Stand on Boat Question

Rattlesnake Guy · 08-19-2007, 04:09 PM

In the category of two wrongs don't make a right, RG and I had an unusual one today and are not sure if we were correct or not. We tried to look up the situation in the rules but could not find the combination. We need the collective expertise of the group to rule on this one.

We were traveling about a 100 feet from shore looking at various architectural aspects of lake front homes as many people do. We were at headway speed being within a 150 feet of shore. Land on our left.

We noticed a boat on plane coming straight at us 90 degrees on on the right.

I put my boat in neutral and watched the other boat with keen interest. As the boat broke the 150 foot barrier to us, RG picked up the camera to start documenting the situation. The boat fell off plane at about 75 from us. As the boat passed behind us, the driver and Gal exchanged rule interpretations at an elevated level.

I think the picture taking was not appreciated and we were informed that she was the stand on boat. That we were of very questionable intellect and we should look up the law. RG explained that she needed to maintain 150 feet from our boat. I tried to convey that I was not moving fast.

I admit that I was not paying attention to the boats that were moving quickly around the open water and did not yield to the boat that came to shore just as I was passing her dock. I am not sure how much I could have corrected my path at the speed I was traveling relative to hers.

I know she violated the 150 foot rule but, can someone explain if the "stand on give way rules" are the same if one or both boats are at headway speed?

It would make sense to me that with the precedent of the overtaking boat having to yield to the overtaken boat, a boat on plane should adjust it's course when encountering a boat that is stopped or moving slowly. But I have been wrong more times than I can remember.

Thanks for your judicial rulings.

chipj29 · 08-19-2007, 04:19 PM

Sorry, I have no judicial ruling, but why wouldn't the other operator just slow down a couple seconds later, and go into their dock behind you?

Kamper · 08-19-2007, 04:24 PM

Bad manners aside, I believe they were the stand-on vessel. They key is they were coming in from your right side. If they were overtaking you from either side then you would have been stand-on. Overtaking is coming at you from astern. I think there is some degre of arc that deterines when you are being overtaken Vs aproached from the side but 90degrees is not being overtaken.

Rules of the road apply at any speed. I have even been told they apply if you are just drifiting. The term I was given is "Under weigh, not making weigh."

They should have reduced speed to head-way when within 150ft but that's a different situation. Your friend was correct to take pictures since they were in a public place and he had every right to do so.

Hope your next trip is more enjoyable!

kjbathe · 08-19-2007, 06:26 PM

I'm looking forward to the discussion on this one, too, but I'll give you my opinion. While the boat approaching you at 90 degrees to your right was the stand on vessel, that you were already at headway speed and then in neutral makes the other boat the give-way vessel because... every operator is responsible for taking the necessary action to avoid a collision. There's little more you can do in Neutral other than turn into shore, or back up.

By your description, I think the other operator was just being a puke -- being the stand-on vessel does not exempt the operator from the safe passage rule.

WeirsBeachBoater · 08-19-2007, 06:26 PM

I believe that you were the give way vessel. I do not think speed has anything to do in this case. If they were approaching from your starboard side, you would be the give way and they the stand on.

ITD · 08-19-2007, 07:06 PM

I think the key point here is that you were still moving whether in neutral or not you still had the responsibility to alter your course to avoid a collision. That being said, it sounds as though the other party should have gone to headway speed sooner. I don't agree with the "picture taking" idea to prove one is right. It really proves nothing as it is impossible to judge distance in a photo and in this case it would just prove that you were the give way boat. Worst case, is someone is trying to take a picture and drive the boat, that's just idiotic if you ask me. ( I understand you weren't taking the pictures.)

Kudos to you Rattlesnake Guy for trying to sort this out though, Good Luck.

Rattlesnake Guy · 08-19-2007, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

I believe that you were the give way vessel. I do not think speed has anything to do in this case. If they were approaching from your starboard side, you would be the give way and they the stand on.

I agree with you.......per the deffinition of the terms.

Sincerely not trying to be defensive.

