Ring the Witches, to make it safer?

Waterbaby · 07-18-2006, 08:06 PM

Does anyone remember, years back, when the Witches were more clearly marked? I believe they were "ringed" by large orange markers or something similar. I don't feel they are very well marked anymore - especially when the water is higher, as it is now - and it's a wonder there have not been more boats landing on them. I know where they are, pretty much no matter which direction I am boating in, but I'm sure there are people out there who may take a different route than usual and don't see the markers until almost on top of them.

(Blame Mee-and-Mac for my coming up with this thread, as it was a reference to "ringing the witches" in another thread that made me think of this one!)

Kamper · 07-18-2006, 09:08 PM

I've only been going to Winnipisaukee since 1994 so I dont remember the Witches being ringed. I have noticed some bouyage being modified. For instance there used to be two black tip spar bouys off Locke and now there is only one.

It may have something to do with more accurate charts being available so folks know what to look for in advance of the cruise.

Myself, I want an adequate amount of navigation aids but I'd prefer it if the lake were not as well marked as a football field. The MP is probably trying to balance the need for safety against smotherring the lake in signs. I think large orange markers would be a real eyesore.

Charlie T · 07-18-2006, 09:27 PM

Kamper wrote, "I think large orange markers would be a real eyesore."

I think a few orange markers would be less of a eyesore than a few boats on the rocks there each year. This is a very heavily traveled area of the lake and with minimal markers certainly one of the most dangerous. I am very familiar with the area yet this year I find myself thinking twice before going over there. Markers are a good thing in dangerous areas.

fatlazyless · 07-18-2006, 09:39 PM

Yes, wasn't there a Sea Ray 32'er from the NASWA which struck the Witches' rocks on a late night cruise, one or two summers ago. Having clearly marked orange buoys most certainly would have prevented that accident. It can be very difficult to see where the Witches have located on any given night.

Kamper · 07-19-2006, 07:33 AM

Orange bouys might have averted a night collision if they were lighted but those folks were probably not referring to a chart anyway and may not have been able to figure out the orange markers meant either.

Airwaves · 07-19-2006, 12:47 PM

I do recall that the Witches were marked better in years past. I don't know if I'd go as far as saying they were "ringed" by bouys.

As for Orange markers. These would be the same Orange bouys that were discussed in the West Alton sandbar thread as being used to mark a rafting zone?

See the problem? You start straying from accepted and legal navigation aids and no one understands the meaning of them.

As far as the NASWA boat running aground a few years ago, if the comment was accurate and it was at night then an Orange ball wouldn't have helped. I recall my father telling me the Mount even ran aground on the Witches years and years ago.

The Witches could probably use a couple more day bouys and maybe a couple more lighted bouys.

Mee-n-Mac · 07-19-2006, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airwaves

I do recall that the Witches were marked better in years past. I don't know if I'd go as far as saying they were "ringed" by bouys.

As for Orange markers. These would be the same Orange bouys that were discussed in the West Alton sandbar thread as being used to mark a rafting zone?

See the problem? You start straying from accepted and legal navigation aids and no one understands the meaning of them.

As far as the NASWA boat running aground a few years ago, if the comment was accurate and it was at night then an Orange ball wouldn't have helped. I recall my father telling me the Mount even ran aground on the Witches years and years ago.

The Witches could probably use a couple more day bouys and maybe a couple more lighted bouys.

The NASWA boat ran aground during the day ... with an NBC film crew aboard for good measure !

They were up for the NASCAR race that weekend and I forget which racers were also aboard. It was the original topic for this thread from ye olde forum. In any case you'd have thought the NASWA people would know the lake well enough to be able to avoid the Witches (which I think is a reasonably well defined hazard). As to whether more markers or bouys are needed ... I think there are a number of extra (beyond the spars at the north and south ends) "Danger rocks" signs around the Witches right now. Someone said there were more bouys back in the 70's but I don't recall them. May have been there, I just don't recall the all of 70's that well

To me it all comes to knowing where you are on the lake and what hazards are around. It can be tough on the newcomers but oldtimers have no good excuse. IMO the area just north of the Graveyard is more poorly marked, and more hazardous, than the Witches are (but then again I don't go up that way that much).

Senter Cove Guy · 07-19-2006, 04:35 PM

The only area north of the Graveyard that is poorly marked (that is to say it is not marked) is the area where Bizer Rock resides.

