Ethanol in Gas

NonVoting Taxpayer · 08-16-2006, 09:01 AM

Does anyone know whether the new gas with ethanol does damage to the engine in the boats. I have heard rumors that the ethanol dries out the rings and over a short period of time will dry them out to the point they will need to be replaced.
I have also heard that ethanol reacts with plastic gas tanks and small pieces of plastic could clog the fuel filters. The metal gas tanks are OK.
I hope these rumors are not true but I did heard this from a boat mechanic back in Mass.

SteveA · 08-16-2006, 09:34 AM

NVT

Check this tread...

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ead.php?t=3484

I fuel my pontoon with gas cans... and most of the local gas doesn't have ethanol.

SteveA

codeman671 · 08-16-2006, 10:51 AM

It has been recommended that you do not keep more fuel in your boat than you can use in a week or two. Todays fuel does not store well and will start to break down within a week or two. This information came as a recommendation from a trusted marine surveyor (my father- at least I better be able to trust him

). He has attended conferences in which this has been a topic of discussion.

Mink Islander · 08-16-2006, 12:16 PM

First, I will admit, I am no expert on this topic, haven't had a chemistry class since high school, but I have been Googling around since my old Whaler has a fiberglass tank (until this weekend!). I haven't seen anything that says that the typical plastic tanks are affected by the ethanol blend, but there are a number of sources saying that fiberglass tanks -- especially older ones, are made with resins that break down when exposed to ethanol and therefore can do serious damage to your engine. For $200, I think it's worth switching to a plastic tank, no?

On the subject of fuel stability, I've attached this interesting link:

http://www.epa.gov/OMS/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf

The crux of the memo is that your biggest risk with an ethanol blend is phase separation (now I'm really going over my head), where the ethanol separates from the gasoline. That can happen when (a lot) of water gets introduced into the gas. Ethanol is infinitely soluble in water and water is heavier than gasoline -- consequence: the water can pull the ethanol out of the gas and sink to the bottom where your fuel line then draws in not water (which would just stall the engine), but an ethanol enriched water mix that can seriously damage the engine (very lean, negatively rx's with oil lubricants in the engine etc). According to this memo, such phase separation requires a relatively high amount of water in the gas -- more than what typical condensation or humidity might contribute.

I've seen commentary elsewhere that the ethanol will separate over time on its own. Not sure that's the case, but I'm sure someone out there has knowledge (or at least an opinion!) about that.

Didn't read anything the states that the "shelf life" is less for an ethanol blend than the MTBE gas but could well be the case. It really sounds like the moral to the story is to be very sure you don't let a lot of water get into your gas. My thought is the marinas should be doing a brisk business in installing water separators between the tank and engine.

Now the petro chemists can correct any errors I've made....

John A. Birdsall · 08-16-2006, 02:05 PM

For what I see on the lake, unless you have under a 30 HP motor I do not think anybody will be in trouble. I see the cigerette boats going by, and that is not water spray going out the back, that's the gas being taken thru. In order for gas to become a problem it must sit idol for a longer period of time. So put in the gas, open the throttle and watch the gas guage, It actually heads for empty every time.

Silver Duck · 08-16-2006, 07:23 PM

For those who want a bit of a reprieve from the ethanol situation

, not all marinas on the lake are pumping the ethanol/gas mixture yet.

I've discussed this with the management at my marina, Shep Brown's, and was told that they will not be selling E-10 gas for at least the balance of this season.

From articles that I've read, that could be quite significant when topping off your tanks before pulling the boat for winter storage.

P.S. - I've also read that your tanks should be pretty low before swapping from one kind of gas to the other....

Silver Duck

Aquadeziac · 08-16-2006, 07:29 PM

From what I understand pumps are supposed to be marked accordingly if they have blended fuel. I have looked on every pump when I fill up and Sam's Club in Concord is the only one I have seen marked "Blended 10% Ethenol". I also understood that the Southern Counties of the state were the only ones required to have oxygenated gasoline to satisfy the Fed's EPA standards.

Skip · 08-16-2006, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquadeziac

...From what I understand pumps are supposed to be marked accordingly if they have blended fuel...

You are exactly correct!

As with MTBE that preceded it, pumps utilzing the 10% ethanol blend are clearly marked. Here in Strafford & Rockingham counties (southeastern NH) all pumps now display the ethanol sticker. But when I cross the line into Carroll County, the first station you come to on Route 16 (the Irving in Union) and all stations I have frequented north still carry "straight" gas.

Since "straight" gas retails about a dime or so cheaper than the ethanol blend, there have been several news stories here about motorists venturing over the county line to get the "straight" gas, causing headaches for local stations on the wrong side of the county line.