OK, if I concede that I am the give way boat, what should I do. Anticipate the plans of boats approaching me at 25 mph? Back up? Illegally go fast so close to shore to get out of the way? If the person had slowed to headway speed then I would have been out of the way before they would have uneventfully passed behind me. I don't think we have to have any specific distance between us at headway speed. Your answer points out the problem.

I am the give way boat but am at head way speed. If I am traveling at 4mph and she at 25mph, I would have to decide weather or not to move into her way (assuming I knew where she was going) while she is at a distance of over 900 feet from me. I am trying to balance the law with the physics.

I do appreciate any opinions on the subject. Just glad it does not happen very often. I know when I come into my dock and a fishing boat is slowly moving past I don't rush up to it expecting him to get out of the way.

Gavia immer · 08-19-2007, 07:38 PM

According to NH regulations, you are required to stop or reverse to avoid a collision. It's NH shorthand for this Coast Guard rule:

Quote:

Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.

Since you were the give-way boat, you should have already prepared for that circumstance. Since she fell off plane at 175' from shore, she was comfortably right with reference to the shoreline. By "correcting your path", you didn't consider stopping or reversing?

Rattlesnake Guy wrote:

Quote:

I admit that I was not paying attention to the boats that were moving quickly around the open water and did not yield to the boat that came to shore just as I was passing her dock. I am not sure how much I could have corrected my path at the speed I was traveling relative to hers.

jrc · 08-19-2007, 07:44 PM

This is a case of two wrongs make two wrongs

Obviously, the other boat broke the 150' rule. But those offenses don't allow you to break the crossing rule.

270-D:2
...
III. When vessels are crossing courses or approaching each other in an oblique direction which may involve risk of collision, the vessel which has the other on its starboard side shall keep out of the way of the other, allowing the latter vessel to keep its course and speed.

You can't just stop and make them go around you. You have to keep out of their way. That means you may have to speed-up or even reverse to get out of their way.

Now if you make the argument that if they had slowed to headway speed as they were required, then the the crossing situation would have been different... Maybe if they slowed in time you would have been well clear before they arrived.

Winnipesaukee · 08-19-2007, 10:11 PM

In my opinion, he was in the wrong. You were at headway speed as required. He was operating over headway speed within your 300 foot radius.

I am neither a MP or a lawyer nor do I pretend to play one on TV.

The rule on Winnipesaukee: You are ALWAYS the give-way vessel and EVERYONE else is ALWAYS the stand-on vessel.

You can also do what I do: stop the boat, shut off the engine, and step away from the helm. Bingo: vessel not under command. Kidding. Kind of.

I teach sailing on a small lake in MA where the rules are never followed. Whenever out in the motorboat, I always carry my camera and take pictures of the crazies. I'll post them up here sometime.

hazelnut · 08-19-2007, 10:15 PM

Seriously RG you guys were in no way at all in the wrong. Anyone who believes that RG should have altered their actions is out of their minds here. RG was at headway speed!!!! Essentially a boat at headway or idle becomes the obstacle to be avoided meaning the boat on plane has the obligation to avoid coming within 150 feet of the idle/off plane boat. This case is so clear cut and simple I can not believe there is a debate here. RG you were 100% correct and the offending operator was incorrect, ignorant and rude.

andyporter · 08-20-2007, 01:39 AM

Are you sure that was her dock? Or was she dropping someone off? I think by telling her you were filming or taking pictures or whatever you fueled the situation. Now maybe I'm wrong I wasn't there. All I'm saying is no one likes a snitch! Was she coming after you or just showing off. Man if I had I dollar for all the jerks that almost hit me over the years I could buy you property! HA HA!!! And is there a forum where I can bitch about every MASSHOLE car driver that cuts me off? Just sayin' boat safely and love the lake!

Lakegeezer · 08-20-2007, 05:46 AM

Since you were going slow, you could only have altered course to a small degree. I've never heard anything about requiring the stand-off boat to change speed - just direction. No matter what direction you moved in, your movement would not have significantly altered the passage distance between you. All stand-off means (to me at least) is that you are responsible to alter course so that there is at least 150 feet on passage. There are often fishing boats near the shore (or even in traffic lanes such as the graveyard) moving as you describe, and there is no way they are expected to move out of the way quickly. Now - if you are trolling slowly out in the broads and the Mt. Washington is bearing down on you - you might want to remember the "might makes right" rule and get out of the way.