The MP simply refuses to mark it. It's a nasty rock that appears to be in a large, safe area. If you don't know the area, you better stick to normal boat channels when you're there.

secondcurve · 07-19-2006, 06:08 PM

I hate to admit it, but I busted up a prop (thankfully it was aluminum!) several weeks ago in the Graveyard. I was heading toward the broads and went through a series of 5 (I believe) spar buoys that each have corresponding buoys directly across from them. Well, there are two more buoys beyond where the channel is marked. One is several hundred yards out and you have to stay to the right (west) of it. Unfortunately, there is another red buoy that is between the matched buoys and the final red buoy (Am I making sense?). I forgot about that one and in my haste to move west to go around the final red buoy I veered to the right of the red buoy between the well defined channel and the final buoy. Well I should have been to the left of that one! Fortunately, I wasn't going fast and the damage was minimal. The point of this post is that in my opinion, that channel should be marked on both sides for 6 or 7 buoys as opposed to the 5 that are there. Any thoughts?

Senter Cove Guy · 07-19-2006, 10:06 PM

When heading south through The Graveyard, the bad thing is that when you pass the last set of Graveyard markers you have to be very careful to immediately turn to the west to avoid the upcoming red & white. I've seen many boats fail to do this and a good many of them seem to miss the rocks to the east of the red & white. Unfortunately, you were not so lucky.

I've grown up in this area of the lake and I feel very comfortable navigating here. However, I will say that one day I was engaged in a conversation with a passenger and I almost headed to the west of all The Graveyard markers while heading northbound. That could have been a nasty ending because there is shallow water and boulders out there.

The point is, even if you know an area, you've got to be cognizant of where you are at all times.

jrc · 07-19-2006, 10:28 PM

Why not go east of Melvin Island and FL 11, and just avoid the whole mess. The only time I go through the graveyard is when guests ask to see it. They're usually expecting something more Hollywood, like broken hulls and tattered sails hanging from masts sticking from the water.

jrc · 07-19-2006, 10:36 PM

According to the Bizer chart, there are two orange bouys with flashing lights, five spar bouys and three "Danger Rocks" bouys ringing the Witches. How many more do we need?

It is a little harder to see the Witches from distance while the water is high.

JTA · 07-20-2006, 06:04 AM

When I navigate the lake and see places called "The Witches" and "The Graveyard" something rings a bell and makes me extra cautious. I usually have my chart out and identify every buoy as I proceed. We don't need more markings IMHO.

webmaster · 07-20-2006, 08:23 AM

How about the old lighthouse idea from 2001?

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforu...cgi?read=22396

Mee-n-Mac · 07-20-2006, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by webmaster

How about the old lighthouse idea from 2001!

I say kill 2 birds with 1 stone .... how about a cell phone tower ?

Mind you a big fake pine tree sticking out of the Witches might be a lil discordant to some. Perhaps we could disguise the cell tower as ... a lighthouse !

ps - I like the olde idea of a pile of wrecked boats. Maybe throw in a sea (lake) monster too. MOTH effect for sure

Grant · 07-20-2006, 12:15 PM

Rock Bass are attracted to lighthouses.

gtxrider · 07-20-2006, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

I say kill 2 birds with 1 stone .... how about a cell phone tower ?

Mind you a big fake pine tree sticking out of the Witches might be a lil discordant to some. Perhaps we could disguise the cell tower as ... a lighthouse !

ps - I like the olde idea of a pile of wrecked boats. Maybe throw in a sea (lake) monster too. MOTH effect for sure

But there would be a need for a cable out to the cell tower and someone would drag their anchor across and rip up the cable.

jrc · 07-20-2006, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtxrider

But there would be a need for a cable out to the cell tower and someone would drag their anchor across and rip up the cable.

no cable needed, it's for "wireless" phones

Airwaves · 07-20-2006, 08:05 PM

jrc wrote:

Quote:

The only time I go through the graveyard is when guests ask to see it. They're usually expecting something more Hollywood, like broken hulls and tattered sails hanging from masts sticking from the water.

That would be so cool!
Maybe hang Capt'n Jack Sparrow (Johnny Depp) from a yard arm!

I guess my real question has to do with liability. If I have been told correctly by folks who claim to know, in Massachusetts, if you hit a pothole that has been reported to the state, then you are allowed to file suit to recoup your loses. (Tire, rim ect). If that pothole has not been reported then you are not entitled to any compensasion.

So, My question is along those lines. If folks have reported the location of a rock to the state (Lat & Log) and the state does not mark the rock, are you entitled to seek monetary recourse from the state if you hit it?