Several reports (one from Channel 9) state that it is only a matter of time, once prices of ethanol stabilize, that the blend will infiltrate most if not all of the State.

I'll keep buying the "straight" gas as long as I can!

Skip

Airwaves · 08-16-2006, 09:04 PM

Has the 10% Ethanol blend made its way to marinas on Winni yet?

I read somewhere on the forum that the northern counties would be exempted but I'm not sure how far south that would be on the lake, or even if 10% ethanol is being sold by any marina on the lake yet.

LIforrelaxin · 08-16-2006, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Has the 10% Ethanol blend made its way to marinas on Winni yet?

Well I have fueled at Anchor, 19 mile, and Melvin Village and have not seen an ethanol sign yet......

Kamper · 08-17-2006, 08:09 AM

This question has come up repeatedly in another forum I subscribe too, "The Hull Truth." This is a summary of what I have read here, and there. Not everyone who contributes to the internet is an expert so anything that follows that doesnt agree with what you have heard elsewhere may be a point for further research. Also, after about the 20th post on the subject I stopped reading them because I had all the info I needed so I may have missed something.

Gasahol was introduced in the early to mid '80s and and various tax incentives were provided to marketers. Not all engine manufacturers used hoses and other fuel system components that could withstand alchohol (made them mushy and weak) and many folks avoided the product to be safe.

Since then, non-alchohol rated materials have been phased out. Factories have been made aware of the eventual transition to gasahol on a wide-scale and have made the change-over a long time ago. It is probably still available but for inventory purposes, parts stores will not normally carry it. Many fuel line products will be printed "alchohol resistant" and if it isnt, you can ask the store to verify it by checking the part number (also frequently printed on the hose) in their catalog.

The research can also be done for other components. Many manufactures only build resistant materials and certify their entire product line to be up to spec but it never hurts to ask when you replace older parts.

You should not have a problem with plastic tanks. Metal tanks (and component surfaces) may have aquired a layer of 'varnish' which ethanol will wash off and move further down the fuel stream so you might want to run your engine for a while on the new fuel to keep this from settling in jets or injectors. Fuel-system cleaning additives will probably help with this problem too.

The biggest risk seems to be fiber-glass tanks. Alchohol may disolve gel-coat and this material may settle down-stream. If it accumulates enough to totally block a jet or injector this may require a mechanic's attention to repair or replace affected components.

I have read many recomendations by other boat owners, to carry spare filter elements in case any gunk is released from the tank wall by the cleaning affect of the ethanol. If you're mechanicaly inclined an electircal fuel pump can recirculate your fuel through the filter and "polish" the tank. For smaller boats the same result can be achieved with a filter on a siphon hose, gravity and a clean fuel can. Obviously this will take more patience.

There is no way to remove ethanol from gasoline without a major investment in refinery type equipment. It probably wont be long before someone tries to sell some scam to do this. It will be amusing to read the product desciption though.

Good luck!

Airwaves · 08-17-2006, 05:38 PM

Today I had to visit my local marine supply store (small, independently owned and operated, not a chain) and while I was there I asked the woman (with decades of boating experience) about ethanol and winterizing boats.

Since all we have in my neck of the woods is 10% Ethanol gasoline...well to say I am somewhat concerned about water mixing with the gasoline is an understatement. (I have an older boat that I keep down here, but she has an alumminum inboard tank)

She told me that with 10% Ethanol Gasoline, you either treat your boat's tank with non-alcohol/non-methanol based stabilizer and leave it full, or you have to completely empty your boat's tank for the winter.

Anyone else have similar or conflicting advice?

Rocky · 10-16-2006, 08:21 AM

I believe that after January 1st the marinas have to switch over to ethanol.

Phantom · 10-16-2006, 09:27 AM

I mentioned this in another thread --

I stopped and asked our Marina Service Mgr (Channel Marine) basicly the same question -- as Silver Duck confirms from Shep's -- I was told that there are NO marina's on the Lake pumping Ethenol at this time -- So winterization is the same as usual. Next year will be a different story and their recommendations will be to replace the water filter routinely among a list of other steps.

As my boat has seen a split season (1/2 here in Ma - with Ethenol) I'm having the water seperator replaced as a precaution -- the tank stays at whatever level (in my case 3/4 full) -- as the last 8 weeks of the season the boat has been up at Winni

Dave R · 10-16-2006, 01:11 PM

Seaworthy Magazine says to fill the tank(s) to 95% with stabilized ethanol blended fuel for the Winter. That's what I have done.