This next comment does not apply to this situation, but is related. There are narrow places on the lake where boats can pass at speed, as long as there is no activity going on near the shoreline which changes the location of the 150 bubble - such as kayaks, fishing boats, swimmers, etc. When there is, the two passing boats must slow down - but of course, often don't. Those along the shoreline that are creating the hazard are fully in their rights to be there - but rules of courtesy suggests that they should be aware of the hazard they are creating - and its impact - and consider moving along - especially if the lake traffic is high.

Dave R · 08-20-2007, 07:10 AM

Since the other vessel was indeed the stand-on vessel, that vessel was required to maintain course and speed (conditions permitting). Since it was approaching shore, we all know that mainatining speed was not possible. That fact makes it very difficult for RG to determine if he was actually on a collision course or not.

That said, the proper thing to do in this situation is to turn hard to starboard and aim directly at the stand-on boat, then maintain that course until the stand-on boat has passed the "150 foot from you" mark. This gives the stand-on boat a strong visual clue that you see them, are giving way, and intend to pass behind them at more than 150 feet. It also puts you on a good heading to hit their wake.

Irrigation Guy · 08-20-2007, 07:48 AM

Having taken the CG Aux course many years ago and being a former ocean boater, I am very aware of the "rules of the road". That being said, I know that the other vessel was the "stand on" vessel. What this reminds me of is a crossing situation I have routinely encountered in the past where a sailboat is involved. This is because RG's boat was traveling at headway speed, a speed similar to that traveled by a sailboat.

All rules aside, the other vessel could easily have chosen to pass behind your stern and the problem is solved. Its a case of common courtesy, and the other vessel chose to stick to the "i have the right of way" attitude.

Another similarity comes to mind when driving in a car. If we are driving along at the speed limit or below in traffic, we don't have to stop or slow to let someone on a side street pull out into traffic because we have the right of way. It is however common courtesy, to do just that, especially if we notice they are having a difficult time doing so. RG's boat could have taken evasive action to stick to the rules even though it would have been difficult and the other vessel had broken one rule already. The courteous thing to do would have been to let RG's boat continue on their way and go behind their stern thus leaving little or no wake to contend with for either vessel, and it could have easily been done. Very few operators of boats these days take into account their wake and what impact on another vessel it will have. If I have the option I will always go behind a boat traveling at headway speed, whether its a fishing boat, sailboat, or just a powerboat enjoy a slow cruise, it's just the right thing to do.

Reminds me of the old and quickly forgotten saying in Mass, "A little courtesy won't kill you".

robmac · 08-20-2007, 08:10 AM

I have always given way to other vessels because who knows at that point weather they actually know the rules. I don't believe RG was at fault in this situation

Rattlesnake Gal · 08-20-2007, 08:34 AM

When I first spotted her boat heading our way, my thought was she was heading toward the island to get shelter from the wind and waves as many boaters do on choppy, windy days like yesterday. When her intentions became apparent we had little time, if at all, to do anything as she was heading toward us so fast. We were traveling at headway speed on a leisurely cruise enjoying the sights of Rattlesnake Island and that was certainly obvious from her vantage point.

As you might imagine, over the years we have yielded to countless boats as we were trying to get to our dock, never once giving thought to the fact that we were the stand-on boat. We call it common courtesy.

My snapping pictures definitely fueled this situation and given the same scenario, I would take them again. I’m not sure that I would put both arms in the air and call that they were within 150’ of us though. I hope that point would be obvious.

