Charts vs. GPS

[TimmyG]

Hello again,

I just bought a chart from the Ships store at Fay's. I am going to buy a GPS/Fishfinder system as well. Can I please get some recommendations/opinions on what everyone likes or dislikes? I definately think a chart is a must whether or not I do get a GPS.

I am going to rum a 24 ft Bayliner that draws 3 feet, or so I am told.

Thanks

TG

[jeffk]

...it somewhat depends on your tastes.

There have been numerous threads discussing this topic.
Here are a few pointers
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ead.php?t=4865
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ighlight=bizer
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ighlight=bizer

Do a forum search for GPS, chart plotter, bizer and see what you get.

You have made a good start, you have a chart. You don't mention what type but Bizer seems to have the best following for Winnipesaukee because of it's presentation and dedication to accuracy.

I boated on the lake with only a chart for 10 years and had no problems. What GPS brings to the table is the ability to absolutely place your position on the map and not have to figure it out for yourself. When does that matter? Mostly at night. The number of islands and twists and turns on the lake, combined with all sorts of lights along the shore can make it very easy to get visually confused at night (sometimes during the day too, I almost wandered into The Witches because I positioned myself incorrectly). GPS largely eliminates that confusion. One other time of limited visibility is in the Fall, in the morning. Really dense fog banks can form and it is almost impossible to navigate until it thins out. Another feature that the GPS can provide is the ability to store a track. You leave from home during the day with the track activated. When you come back at night you simply follow the track back to home. Tracks mapped from actual GPS boat positions are extremely accurate. I also like GPS because it is always immediately available, no fumbling with a chart and I can easily pick up the names of islands and other points of interest.

The next step is which GPS unit? I believe that many will recommend that you want a unit that supports the Bizer CMap chip. The detail provided by Bizer is superior to other lake maps.
Go to the Bizer site (bizer.com) to read more.

If you get a Bizer GPS map you may want a Bizer chart as well since the markings are similar.

I have the Standard Horizon CP180 unit and am very happy with it. Others have Navman systems. These brands seems to come up most often in discussions but Bizer (or CMap) will have the list of systems that support their chips. Bizer has been working to provide support for Garmin but I don't think it's fully available yet.

If you also want fish finder capabilities most brands have that option on some models but others will have to speak to that because I am not a fisherman.

Oh, unfortunately one other consideration. I like the unit I have because the unit can be detached and removed from the boat. I had a radio stolen from my boat over one winter. My radio is now detachable and so is my GPS. Temptation removed.

[Phantom]

Glad this topic came up again -- and I know there are a zillion threads on the topic already.

I was fortunate to be given a Garmin "Nuvi" for my travels, wondering if anyone knows or has used the Bizer chart in that specific model (SDchip). It's the perfect size for our boat (and you too TimmyG).

.............. and yes, as I have sent an inquiry off to Bizer as well -- the forum friends here seem to be typically quicker in responses

[Bear Islander]

I have a GPS but almost never use it. I love gadgets but I think it's best to "get your head out of the cockpit" and use you eyes.

[Dave R]

Another vote for Standard Horizon. I am pretty comfortable navigating by memory and sight on 99% of the lake, and went years without GPS, but I still love the safety and confidence the GPS allows. With nothing more than an occasionally glance at the screen, I can immediately tell if I'm on my charted course/stored track and therefore away from fixed navigational hazards. That allows me to put much more effort into keeping my eye out for dynamic hazards and dangerous situations.

It's not useful on this lake, but another feature of a chartplotter that really shines is the anchor alarm. When I'm asleep at anchor, I leave the gPS running with a preset radius of allowable drift. If I go outside that area, the GPS alarms, letting me know my anchor is no longer doing its job.

[codeman671]

Another vote for Standard Horizon. They also offer the FF520 black box option which adds fish finder capabilities to the same unit. With this setup you get the best GPS IMHO for the lake plus the fish finder you wanted.

I have paper charts but never take them out. There are plenty of places on the lake that we have not ventured, I am sure there are places a paper chart may make more sense but in our travels my setup is dead-on.

[Kamper]

I always carry a current chart. At the least, it comes in handy for planning purposes since you can see a larger area in full detail, all at once.

Remember to update your chip too. The islands and bridges dont move enough to make a diference but there are numerous other details that change over time. Current soft-ware will increase the effectivenss of whatever system you obtain.

I use S/H 150c. It's a little small but works fine.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I have a GPS but almost never use it. I love gadgets but I think it's best to "get your head out of the cockpit" and use you eyes.