08-16-2006, 09:01 AM	#1
NonVoting Taxpayer Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 98 Thanks: 3 Thanked 24 Times in 10 Posts	Ethanol in Gas Does anyone know whether the new gas with ethanol does damage to the engine in the boats. I have heard rumors that the ethanol dries out the rings and over a short period of time will dry them out to the point they will need to be replaced. I have also heard that ethanol reacts with plastic gas tanks and small pieces of plastic could clog the fuel filters. The metal gas tanks are OK. I hope these rumors are not true but I did heard this from a boat mechanic back in Mass.

08-16-2006, 09:34 AM	#2
SteveA Deceased Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Gilford, NH Posts: 2,311 Thanks: 1,070 Thanked 2,054 Times in 497 Posts	another thread that covers Gas NVT Check this tread... http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ead.php?t=3484 I fuel my pontoon with gas cans... and most of the local gas doesn't have ethanol. SteveA __________________ "Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry he'll be a mile away and barefoot!" unknown

08-16-2006, 12:16 PM	#4
Mink Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 753 Thanks: 59 Thanked 271 Times in 129 Posts	EPA Ethanol Study First, I will admit, I am no expert on this topic, haven't had a chemistry class since high school, but I have been Googling around since my old Whaler has a fiberglass tank (until this weekend!). I haven't seen anything that says that the typical plastic tanks are affected by the ethanol blend, but there are a number of sources saying that fiberglass tanks -- especially older ones, are made with resins that break down when exposed to ethanol and therefore can do serious damage to your engine. For $200, I think it's worth switching to a plastic tank, no? On the subject of fuel stability, I've attached this interesting link: http://www.epa.gov/OMS/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf The crux of the memo is that your biggest risk with an ethanol blend is phase separation (now I'm really going over my head), where the ethanol separates from the gasoline. That can happen when (a lot) of water gets introduced into the gas. Ethanol is infinitely soluble in water and water is heavier than gasoline -- consequence: the water can pull the ethanol out of the gas and sink to the bottom where your fuel line then draws in not water (which would just stall the engine), but an ethanol enriched water mix that can seriously damage the engine (very lean, negatively rx's with oil lubricants in the engine etc). According to this memo, such phase separation requires a relatively high amount of water in the gas -- more than what typical condensation or humidity might contribute. I've seen commentary elsewhere that the ethanol will separate over time on its own. Not sure that's the case, but I'm sure someone out there has knowledge (or at least an opinion!) about that. Didn't read anything the states that the "shelf life" is less for an ethanol blend than the MTBE gas but could well be the case. It really sounds like the moral to the story is to be very sure you don't let a lot of water get into your gas. My thought is the marinas should be doing a brisk business in installing water separators between the tank and engine. Now the petro chemists can correct any errors I've made....

08-16-2006, 02:05 PM	#5
John A. Birdsall Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Norwich, CT Posts: 599 Thanks: 27 Thanked 51 Times in 35 Posts	ethaol and stability For what I see on the lake, unless you have under a 30 HP motor I do not think anybody will be in trouble. I see the cigerette boats going by, and that is not water spray going out the back, that's the gas being taken thru. In order for gas to become a problem it must sit idol for a longer period of time. So put in the gas, open the throttle and watch the gas guage, It actually heads for empty every time.

08-16-2006, 07:29 PM	#7
Aquadeziac Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Concord NH Posts: 239 Thanks: 19 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Marked Pumps From what I understand pumps are supposed to be marked accordingly if they have blended fuel. I have looked on every pump when I fill up and Sam's Club in Concord is the only one I have seen marked "Blended 10% Ethenol". I also understood that the Southern Counties of the state were the only ones required to have oxygenated gasoline to satisfy the Fed's EPA standards. __________________ "He who dies with the most toys wins"

08-16-2006, 10:51 AM	#3
codeman671 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,360 Thanks: 210 Thanked 764 Times in 448 Posts	It has been recommended that you do not keep more fuel in your boat than you can use in a week or two. Todays fuel does not store well and will start to break down within a week or two. This information came as a recommendation from a trusted marine surveyor (my father- at least I better be able to trust him ). He has attended conferences in which this has been a topic of discussion.

08-16-2006, 07:23 PM	#6
Silver Duck Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Billerica, MA Posts: 364 Thanks: 40 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	For those who want a bit of a reprieve from the ethanol situation , not all marinas on the lake are pumping the ethanol/gas mixture yet. I've discussed this with the management at my marina, Shep Brown's, and was told that they will not be selling E-10 gas for at least the balance of this season. From articles that I've read, that could be quite significant when topping off your tanks before pulling the boat for winter storage. P.S. - I've also read that your tanks should be pretty low before swapping from one kind of gas to the other.... Silver Duck

08-16-2006, 09:04 PM	#9
Airwaves Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: I'm right here! Posts: 1,153 Thanks: 9 Thanked 102 Times in 37 Posts	Has the 10% Ethanol blend made its way to marinas on Winni yet? I read somewhere on the forum that the northern counties would be exempted but I'm not sure how far south that would be on the lake, or even if 10% ethanol is being sold by any marina on the lake yet.