Lakegeezer · 08-20-2007, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robmac

I have always given way to other vessels because who knows at that point weather they actually know the rules. I don't believe RG was at fault in this situation

This can be confusing to the stand-off boat who is paying attention and obeying the rules of the seas. Once a stand-off boat realizes its situation, it should set a new intercept course to miss the stand-on boat by at least 150 feet. Anyone who has played video games since the days of pong can do this. The stand-off boat can and should make their intentions more clear by over-correcting and then fine-tuning the course. If the stand-on boat changes course, then the stand-off boat has to recalculate the intercept course. The best course of action if you are the stand-on boat is to maintain course, and take evasive action when (based on distance and speed) it becomes clear that the 150 bubble will be broken. Stand-on boats that start evasive action with 1/4 mile or so separation are just adding to the confusion. There are exceptions to this. If the stand-on boat is forcing a drastic change in course to the stand-off boat, such as into traffic or against the rocks, the stand-on boat may choose to yield way so that the stand-on boat may pass more comfortably.

It all comes down to understanding the situation, being considerate and trusting the other captain. On a lake that is mostly recreational boaters, all three aspects are sometimes lacking. I find though that if I trust the other boater to do the right thing - they usually do - and while I still have to make too many last minute course corrections, there is always time to avoid a collision.

Commodore · 08-20-2007, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

We noticed a boat on plane coming straight at us 90 degrees on on the right.

I put my boat in neutral and watched the other boat with keen interest. As the boat broke the 150 foot barrier to us, RG picked up the camera to start documenting the situation. The boat fell off plane at about 75 from us. As the boat passed behind us,

When I am not sure what to do I slow down or stop.

You were already at fast headway speed to keep control in heavy wind and chop. You say you saw the boat coming at you from 90 degrees and you started to notice them BEFORE they got within 150 feet of you. In my mind I would expect you to keep going because by the time the offender got to where you were you wouldn't be there. Maybe they saw you long before you noticed them. They passed behind you as they might have expected to do. And they probably expected you to keep moving rather than stopping and blocking their way.

It's the straight at you at 90 degrees further out than 150 feet that has me thinking that way.

In any case, both boaters have an obligation to go slow according to conditions and the 150 feet rule.

ApS · 08-20-2007, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Stand-on boat
The vessel that should maintain its course and speed.

Give-way boat
The vessel that must take early and substantial action to avoid collision by stopping, slowing down or changing course.

Courtesy, "NH Boater's Guide".

MJM · 08-20-2007, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ITD

.... I don't agree with the "picture taking" idea to prove one is right. It really proves nothing as it is impossible to judge distance in a photo and in this case it would just prove that you were the give way boat....

I disagree. I think taking pictures is an excellent tactic.
1} The mere presence/sight of the camera will cause most people to think about and correct their actions.
2} Giving thought to foreground (e.g. get some of your own boat in the frame), I believe it’s not a problem to discern a rough distance estimate from a photo. If you’re trying to show someone is 100ft away, maybe not. But if someone is really in violation, say 50ft, a photo would clearly show they are nowhere near 150ft.

Mee-n-Mac · 08-20-2007, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

In the category of two wrongs don't make a right, RG and I had an unusual one today and are not sure if we were correct or not. We tried to look up the situation in the rules but could not find the combination. We need the collective expertise of the group to rule on this one. {snip}

At first glance it apppears you're both in the wrong. The other party should have been at NWS sooner and it sounds like you didn't give way in time. However I'm not clear on one point. You say you put your boat into neutral and that the other boat passed behind you. Were you stopped at any time and did the other boat have to change course to pass behind you ? Ideally, at least as I'm picturing the encounter in my minds eye, you should have noted the approach of the other boat sooner and slowed and/or changed course in time so they could have continued a straightline course unobstructed.

However if you had anticipated them to slow to NWS at the proper point and then projected their resulting course and speed to carry them clearly behind you, I could see some confusion as to what the proper action should be. This said I'm not sure how clear it would have been that any potential collision would have been moot. The point is that you must be "well clear" as the give-way vessel.

We need to see the pictures !