I think it's one thing to know that rocks aren't marked because the state is unaware of them, (you're on your own) but quite another if the rocks aren't marked and the state has been notified of them by various boaters on various occasions.

Thoughts?

Waterbaby · 07-22-2006, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Yes, wasn't there a Sea Ray 32'er from the NASWA which struck the Witches' rocks on a late night cruise, one or two summers ago. Having clearly marked orange buoys most certainly would have prevented that accident. It can be very difficult to see where the Witches have located on any given night.

You are partially correct...... it was actually the Makris Sea Ray, i.e. the "NASWA", which hit the Witches. It was, however, in full daylight........

Waterbaby · 07-22-2006, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

The NASWA boat ran aground during the day ... with an NBC film crew aboard for good measure !

They were up for the NASCAR race that weekend and I forget which racers were also aboard. It was the original topic for this thread from ye olde forum. In any case you'd have thought the NASWA people would know the lake well enough to be able to avoid the Witches (which I think is a reasonably well defined hazard). As to whether more markers or bouys are needed ... I think there are a number of extra (beyond the spars at the north and south ends) "Danger rocks" signs around the Witches right now. Someone said there were more bouys back in the 70's but I don't recall them. May have been there, I just don't recall the all of 70's that well

To me it all comes to knowing where you are on the lake and what hazards are around. It can be tough on the newcomers but oldtimers have no good excuse. IMO the area just north of the Graveyard is more poorly marked, and more hazardous, than the Witches are (but then again I don't go up that way that much).

Hi M&M! No racers were aboard, the NASWA was following another boat which had Ryan Newman aboard. Ryan is an avid fisherman, and the NBC crew was filming/narrating Ryan's fishing trip when the filming came to, um, an abrupt halt.

Having not been in the Graveyard area for years and years, I don't know what the markers are around there; I do go around the Witches quite often, however, and think they could be a bit better marked. I agree with your "oldtimers" excuse, in one respect, but occasionally distractions come up and well...... I'm not going any further than that, lol. Thanks for the comment on the W.A. sandbar thread, however, that got me thinking about markers -- I've seen some interesting posts here!

W.B.

Steve Di. · 07-23-2006, 09:22 AM

I usually spot the resident birds on the rocks before I spot the markers when navigating the witches.

Why don't we put flashing lights on the backs of the birds to help with night-time navigation?

Kamper · 07-23-2006, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Di.

...
Why don't we put flashing lights on the backs of the birds to help with night-time navigation?

Tried it. At night all the birds flew off.

Steve Di. · 07-23-2006, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamper

Tried it. At night all the birds flew off.

I hate it when that happens!!!

Mee-n-Mac · 07-24-2006, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Di.

I usually spot the resident birds on the rocks before I spot the markers when navigating the witches.

Why don't we put flashing lights on the backs of the birds to help with night-time navigation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamper

Tried it. At night all the birds flew off.

Maybe we could put Parker Island Fun's swim raft out there ? It seems the birds like it and might stay put.

Or maybe some sharks with frickin lasers on their heads ? Then as they jump about we'll get a kool laser show in addition to new lighted nav-aids ....

But then they might swim away, didn't I see a photo off them up by Pine Island ? Guess we'll have to tether the sharks to the Witches. Now we'll have a real deterent to running aground there !

MAXUM · 07-25-2006, 04:16 PM

If I'm not mistaken the markers on the lake are there as navigational guides and are there to mark hazards, however this is done as a service to the public. The ultimate responsibity falls on the boater, as it should. If you're in an area that you're not familiar with, slow the heck down and proceed with caution... DUH!

Yeah no thanks, the last thing we need here is laws like Mass. No offence but I don't think I have ever seen anything that state has done worthy of duplicating.

Be darn thankful stuff is marked here, geesh try boating out west. Good grief when I lived in Colorado, very little if anything was marked on the lakes out there. You had to know where hazards were depending on the water levels which over the course of a season could vary as much as 50 to 70 feet. One weekend the water looks wide open, then the following weekend you see after the water dropped and the tops of trees or a rock pile you never knew was there and would surely waste your prop or lower unit if hit. Out here you have to be a complete moron to hit a rock. The witches has so many markers around it how the heck can you miss them?

Airwaves · 07-25-2006, 06:34 PM

Golly gee mista im jest a powr unedukated boy frum masachewsets who nevah ment no harm...

i jest wanna no if som won tells thos brite foks in korncord abut some big rock and they don do nothin bout it are they respnseble?

didn mean no misrespek mista

jrc · 07-25-2006, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAXUM

...Out here you have to be a complete moron to hit a rock...

