate. I don't think either of you needs to be sorry for making the thread big. If all the threads on the forum were short and dull, no one would read them.
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Old 09-22-2006, 11:02 AM   #48
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip
Sorry Don for dragging this on.....I am 10-2 and 10-79 on this particular subject!

Skip
Just don't go 10-54S over it!
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Old 09-22-2006, 11:26 AM   #49
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Default Thank You All

I really appreciate all the (well almost all ) replies.

Best thing about this forum is the thoughtful replies to questions.

Thx SteveA
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Old 09-22-2006, 04:30 PM   #50
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Final answer Mee-N-Mac (C) !
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Old 09-25-2006, 07:43 AM   #51
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Default not settled

So what do we do? Imagine Thruways and side streets and ignore the starboard quarter law. That would work if we were sure about which ones are thruways (Channels ) I mean if we agree here, at least I won't be hit by anyone on the Forum.
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Old 09-25-2006, 11:02 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finder
So what do we do? Imagine Thruways and side streets and ignore the starboard quarter law. That would work if we were sure about which ones are thruways (Channels ) I mean if we agree here, at least I won't be hit by anyone on the Forum.
Here's how I see it:

If someone is off your starboard bow and is on a collision course, you have no choice but to give way.

If you are off someone's starboard bow, do not deliberately put yourself on a collision course by changing speed or heading.
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Old 09-25-2006, 11:53 AM   #53
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Default You see it right Dave!

DaveR

Even if you are the "stand on" vessel it is not just a good idea, it's the law that you take action to avoid a collision.

This is spelled out in NH rule 270-D:2(V).

If you were on that nasty water on the ocean the same applies per Colregs Rule # 17 (B).

Here's a hint... When you are the give way vessel when it is safe to do so (all clear) it is better to change course than change speed. A change of course is easier to see from the stand on vessel than a change in speed. A turn of more than 30 degrees is good. It's kind of like when you are at an intersection and make eye contact with the other driver.

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Old 09-25-2006, 01:37 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Misty Blue
DaveR

Even if you are the "stand on" vessel it is not just a good idea, it's the law that you take action to avoid a collision.

This is spelled out in NH rule 270-D:2(V).

If you were on that nasty water on the ocean the same applies per Colregs Rule # 17 (B).

Here's a hint... When you are the give way vessel when it is safe to do so (all clear) it is better to change course than change speed. A change of course is easier to see from the stand on vessel than a change in speed. A turn of more than 30 degrees is good. It's kind of like when you are at an intersection and make eye contact with the other driver.

Misty Blue
I am aware of the requirement for the stand on vessel to maintain speed and heading if possible, and also to avoid a collision. I just wanted to put it as simply as possible.

I almost always change course rather than speed. I make it a point to head directly toward the stand-on boat when I change course, and then hold that heading for a few seconds until I'm headed well behind the stand on vessel. This makes the change quite obvious. I get a lot of friendly waves, so I'm pretty sure it works.
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Old 09-25-2006, 09:54 PM   #55
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Fortunately, everyone seems to agree that we need to avoid getting too close on a collision course.

Of course that being said, we still need to be defensive drivers (pilots or captains) to avoid those boaters who will press their "right of way" right up to the point of impact !

Dave, heading towards the stand on is great way to gain separation. In a prior life, I was an air traffic controller, and that was pretty standard to get planes lined up, or simply let one plane safely pass another. Always easier to pass behind.
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Old 09-26-2006, 07:23 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upthesaukee
Dave, heading towards the stand on is great way to gain separation. In a prior life, I was an air traffic controller, and that was pretty standard to get planes lined up, or simply let one plane safely pass another. Always easier to pass behind.
I just do it because it's easy and requires little thought. It's also easy to explain. I let someone else operate my boat last time out and his first instinct was to back down on the throttle in a give-way situation. Tried to teach him to change course instead, where practical. Much safer for the guests on board, much easier for the stand on boat to see, and easier on gas.
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