(or perhaps a diagram)

FWIW: Overtaking, as opposed to crossing, happens when your course is more that 112.5 deg off the other guy's course. Or more than 22.5 deg aft of being directly on beam. When your course is an overtaking one, you are the give-way vessel.

islandAl · 08-21-2007, 07:53 AM

Very tough to say without actually seeing the exact situation. But since the other boat passed behind you, your putting it into neutral probably made the situation worse. Had you kept going you may have been well out of the way before they reached 150 ft behind you. The other boater probably was not anticipating your stopping (or slowing down) and therefore came closer than they thought.
Was the other boat headed directly at you, or headed in front of you? If in front (to cross your bow) then you should have changed direction to travel behind the other. Headed directly at you, nudge up the speed a bit to clear the area before they get there.
You had little option beyond that as you are close to shore and can only change direction to close the distance quicker.
They should have slowed before they "broke" the 150 foot zone and common sense says they slow down approaching shore and just motor behind you.

Rattlesnake Guy · 08-21-2007, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

.

We need to see the pictures !

(or perhaps a diagram)

.

Me or Mac,
RG and I went back and took a look at the two pictures she took and then attempted to prepare as honest a drawing as possible. If we have it right, it should convince half of us that I was wrong and half that she was wrong. The other half will think we were both wrong and the rest will think that RGal and RGuy are the same person as we sometimes use the same IP.

In preparing the drawing it does not appear that my switching to neutral had much impact on my forward speed. The inertia and tail wind probably only slowed me for a short time. Once she was behind me, I put the boat back in gear to avoid being an obstacle.

The drawing shows our best reconstruction of the passage in 5 second increments. (Watching way too much CSI) (Next on CSI Wolfeboro….)

If I had it to do over, and fully realized what was happening, I would have reversed or turned to the right. My thoughts were that this was just a 150 foot violation and not a crossing situation. Remember my title (two wrongs).

I must admit that I can’t help but wonder if she had slowed to NWS at my 150 foot boundary, she would have passed uneventfully a 100 feet behind me.

I hope the conversation is at least educational and I thank everyone for the contributions.

GWC... · 08-21-2007, 11:37 AM

Wonder if their ice cream made it to the Island before it melted or was their cottage on fire?

ITD · 08-21-2007, 12:09 PM

This thread reminds me of a little limerick I once heard, don't know who the author is:

Here lay the grave of Micheal O'Day
Who died maintaining his right of way.
His right was clear, his will was strong
But he is just as dead,
As if he were wrong.

Boat safely.

islandAl · 08-21-2007, 12:24 PM

IF ??
1. They had come off plane a little earlier, then pass with never a second thought.
2. You had made hard right to go behind, they still would have had to come off plane earlier.
My bet is that they were focused on the dock and did not notice you (as you did not notice them) until they were in the zone. Now, they must blame someone else for the transgression.

lakershaker · 08-21-2007, 12:28 PM

I have to say, that is a great diagram! I agree with your title - "Two Wrongs." This seems like a situation though that needn't have escalated as much as it seems to have. While you clearly did not have the right of way, it appears from the drawing that the stand on boat should have seen you, and been mildly inconvenienced by about 10 seconds in landing at their dock by slowing earlier and letting you pass. But who knows what was happening in the other boat??? Maybe she was worried about landing in strong wind and had her dander up... Maybe she was distracted by a dog running in the boat and didn't see you... Neither of which are excuses, but I think everyone can relate to a similar situation. As I was recently taught in another thread, the word is empathize... or is it sympathize? Anyway...

Unfortunately, it seems lots of people are not leaving their anger & stress at the dock, and are bringing it with them on the lake. This is manifesting itself by yelling at strangers in situations where nobody intended to cause harm and taking pictures of people with the intent to provoke emotion. I think that these emotions are the root of most of the problems being discussed on this forum, and I hope people can step back, take a deep breath, and say to themselves, "I am on vacation, and it isn't worth the hassel to get all worked up." I know I need to do that too, and my wife reminds me when Capt' Bonehead gets close!

Mee-n-Mac · 08-21-2007, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

RG and I went back and took a look at the two pictures she took and then attempted to prepare as honest a drawing as possible. If we have it right, it should convince half of us that I was wrong and half that she was wrong. The other half will think we were both wrong and the rest will think that RGal and RGuy are the same person as we sometimes use the same IP.