I guess there are a lot of complete morons. Or maybe average people who just have accidents. Or maybe they're in-complete morons.

Rayhunt · 07-25-2006, 09:37 PM

EVERYONE should be reffering to charts on the lake.. Unless you know the area/areas. There are many many more unlit rocks on the lake..Remember the old 4x4 markes ..they left a mark

Kamper · 07-26-2006, 06:33 AM

The state is not liable for injuries caused by natural hazards.

Even non-morons can hit rocks. Distraction and confusion are probabbly not as common as incomptence but they add to the toll for any category of accident. (imo)

Airwaves · 07-27-2006, 05:46 PM

I took a boat out for a shake down cruise yesterday and just for chuckles I went over to the area of the Witches to see for myself what they look like this season.

I know where the Witches are, they have been in view of my family's places at the lake since long before I can remember and I'm pretty sure they haven't moved.

As I rounded the backside of Governor's headed into Saunders Bay I did not sight a single bouy! I didn't even sight the bouy at the end of Governor's Island that has been there for as long as I can remember.

Are they missing? Probably not, but it seems to me that if they can't be seen they are as good as missing.

I know that time and weather play a role in moving and even destroying aides to navigation, that's why the Coast Guard has a Notice to Mariners listing. If similar aides to navigation are destroyed and/or missing on the lake perhaps the state should include a similar "Notice to NH Mariners" on their website.

Oh, there's that funding thing again, adding another unfunded mandate to MP to deal with....oh well.

jrc · 07-27-2006, 07:18 PM

The bouys are there, well at least most of them are, I didn't count. All the spar bouys on the lake seem a little harder to spot this year. I think it's the high water, less of the length is visible above the water line. Get close enough and you will see them.

I'll take some pictures this weekend, just to be sure. As far as I know no one has hit the Witches this year. If the markers were gone, the boats would be piled up.

Airwaves · 07-27-2006, 07:42 PM

As I said, I know where the Aides to Navigation off Governor's Island the around the Witches are, and I didn't see any of them from what I consider a safe distance.

As you said MOST OF THEM ARE THERE, so that suggests that some aren't in their proper location or are missing? Hense my suggestion of a Notice to NH Mariners, that would give Marine Patrol a "cushion" in which to replace the aides. If the Aide to Navigation isn't visible, it's the same as not being there.

If I am looking on my chart and it says there is an Aide to Navigation in a certain area and it isn't there (or isn't visible) I certainly would be confused and then question the accuracy of the chart and if I'm lucky not hit anything while I'm trying to figure it out!

Perhaps it's time for NH to come into the 21st century when it comes to navigational aides and funding for law enforcement. Larger and more visible Aides to Navigation would be the first step.

I know that most folks equate funding for the Marine Patrol with boats and crews on the water (or at least it seems that way) however they also have to fund everything else. Safe boating education, aides to navigation, homeland security, etc. It's not just about increasing wages.

Commodore · 08-03-2006, 08:31 PM

I know where The Witches are but I still have to watch out.
Would more markers hurt? They would only help. I have to look for the channel between The Witches and Timber although I know it is there. I think there is good reason to add more markers around The Witches.

Maybe a few empty Chlorox bottles would help

.

Airwaves · 08-03-2006, 09:04 PM

Chlorox bottles? Nah, just a couple of boats up on the rocks, the bigger the better, and leave them there. AToN aren't visible, maybe a 35' cruiser would be!

Cheaper than installing an maintaining AToNs right? Lawsuit? What lawsuit?

jrc · 08-03-2006, 09:39 PM

In general the NH spar buoys are less visible than they could be. I know NH didn't adopt the normal ATON system at least partially to avoid confusion during the transition. But a compromise might be a larger buoy in the current locations and colors. The cost difference can't be enough to be an issue, so the only issue I can think of is aesthetics.

No one wants this on their waterfront

ApS · 08-04-2006, 04:21 AM

No thanks.

A red spar near me has three different gelcoat colors on it already this season and, if things proceed "normally", there will be seven or eight different colors on it by October. Nobody's struck the neighboring black spar yet.

If Japan can built a jetport runway into 60-feet of ocean, New Hampshire can reclaim part of The Witches for recreation.

A new Winnipesaukee island won't assure that a soused boater can't run aground (e.g., June's Eagle Island adventure), but would fix two problems: visibility and recreation.