Bear Islander --I agree with you completely. My contention has always been learn the "old fashion way" first (by chart & recognition). But, as experianced as I feel on the Lake ...... The GPS (that I use) has certainly come in handy a number of times when I've gotten twisted about at nite!! Something we are completely comfortable doing. It is an added "peace of mind" to truely know your where you think than to hope you are!! I'm sure others would echo that.

[jrc]

I've been talking about buying a GPS for years but I'm always too cheap to do it. Never has a problem just using the paper charts.

Last season I had an "Oh my God" moment at night, and before that I had a "where the hell am I" moment. So I just ordered a Northstart M84. It uses C-map and has the fish finder built-in.

[SIKSUKR]

No doubt on a dark night,trying to navigate through a series of Islands can be very disorientating and gps would be a great help.Daytime my chart is now in my head where it should be but I always carry a paper chart(Bizer is my favorite).

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by TimmyG

Hello again,

I just bought a chart from the Ships store at Fay's. I am going to buy a GPS/Fishfinder system as well. Can I please get some recommendations/opinions on what everyone likes or dislikes? I definately think a chart is a must whether or not I do get a GPS

The Bizer chart and a GPS with the Bizer chip (based on the chart) are the way to go. Last year Fay's did not carry a GPS compatible with the Bizer chip so I got a Standard Horizons GP180i at Irwins. While I am generally happy with the 180i, the menus are not anywhere as user friendly to navigate as my wifes Garmin nuvi gps unit. The 180i unit with the Bizer chip has been very accurate in all observations so far (other than light 26 being mislabeled). My only real performance gripe is the night backlight option. When you go to get it back to normal day viewing, the menu selections do not show-up in the night mode as you move the selection up/down in the list.

[Lakepilot]

We have the Standard Horizons unit with the Bizer chip and like it. We also carry a current chart. I agree the Standard Horizons menus aren't as intuitive as the Garmin in our car. So I leave it in map mode and don't use the other capabilities I know it has.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Slickcraft

My only real performance gripe is the night backlight option. When you go to get it back to normal day viewing, the menu selections do not show-up in the night mode as you move the selection up/down in the list.

Tilt it so that you view the screen from an oblique angle and it'll be easy to see the display in bright light.

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Tilt it so that you view the screen from an oblique angle and it'll be easy to see the display in bright light.

Thanks, I'll try that. However as I recall the menu selection highlighting was not visible even at night when viewing in the night mode.

[froggy]

Title of this thread is Chart VS GPS!!!

It should not be a case of one VS. the other.

Learning Chart navigation is a must. Dead reckoning. Plotting a course. Use of parallel rules, and compass that is fixed on the boat, and calibrated. Pair of decent binoculars. The effects of wind and current on your boat's travel.

Other tools, one is GPS unit, should be considered a supplement.

[Orion]

Originally Posted by froggy

.......The effects of wind and current on your boat's travel.

We're still talking about navigating on the Lake, right?

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by froggy

Title of this thread is Chart VS GPS!!!

It should not be a case of one VS. the other.

Learning Chart navigation is a must. Dead reckoning. Plotting a course. Use of parallel rules, and compass that is fixed on the boat, and calibrated. Pair of decent binoculars. The effects of wind and current on your boat's travel.

Other tools, one is GPS unit, should be considered a supplement.

I would be the first to admit that if I had to venture out on the ocean, or Great Lakes, or similar bodies of water I would be a dead duck. I have none of the chart navigation abilities that you mention. I do keep an eye on my compass headings from time to time. I don't even own a set of parallel rules.

However, on Winnipesaukee, it's overkill. If you need to plot a course, most GPS units allow you to do it without too much fuss and are, for the most part, more accurate than a paper chart. It's also easier to store GPS charts and you can zoom in better.

On the Lake you are never out of sight of the shoreline and even closer to the next marker bouy. You can get from one end of the lake to the other in about an hour. This is very different from being in the Ocean where there are no visual clues and you could be cruising for days away from land.

I think charting for large bodies of water is an essential and interesting skill, however I would be astonished if very many Lake only boaters were familiar with the termininology let alone had the ability to chart a course.

[Phantom]

Jeffk -- what are you talking about

We "Plot / chart our course" almost everytime we go out in the boat at Winni --


Hmmmmm let's see ....... Down to Merideth Town Dock's and Georges for breakfast ... then over to Wolfboro and let the honey do some shopping .... by then a quick trip into Paugus is needed and over to Burger King to feed the screamin kidz ......... off to our favorite sandbar and relax for a couple of hours ....... finally, the long trip (we love those) to Shipley's or Sandy Point for dinner (we'll decide which on the way).