The diagram tends to confirm my guess. Technically you probably should have acted sooner but their intention to dock wasn't obvious*. Given their timing to come off plane was late, it sure appears they would have passed behind you had you done nothing. Still it wouldn't have been obvious at the time. Had I been in the other boat I would have seen you slowly cruising along and timed my arrival to occur after you had passed just so as to avoid any potential conflict. Oh well, all the gel coat is still intact.

FWIW : I had a similar situation coming out of the Wiers during bike week. We were headed out from the Weirs and I, as usual, avoid the Eagle - Governor I channel like the plague. Sadly, now a lot of people do the zig-zag past the Eagle I #3 black marker and Pitchwood. As I approached, there were 4 or so boats coming through the channel (or so I thought) the opposite way and 1 guy in front of me, though coming more from the Spindle Pt direction. I slowed to allow the crowd to sort itself out and pass when I noticed that boat #2 wasn't going to follow #1 and round the last black marker. Nooo, he was going to pass #1 boat by slotting between the 2'nd and 3'rd black markers (out from Eagle I). I popped it into neutral and then reverse to stop motion and allow him to pass in front of me unhindered. I just didn't expect him (and the boat following him) to take that precarious route. Moral of the story; don't get complacent.

Irrigation Guy · 08-22-2007, 07:04 AM

Great picture! After looking at the picture, and given the fact that the other boat should have slowed down at the 150' mark, I now know I would have given a little throttle and scooted a little more quickly in front on the other boat anticipating a capt. bonehead/lack of courtesy move on their part.

They very easily could have let you continue on course and speed by adjusting their speed slightly and been courteous boater.

I like the melting ice cream comment. There is just no reason to exert their right of way in this situation and toss a wake in your direction. Never mind the fact the right of way was gained by breaking the 150' rule.

NBR · 08-22-2007, 08:38 AM

You were the stand off boat but she didn't come to NWS out side the 150' distance, she is also required to take evasive action regardless of who is the stand on boat, you don't know which direction she might turn and a slow moving boat may not respond as quickly. I'm with Al, she didn't see you until the last minute and wanted to be sure you were at fault for her lack of attention. There are more horses rears than horses.

SIKSUKR · 08-22-2007, 09:51 AM

I'm not sure I agree with the boat that that is going headway speed intercepting a boat that is up on plane being classified as the giveway boat.I might be wrong but I would always yield and change course to a boat that is at headway speed when I'm at speed.Then again,I have a 10 ft boat so I yield to pretty much everyone.

Rattlesnake Guy · 08-22-2007, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

I'm not sure I agree with the boat that that is going headway speed intercepting a boat that is up on plane being classified as the giveaway boat.I might be wrong but I would always yield and change course to a boat that is at headway speed when I'm at speed.Then again,I have a 10 ft boat so I yield to pretty much everyone.

Siksukr,
You remind us of the original question. If we were both going NWS I was wrong. If we were both on plane then I was wrong. The difficulty is in the differential in speed. Imagine approaching a fishing boat plugging along and expecting him to get out of your way? Thank you for the perspective. I yield to slower boats as well. (It really seems like the only choice)

WeirsBeachBoater · 08-22-2007, 06:24 PM

I often give way to slower boats, even when I am definitely by the book a stand on vessel. It comes down to common sense and courtesy. So in that context RG should have been avoided by the faster boat. Even if he was by definition the give way vessel. But as it has been noted, that is what the lake is lacking, common sense and courtesy.

upthesaukee · 08-22-2007, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

I often give way to slower boats, even when I am definitely by the book a stand on vessel. It comes down to common sense and courtesy. So in that context RG should have been avoided by the faster boat. Even if he was by definition the give way vessel. But as it has been noted, that is what the lake is lacking, common sense and courtesy.

We are now keeping our boat down in Smith's Cove, and the area right out in front of the Marine Patrol in Glendale bay, over to Governor's, out to Timber - Round - Welch's, and down toward Ellacoya, on a moderately busy day becomes a Right of Way nightmare, and I agree with WBB, there are times when it is easier, and probably safer to yield to the other boater and make your intentions known. It is amazing how a pointing to the boat, and then a friendly directional wave to let them know you are letting them continue, followed by a friendly wave hello - goodbye makes for better boating. The title two wrongs may be a little strong, perhaps lapses in judgement followed by a smidgen of temper

.