SIKSUKR · 08-07-2006, 09:38 AM

I launch at Glendale dozens of times a season so I am someone who's very familiar with the Witches.My typical route is to cross to Timber from Sanders bay so I am right there.Being on a PWC with water in the face,I must constantly scan to locate all the markers and the whole area.I still find it very difficult to see because the markers are so far apart.Sometimes I'm worried that I'm inside one of the markers I have not seen.Definately tricky.

GWC... · 08-10-2006, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

I say kill 2 birds with 1 stone .... how about a cell phone tower ?

Mind you a big fake pine tree sticking out of the Witches might be a lil discordant to some.

How about:

Several Date Palm Style Towers - Global warming folks should approve of a few palm trees in NH

http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarkin...58dbe5b86a.jpg

OR

A few Flag Pole Towers, like the one at Nashua's Skate Park, with a flashing light at the top of each for night navigation.

http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarkin...41ccd5f0df.jpg

itchin for fishin · 08-13-2006, 07:09 PM

This weekend was a great example of why the markers on the witches are inadequate. I had a heck of a time spotting FL28 and FL71 by Timber Island and I know where to look. The water was so rough with white caps and add the additional glare from the sun, even with polarized glasses you cannot see those markers until you are on top of them. Watching other boats around they seemed to slow on approach too looking for markers.

Dave R · 08-14-2006, 10:22 AM

GPS is SOOOOO helpful when visibility is bad. Love my Bizer/C-Map chart and highly recommend it. That said, nothin' wrong with slowing down to get your bearings.

John A. Birdsall · 08-16-2006, 02:18 PM

I think that they should take and make use of the witches by building on them a dunkin dougnuts shop. Land based police always have a place at dunkin dougnuts, why not for our Marine Patrol. Clean up the rocks, build it and they will come. Or you could build a marine court house on it. Get a ticket and go by boat to court.

Grant · 08-16-2006, 02:24 PM

Good idea.

Better yet: Turn the area into the Lake's first Rock Bass Sanctuary.

islandAl · 08-16-2006, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Birdsall

Or you could build a marine court house on it. Get a ticket and go by boat to court.

But what if they seize your boat for payment?

07-18-2006, 08:06 PM	#1
Waterbaby Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Kensington, NH and Paugus Bay Marina Posts: 656 Thanks: 323 Thanked 17 Times in 13 Posts	Ring the Witches, to make it safer? Does anyone remember, years back, when the Witches were more clearly marked? I believe they were "ringed" by large orange markers or something similar. I don't feel they are very well marked anymore - especially when the water is higher, as it is now - and it's a wonder there have not been more boats landing on them. I know where they are, pretty much no matter which direction I am boating in, but I'm sure there are people out there who may take a different route than usual and don't see the markers until almost on top of them. (Blame Mee-and-Mac for my coming up with this thread, as it was a reference to "ringing the witches" in another thread that made me think of this one!)

07-19-2006, 04:35 PM	#8
Senter Cove Guy Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 593 Thanks: 283 Thanked 427 Times in 139 Posts	Bizer Rock The only area north of the Graveyard that is poorly marked (that is to say it is not marked) is the area where Bizer Rock resides. The MP simply refuses to mark it. It's a nasty rock that appears to be in a large, safe area. If you don't know the area, you better stick to normal boat channels when you're there. __________________ Lake Winni - The only place I want to be during the summer.

07-19-2006, 06:08 PM	#9
secondcurve Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,084 Thanks: 1,267 Thanked 557 Times in 286 Posts	The Graveyard I hate to admit it, but I busted up a prop (thankfully it was aluminum!) several weeks ago in the Graveyard. I was heading toward the broads and went through a series of 5 (I believe) spar buoys that each have corresponding buoys directly across from them. Well, there are two more buoys beyond where the channel is marked. One is several hundred yards out and you have to stay to the right (west) of it. Unfortunately, there is another red buoy that is between the matched buoys and the final red buoy (Am I making sense?). I forgot about that one and in my haste to move west to go around the final red buoy I veered to the right of the red buoy between the well defined channel and the final buoy. Well I should have been to the left of that one! Fortunately, I wasn't going fast and the damage was minimal. The point of this post is that in my opinion, that channel should be marked on both sides for 6 or 7 buoys as opposed to the 5 that are there. Any thoughts?