LMAO

Couldn't resist ----- I'll be quiet now

[jeffk]

Phantom,

Do you get your charts from Rube Goldberg or The Family Circus?

[NHDOLFAN]

I just bought a Hummingbird Matrix 767. Does anyone know if they sell a chip with Lake Winni on it? If so, what is the name and is it reliable? Like many others on the site, I always carry my chart and use the GPS as an aid.

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by NHDOLFAN

I just bought a Hummingbird Matrix 767. Does anyone know if they sell a chip with Lake Winni on it? If so, what is the name and is it reliable? Like many others on the site, I always carry my chart and use the GPS as an aid.

There have been many threads here on this subject, suggest a search. The Bizer site has info at:
http://www.bizer.com/jrgps.htm

The chip is in C-MAP format.

[offmycloud]

Ok guys - I just pulled the trigger on the new boat and I need a GPS for it (for night cruises, not the day stuff, I'm not that numb! And, I have kids so safety at night is number one.). From reading the posts on this thread it looks like I should go with the Standard Horizon CP180 with the FF520 fish finder (the kids like fishing). Is this still the way to go? Do I need professional installation on this? Thank you and can't wait to get out there!

[Webbsatwinni]

off,

We bought a Garmin 376c last year and loaded the Bizer Garmin chart and it worked great. I liked the Garmin as it was portable, had really long battery life and an integrated antenna. There was nothing to mount in the boat (unless you want to). But we chose to leave it portable and use it for day trips.

The 276c was cheaper and the only difference is the XM weather tracker. I don't use that function as it is a subscription service.
I found mine at West marine as an end of season deal, it looks like they are now going for around $600 for the 376c and $450 for the 276c.

The screen is small, but it offers various view options and the portability made this the perfect unit for us.

The Bizer chart was great and easy to load. It shows most of the hard copy information. Here is the link to the Bizer garmin page:

http://www.bizer.com/garmin/index.htm


Here is a link to another forum post on the same subject.
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ghlight=garmin

[offmycloud]

Thanks Websatwinni - Garmins seem easier to use than the one I'm looking at. One main reason I like Standard Horizon is the fish finder which my kids will freak over!

[Webbsatwinni]

I saw a fish finder demo on the 376, but I did not buy the transponder. It was nice, but the total cost at the time for the GPS and the transponder was higher than I wanted to go.

It is very easy to use, and is so portable that I just keep it in the glove box in case it gets dark or foggy.

[offmycloud]

Ok - I will check that out. Thank you!

[froggy]

Originally Posted by jeffk

I would be the first to admit that if I had to venture out on the ocean, or Great Lakes, or similar bodies of water I would be a dead duck. I have none of the chart navigation abilities that you mention. I do keep an eye on my compass headings from time to time. I don't even own a set of parallel rules.

However, on Winnipesaukee, it's overkill.
I think charting for large bodies of water is an essential and interesting skill, however I would be astonished if very many Lake only boaters were familiar with the termininology let alone had the ability to chart a course.

Yup, correct. I would not use the parallel rules on Lake. I would often look at chart where I am going and the compass rose, and "guesstimate" the heading, then look at my compass AND and shore points to sight a course.

[rick35]

I bought the XOG to serve dual purpose in my car and boat. I was very interested in the Bizer map for the Garmin Nuvi but I understand that it doesn't work in all models. The XOG takes SD cards including the Navionics Hotmaps charts. I bought it from TigerGPS in New York and the price was one of the best and was delivered promptly. The first unit I bought was just the unit for $250. The day after it arrived TigerGPS offered a bundle including the Hotmaps Handheld card for the same price. I returned the first unit and ordered the bundle. I figured I'd try out the Handheld program and if I didn't like it I'd use it to trade up to the Premium card ($50 upgrade rebate).

I was surprised to find the Handheld version to be very accurate. My son has Hotmaps Premium 2008 for his Humminbird GPS/Fish Finder and I was able to try out both programs in the XOG. When using the Premium card I found that several of the markers around south Bear were either missing or mismarked. All the markers were correct in the Handheld version.

I had a chance to use the XOG a few times last weekend and it works very well at night when you can see the screen clearly. The screen is difficult to see in bright sun so you need to use it in the shade. I'm most interested in using it for night navigation so its not a big deal for me. Marker location was right on everywhere we went.