08-17-2006, 08:09 AM	#11
Kamper Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Thornton's Ferry Posts: 1,296 Thanks: 67 Thanked 166 Times in 126 Posts	This question has come up repeatedly in another forum I subscribe too, "The Hull Truth." This is a summary of what I have read here, and there. Not everyone who contributes to the internet is an expert so anything that follows that doesnt agree with what you have heard elsewhere may be a point for further research. Also, after about the 20th post on the subject I stopped reading them because I had all the info I needed so I may have missed something. Gasahol was introduced in the early to mid '80s and and various tax incentives were provided to marketers. Not all engine manufacturers used hoses and other fuel system components that could withstand alchohol (made them mushy and weak) and many folks avoided the product to be safe. Since then, non-alchohol rated materials have been phased out. Factories have been made aware of the eventual transition to gasahol on a wide-scale and have made the change-over a long time ago. It is probably still available but for inventory purposes, parts stores will not normally carry it. Many fuel line products will be printed "alchohol resistant" and if it isnt, you can ask the store to verify it by checking the part number (also frequently printed on the hose) in their catalog. The research can also be done for other components. Many manufactures only build resistant materials and certify their entire product line to be up to spec but it never hurts to ask when you replace older parts. You should not have a problem with plastic tanks. Metal tanks (and component surfaces) may have aquired a layer of 'varnish' which ethanol will wash off and move further down the fuel stream so you might want to run your engine for a while on the new fuel to keep this from settling in jets or injectors. Fuel-system cleaning additives will probably help with this problem too. The biggest risk seems to be fiber-glass tanks. Alchohol may disolve gel-coat and this material may settle down-stream. If it accumulates enough to totally block a jet or injector this may require a mechanic's attention to repair or replace affected components. I have read many recomendations by other boat owners, to carry spare filter elements in case any gunk is released from the tank wall by the cleaning affect of the ethanol. If you're mechanicaly inclined an electircal fuel pump can recirculate your fuel through the filter and "polish" the tank. For smaller boats the same result can be achieved with a filter on a siphon hose, gravity and a clean fuel can. Obviously this will take more patience. There is no way to remove ethanol from gasoline without a major investment in refinery type equipment. It probably wont be long before someone tries to sell some scam to do this. It will be amusing to read the product desciption though. Good luck!

08-17-2006, 05:38 PM	#12
Airwaves Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: I'm right here! Posts: 1,153 Thanks: 9 Thanked 102 Times in 37 Posts	Today I had to visit my local marine supply store (small, independently owned and operated, not a chain) and while I was there I asked the woman (with decades of boating experience) about ethanol and winterizing boats. Since all we have in my neck of the woods is 10% Ethanol gasoline...well to say I am somewhat concerned about water mixing with the gasoline is an understatement. (I have an older boat that I keep down here, but she has an alumminum inboard tank) She told me that with 10% Ethanol Gasoline, you either treat your boat's tank with *non-alcohol/non-methanol based stabilizer* and leave it full, or you have to completely empty your boat's tank for the winter. Anyone else have similar or conflicting advice?

10-16-2006, 08:21 AM	#13
Rocky Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I believe that after January 1st the marinas have to switch over to ethanol.

10-16-2006, 09:27 AM	#14
Phantom Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Berlin, Ma / Gilford Posts: 1,931 Thanks: 445 Thanked 604 Times in 340 Posts	I mentioned this in another thread -- I stopped and asked our Marina Service Mgr (Channel Marine) basicly the same question -- as Silver Duck confirms from Shep's -- I was told that there are NO marina's on the Lake pumping Ethenol at this time -- So winterization is the same as usual. Next year will be a different story and their recommendations will be to replace the water filter routinely among a list of other steps. As my boat has seen a split season (1/2 here in Ma - with Ethenol) I'm having the water seperator replaced as a precaution -- the tank stays at whatever level (in my case 3/4 full) -- as the last 8 weeks of the season the boat has been up at Winni __________________ *A bad day on the Big Lake (although I've never had one) - Still beats a day at the office!!*

10-16-2006, 01:11 PM	#15
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,974 Thanks: 246 Thanked 736 Times in 438 Posts	Seaworthy Magazine says to fill the tank(s) to 95% with stabilized ethanol blended fuel for the Winter. That's what I have done.