07-19-2006, 10:06 PM	#10
Senter Cove Guy Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 593 Thanks: 283 Thanked 427 Times in 139 Posts	The Graveyard When heading south through The Graveyard, the bad thing is that when you pass the last set of Graveyard markers you have to be very careful to immediately turn to the west to avoid the upcoming red & white. I've seen many boats fail to do this and a good many of them seem to miss the rocks to the east of the red & white. Unfortunately, you were not so lucky. I've grown up in this area of the lake and I feel very comfortable navigating here. However, I will say that one day I was engaged in a conversation with a passenger and I almost headed to the west of all The Graveyard markers while heading northbound. That could have been a nasty ending because there is shallow water and boulders out there. The point is, even if you know an area, you've got to be cognizant of where you are at all times. __________________ Lake Winni - The only place I want to be during the summer.

07-20-2006, 06:04 AM	#13
JTA Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Fort Pierce, Florida Posts: 233 Thanks: 33 Thanked 25 Times in 21 Posts	Careful! When I navigate the lake and see places called "The Witches" and "The Graveyard" something rings a bell and makes me extra cautious. I usually have my chart out and identify every buoy as I proceed. We don't need more markings IMHO.

07-18-2006, 09:08 PM	#2
Kamper Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Thornton's Ferry Posts: 1,296 Thanks: 67 Thanked 166 Times in 126 Posts	I've only been going to Winnipisaukee since 1994 so I dont remember the Witches being ringed. I have noticed some bouyage being modified. For instance there used to be two black tip spar bouys off Locke and now there is only one. It may have something to do with more accurate charts being available so folks know what to look for in advance of the cruise. Myself, I want an adequate amount of navigation aids but I'd prefer it if the lake were not as well marked as a football field. The MP is probably trying to balance the need for safety against smotherring the lake in signs. I think large orange markers would be a real eyesore.

07-18-2006, 09:27 PM	#3
Charlie T Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 303 Thanks: 248 Thanked 178 Times in 84 Posts	Kamper wrote, "I think large orange markers would be a real eyesore." I think a few orange markers would be less of a eyesore than a few boats on the rocks there each year. This is a very heavily traveled area of the lake and with minimal markers certainly one of the most dangerous. I am very familiar with the area yet this year I find myself thinking twice before going over there. Markers are a good thing in dangerous areas.

07-18-2006, 09:39 PM	#4
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,525 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 295 Thanked 957 Times in 698 Posts	Yes, wasn't there a Sea Ray 32'er from the NASWA which struck the Witches' rocks on a late night cruise, one or two summers ago. Having clearly marked orange buoys most certainly would have prevented that accident. It can be very difficult to see where the Witches have located on any given night.

07-19-2006, 07:33 AM	#5
Kamper Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Thornton's Ferry Posts: 1,296 Thanks: 67 Thanked 166 Times in 126 Posts	Orange bouys might have averted a night collision if they were lighted but those folks were probably not referring to a chart anyway and may not have been able to figure out the orange markers meant either.

07-19-2006, 12:47 PM	#6
Airwaves Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: I'm right here! Posts: 1,153 Thanks: 9 Thanked 102 Times in 37 Posts	I do recall that the Witches were marked better in years past. I don't know if I'd go as far as saying they were "ringed" by bouys. As for Orange markers. These would be the same Orange bouys that were discussed in the West Alton sandbar thread as being used to mark a rafting zone? See the problem? You start straying from accepted and legal navigation aids and no one understands the meaning of them. As far as the NASWA boat running aground a few years ago, if the comment was accurate and it was at night then an Orange ball wouldn't have helped. I recall my father telling me the Mount even ran aground on the Witches years and years ago. The Witches could probably use a couple more day bouys and maybe a couple more lighted bouys.

07-19-2006, 10:28 PM	#11
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	Why not go east of Melvin Island and FL 11, and just avoid the whole mess. The only time I go through the graveyard is when guests ask to see it. They're usually expecting something more Hollywood, like broken hulls and tattered sails hanging from masts sticking from the water.

07-19-2006, 10:36 PM	#12
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	According to the Bizer chart, there are two orange bouys with flashing lights, five spar bouys and three "Danger Rocks" bouys ringing the Witches. How many more do we need? It is a little harder to see the Witches from distance while the water is high.

07-20-2006, 08:23 AM	#14
webmaster Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 2,432 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 438 Thanked 3,726 Times in 824 Posts	How about the old lighthouse idea from 2001? http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforu...cgi?read=22396

07-20-2006, 12:15 PM	#16
Grant Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Pennsyltuckey, Tuftonboro, Moultonborough Posts: 1,485 Thanks: 337 Thanked 212 Times in 116 Posts	Rock Bass are attracted to lighthouses. __________________ "When I die, please don't let my wife sell my dive gear for what I told her I paid for it."