And ITD...as a former air traffic controller, I learned early on that pilots could apply their right of way over other airplanes right up to the point of impact

!!!! Boating is the same way. Hopefully a lesson learned will benefit all.

Winnipesaukee · 08-23-2007, 09:53 PM

You might be able to pull off being a vessel of "restricted mobility" due to your speed, but I would rather not test it with MP myself.

LIforrelaxin · 08-28-2007, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

I often give way to slower boats, even when I am definitely by the book a stand on vessel. It comes down to common sense and courtesy. So in that context RG should have been avoided by the faster boat. Even if he was by definition the give way vessel. But as it has been noted, that is what the lake is lacking, common sense and courtesy.

Now The discussion in this thread has been very good, and we all know the what the laws state. All that aside WBB brings up the big issue Common Courtesy.....My quess is the lady RG encountered was just in a rush to get to her dock....and was inconvienced therefore upset.... RG right wrong or indifferent the only thing I think I may have done earlier would have been pulled my boat into neutural....

Education has been a wonderful thing but now too many people think they are experts and love to state there inturpretations of the laws..... example this lady spurting out the 150' rule.... other then she invaded it.... it wasn't the real problem.... now if she had come at RG with the stand-on giveway laws that would have been impressive and correct....

Does any body have the time to present this case to the Marine Patrol to see what thier take on the matter would be? I don't mean to cause any problems for anyone involved, but the MP interpration might be insightful......

jeffk · 08-28-2007, 10:00 AM

Being within 100 ft of shore RG could not have increased speed by very much and still been at "headway" speed. He could have stopped completely and let the other boat pass ahead of him. Since RG was give way this was probably the correct "legal" choice. It also avoids a collision, also a "legal" choice.

On the other hand the incoming boat KNEW that he was going to have to slow down as he approached the island 150' zone. RG's presence meant that he might have to slow down sooner and it should have been obvious that RG wasn't going to be able to completely get out of his way. Even if RG had stopped to let him through it looks as though he would have penetrated RG's 150' circle and therefore he should have "legally" slowed down sooner than he did. If he had done so, RG would have probably passed well ahead of his path. For both courtesy and cautions sake he should have slowed down well ahead of time. Just because you have ROW doesn't mean you must bear down on someone at speed, especially when it looks like it might cause a collision.

All that said, if on the spur of the moment I was placed in RG's position, I would have expected the incoming boat to have slowed down and pulled behind me, simply because he had more maneuvering options that I did, "legal" or not. Suppose RG had been sitting still in the water but not at anchor? Legally RG would have to give way but I don't imagine most boaters would expect him to. Most boaters would slow down and maneuver around him.

As to the picture taking, I really like the idea of photographing boneheads, however as in most boating situations, this one was not clear cut. Photographing someone will obviously imply they are in the wrong and the natural reaction will be to become annoyed. Even complete boneheads will resist taking responsibility for their actions.

Weekend Pundit · 08-28-2007, 12:53 PM

I have to agree with Jeffk.

Right of way was less the issue than the 150' rule.

And, like many others, I will try to steer clear of slower moving or stopped vessels regardless whether I am the stand on vessel or not. If I can't maintain 150' feet of clearance I drop down to headway until I can get clear. After all, it's not like I'm in a hurry to get anywhere when I'm on the lake. Kinda defeats the purpose of being out there in the first place, doesn't it?

Coastal Laker · 08-28-2007, 02:00 PM

This link is one of my favorite for explaining right of way to people (note that the NH rule book makes mention of "right of way" though there is truly no such thing when each boat has a duty):
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/Arcs.htm

If a boat is approaching you in your "green" zone, then you are the give way vessel because the other boat has the green light to go (and therefore it must maintain course and speed).

Likewise, if a boat is in your "red" zone, it has the red light and must give way to you. You are then the stand-on boat and must maintain course and speed.