I thought I'd share my experience in the event someone else is interested in a dual use GPS at a decent price.

Rick

[Airwaves]

It should be your backup, not your primary navigation tool.

A good chart of Winnipesaulee and the knowledge of how to read that chart, is your primary source of navigation.

On Winnipiseaukee you probably don't need parrellel rules or a compass, however no one should ever ever ever rely EXCLUSIVELY on electronics!

**** happens and electronics go out. If that happens and you don't have a chart or know how to read a chart, you are at best screwed, at worst you're going to run aground somewhere, or puncture your hull and sink.

Take the time to learn how to read a chart and keep one on hand.

[rick35]

I agree about having a paper chart and I keep one in the boat. I've also been boating on the lake close to 30 years so I'm comfortable about navigating during the day almost anywhere on the lake without a chart or GPS. For nighttime boating my comfort zone is from Bear Island to Shep Browns, the Weirs or Meredith. Having the GPS gives me the confidence to venture out at night in other directions where I may not otherwise go. We had dinner at the Lyon's Den on Sunday night and if not for the GPS we probably would have just gone into Meredith as we always have.

Rick

[Winnipesaukee]

I don't think anyone has mentioned the DSC feature. Does the original poster have a DSC-equipped VHF radio onboard? If so, your best bet is to probably to get a GPS that is compatible with it.

If not, I'd highly recommend you choose a GPS and then install a compatible DSC-equipped VHF on the boat with it.


What is DSC

[Phantom]

Winnipesaukee --- Why is DSC so important when Marine Patrol has no capabilities to recieve it ???


Just curious

[Kamper]

Originally Posted by Phantom

... Why...? ... Just curious

All new design (fixed installation type) VHF radios will have DSC capabilities with NMEA connectors. The non-DSC radios will disapear after current stocks are exhausted.

They do offer the opportuity for another boater to find you if you need help, or relay your position to a closer boater. If you are sharing a day with friends in another boat, and you have something with "polling" capabilities you can keep track of each other. Or, see where your friends are with that boat you lent them. You can also share the MMSI codes for private conversations or a "party line."

The MP will be getting DCS equipment when their current gear is replaced. The current price for DSC equipment is the same that NON-DSC units went for a few years ago. Hopefully they will also get compatible GPS/Chartplotters to go with it.

I expect imagination will lead to more possible uses for this gear.

And that's all I think I know about that.

[kjbathe]

Originally Posted by rick35

I bought the XOG...

Very interesting. I've seen refurbished Nuvi's for ~$130 delivered and was thinking of trying that with the Bizer chart on SD. But looking at the XOG capabilities and reviews, it's about the same price, but is splashproof as well as being designed for car, trail and water use.

I love the Bizer paper chart, but how does the Navionics compare? Does it have all the rocks and shallows? And does it correctly reflect all the current navaids? Rocks and shallows aren't a big deal if they're missing (I'm thinking GPS as a backup unit for night navigation), but know nothing about Hot Maps, I wondered how it compares.

The XOG at $250 with chart is pretty compelling...

[rick35]

From what I have verified the Hotmaps chart is very accurate. I was surprised that the less expensive Handheld edition had more accurate marker locations than the Premium edition. At least that's what I found in the south end of Meredith Neck near the Cattle Landing.

There is an error in the chart (see below) in that the navigation path passes inside of marker #3. There's another error where Jolly Island is supposed to be. (This must be an old chart - before it broke off from Bear Island!) You'll notice that black markers are a different shape than the red. They probably did this in case the chart was used on a monchrome display.

From what I've found so far every marker was where the chart said it would be. Shallow areas are identified and you can turn on/off the depth soundings depending on your preference. I found it was distracting to have all the depth lines showing.

I really wanted to get a Nuvi and add the Bizer chart but Stewart at Bizer wasn't sure which Nuvis worked with the chart. He said he had feedback from a couple of people that the markers were not in color and that's what turned me off.

Rick

[kjbathe]

That photo looks great -- but missing an entire island? Why did my confidence level in the marker positions just plummet?

[rick35]

Yeah missing an island is weird but its so small I can see where Navionics could have shown it as a projection of Bear Island.

What are the other options? I really liked the Garmin 276c but I was looking at over $700 after buying the unit, the Bizer software and the car software. The Garmin Nuvi would have been my preference but not unless I knew the Bizer software worked in it.

So for $250 I think the XOG is an acceptable solution for my needs.

Rick