07-23-2006, 09:22 AM	#22
Steve Di. Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Wolfeboro, NH Posts: 60 Thanks: 8 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Keep The Birds!!! I usually spot the resident birds on the rocks before I spot the markers when navigating the witches. Why don't we put flashing lights on the backs of the birds to help with night-time navigation?

07-25-2006, 04:16 PM	#26
MAXUM Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Kuna ID Posts: 2,755 Thanks: 246 Thanked 1,942 Times in 802 Posts	If I'm not mistaken the markers on the lake are there as navigational guides and are there to mark hazards, however this is done as a service to the public. The ultimate responsibity falls on the boater, as it should. If you're in an area that you're not familiar with, slow the heck down and proceed with caution... DUH! Yeah no thanks, the last thing we need here is laws like Mass. No offence but I don't think I have ever seen anything that state has done worthy of duplicating. Be darn thankful stuff is marked here, geesh try boating out west. Good grief when I lived in Colorado, very little if anything was marked on the lakes out there. You had to know where hazards were depending on the water levels which over the course of a season could vary as much as 50 to 70 feet. One weekend the water looks wide open, then the following weekend you see after the water dropped and the tops of trees or a rock pile you never knew was there and would surely waste your prop or lower unit if hit. Out here you have to be a complete moron to hit a rock. The witches has so many markers around it how the heck can you miss them?

07-25-2006, 06:34 PM	#27
Airwaves Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: I'm right here! Posts: 1,153 Thanks: 9 Thanked 102 Times in 37 Posts	Golly gee mista im jest a powr unedukated boy frum masachewsets who nevah ment no harm... i jest wanna no if som won tells thos brite foks in korncord abut some big rock and they don do nothin bout it are they respnseble? didn mean no misrespek mista

07-25-2006, 09:37 PM	#29
Rayhunt Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Gilford NH Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Charts EVERYONE should be reffering to charts on the lake.. Unless you know the area/areas. There are many many more unlit rocks on the lake..Remember the old 4x4 markes ..they left a mark

07-26-2006, 06:33 AM	#30
Kamper Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Thornton's Ferry Posts: 1,296 Thanks: 67 Thanked 166 Times in 126 Posts	The state is not liable for injuries caused by natural hazards. Even non-morons can hit rocks. Distraction and confusion are probabbly not as common as incomptence but they add to the toll for any category of accident. (imo)

07-27-2006, 05:46 PM	#31
Airwaves Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: I'm right here! Posts: 1,153 Thanks: 9 Thanked 102 Times in 37 Posts	I took a boat out for a shake down cruise yesterday and just for chuckles I went over to the area of the Witches to see for myself what they look like this season. I know where the Witches are, they have been in view of my family's places at the lake since long before I can remember and I'm pretty sure they haven't moved. As I rounded the backside of Governor's headed into Saunders Bay I did not sight a single bouy! I didn't even sight the bouy at the end of Governor's Island that has been there for as long as I can remember. Are they missing? Probably not, but it seems to me that if they can't be seen they are as good as missing. I know that time and weather play a role in moving and even destroying aides to navigation, that's why the Coast Guard has a Notice to Mariners listing. If similar aides to navigation are destroyed and/or missing on the lake perhaps the state should include a similar "Notice to NH Mariners" on their website. Oh, there's that funding thing again, adding another unfunded mandate to MP to deal with....oh well.

07-27-2006, 07:18 PM	#32
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	The bouys are there, well at least most of them are, I didn't count. All the spar bouys on the lake seem a little harder to spot this year. I think it's the high water, less of the length is visible above the water line. Get close enough and you will see them. I'll take some pictures this weekend, just to be sure. As far as I know no one has hit the Witches this year. If the markers were gone, the boats would be piled up.

07-27-2006, 07:42 PM	#33
Airwaves Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: I'm right here! Posts: 1,153 Thanks: 9 Thanked 102 Times in 37 Posts	As I said, I know where the Aides to Navigation off Governor's Island the around the Witches are, and I didn't see any of them from what I consider a safe distance. As you said MOST OF THEM ARE THERE, so that suggests that some aren't in their proper location or are missing? Hense my suggestion of a Notice to NH Mariners, that would give Marine Patrol a "cushion" in which to replace the aides. If the Aide to Navigation isn't visible, it's the same as not being there. If I am looking on my chart and it says there is an Aide to Navigation in a certain area and it isn't there (or isn't visible) I certainly would be confused and then question the accuracy of the chart and if I'm lucky not hit anything while I'm trying to figure it out! Perhaps it's time for NH to come into the 21st century when it comes to navigational aides and funding for law enforcement. Larger and more visible Aides to Navigation would be the first step. I know that most folks equate funding for the Marine Patrol with boats and crews on the water (or at least it seems that way) however they also have to fund everything else. Safe boating education, aides to navigation, homeland security, etc. It's not just about increasing wages.

08-03-2006, 08:31 PM	#34
Commodore Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 45 Thanks: 8 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	Would more markers hurt? I know where The Witches are but I still have to watch out. Would more markers hurt? They would only help. I have to look for the channel between The Witches and Timber although I know it is there. I think there is good reason to add more markers around The Witches. Maybe a few empty Chlorox bottles would help . __________________ The Commodore

08-03-2006, 09:04 PM	#35
Airwaves Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: I'm right here! Posts: 1,153 Thanks: 9 Thanked 102 Times in 37 Posts	Chlorox bottles? Nah, just a couple of boats up on the rocks, the bigger the better, and leave them there. AToN aren't visible, maybe a 35' cruiser would be! Cheaper than installing an maintaining AToNs right? Lawsuit? What lawsuit?

08-03-2006, 09:39 PM	#36
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	In general the NH spar buoys are less visible than they could be. I know NH didn't adopt the normal ATON system at least partially to avoid confusion during the transition. But a compromise might be a larger buoy in the current locations and colors. The cost difference can't be enough to be an issue, so the only issue I can think of is aesthetics. No one wants this on their waterfront

08-04-2006, 04:21 AM	#37
ApS Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Florida (Sebring & Keys), Wolfeboro Posts: 5,788 Thanks: 2,084 Thanked 742 Times in 532 Posts	Reclaim it No thanks. A red spar near me has three different gelcoat colors on it already this season and, if things proceed "normally", there will be seven or eight different colors on it by October. Nobody's struck the neighboring black spar yet. If Japan can built a jetport runway into 60-feet of ocean, New Hampshire can reclaim part of The Witches for recreation. A new Winnipesaukee island won't assure that a soused boater can't run aground (e.g., June's Eagle Island adventure), but would fix two problems: visibility and recreation. __________________ Every MP who enters Winter Harbor will pass by my porch of 67 years...

08-07-2006, 09:38 AM	#38
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	I launch at Glendale dozens of times a season so I am someone who's very familiar with the Witches.My typical route is to cross to Timber from Sanders bay so I am right there.Being on a PWC with water in the face,I must constantly scan to locate all the markers and the whole area.I still find it very difficult to see because the markers are so far apart.Sometimes I'm worried that I'm inside one of the markers I have not seen.Definately tricky. __________________ SIKSUKR

08-13-2006, 07:09 PM	#40
itchin for fishin Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 105 Thanks: 3 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	Rough water make invisible markers This weekend was a great example of why the markers on the witches are inadequate. I had a heck of a time spotting FL28 and FL71 by Timber Island and I know where to look. The water was so rough with white caps and add the additional glare from the sun, even with polarized glasses you cannot see those markers until you are on top of them. Watching other boats around they seemed to slow on approach too looking for markers.

08-14-2006, 10:22 AM	#41
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,974 Thanks: 246 Thanked 736 Times in 438 Posts	GPS is SOOOOO helpful when visibility is bad. Love my Bizer/C-Map chart and highly recommend it. That said, nothin' wrong with slowing down to get your bearings.

08-16-2006, 02:18 PM	#42
John A. Birdsall Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Norwich, CT Posts: 599 Thanks: 27 Thanked 51 Times in 35 Posts	use for the witches I think that they should take and make use of the witches by building on them a dunkin dougnuts shop. Land based police always have a place at dunkin dougnuts, why not for our Marine Patrol. Clean up the rocks, build it and they will come. Or you could build a marine court house on it. Get a ticket and go by boat to court.

08-16-2006, 02:24 PM	#43
Grant Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Pennsyltuckey, Tuftonboro, Moultonborough Posts: 1,485 Thanks: 337 Thanked 212 Times in 116 Posts	Good idea. Better yet: Turn the area into the Lake's first Rock Bass Sanctuary. __________________ "When I die, please don't let my wife sell my dive gear for what I told her I paid for it."