If a boat is approaching you from the remaining arc (encompasing the stern light in the diagram), then you are being overtaken. In an overtaking situation, the boat being passed must maintain course and speed (stand-on); the boat doing the overtaking must give way.

Hope that helps.

jrc · 08-28-2007, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weekend Pundit

I have to agree with Jeffk.

Right of way was less the issue than the 150' rule...

I'm not so sure that one rule overrides another, I still think you must follow both rules. I hate automobile analogies but I'm going to use one.

If you come to a yield sign indicating the car on the other road has the right of way, can you ignore it if the car is speeding?

JayDV · 08-28-2007, 09:16 PM

I learned to do what the oncoming boat's light told me. If I saw the green light, that meant I GO. If a red light, well, then STOP. If both red and green, then I was being approached head-on so slow down and proceed with caution. I would try to pass starboard to starboard to starboard. This would give both helmsmen the GREEN light. I found it confusing to try to figure out if the oncoming craft was in MY green zone that means slow down because they have right of way, etc.

Is this over simplified? And potentially a dangerous assumption?

Kamper · 08-29-2007, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayDV

... I would try to pass starboard to starboard to starboard. This would give both helmsmen the GREEN light. ...

The standard for passing on-coming traffic is Port-to-Port. Green-to-Green means neither vessell has primary responsibility for avoiding and accident. Red-to-Red means they are both responsible.

I know it's actually just semantics but that's the mnemonic that I was taught. Additionaly, when you are in a channel you are expected to stay to the right. Your action would require crossing a channel and possibly going too far to the edge for your own safety.

Of course, in open waters nobody should force a meneuver to pass to either side if there is ample clearance to avoid an accident no matter what their relative headings. After all, R-O-R only really applies between vessels only when the possibility of a collision exists or may arise.

Good luck!

SIKSUKR · 08-29-2007, 07:36 AM

I'm with Kamper on passing port to port.If it was the opposite,then everyone is on the wrong side in the Weirs channel.

JayDV · 08-29-2007, 07:29 PM

I forgot about the channel logic. I always passed port to port in a channel, but also at headway speeds so not a big problem. But I'll keep the red to red in open waters and be responsible. Thanks

dpg · 08-30-2007, 05:59 AM

Jesus, who the heck can follow or remember all these specific rules? Personally I could see how they would not like the camera pointed at them. I do have my certificate but must admit I do not have every boating rule there is on the lake committed to memory. After all my brain is only so small.

Bear'ings · 08-30-2007, 04:40 PM

This is a great discussion and very informative on right of way, etc. However, this situation, in my opinion, is not about right of way. It's about being courteous on the lake and using common sense. The approaching boat should have passed behind RG & waved wishing him a nice afternoon! I love the limerick earlier. It sums it all up.

Rattlesnake Guy · 08-30-2007, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpg

Jesus, who the heck can follow or remember all these specific rules? Personally I could see how they would not like the camera pointed at them. I do have my certificate but must admit I do not have every boating rule there is on the lake committed to memory. After all my brain is only so small.

If you remember 2 you should do fairly well.

1)Yield to boats that are between 12 and 4.(and others that ignore rule 1 and 2)

2)Stay 150 feet away for everyone, even if they ignore rule 1 and 2.

Winnipesaukee · 09-02-2007, 04:48 PM

I've got better advice: if you are on Lake Winnipesaukee (or any lake in Massachusetts), especially on the weekend, then YOU ARE THE GIVE-WAY BOAT.

Kamper · 09-02-2007, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee

I've got better advice: (no matter what) YOU ARE THE GIVE-WAY BOAT.

That's a lot like saying a driver coming to a green light should stop and let the other car go through the intersection because theymight have been planning on jumping the light.

Safety on the water is enhanced when eveybody uses the same rules. The skipper you wave past on your boat may be happy with you but the one behind you may have been planning their next move on your correct response as the stand-on vessel. Unexpectedly backing down could lead to confusion among the other boaters around you and someone else could be in jeopardy.

You should learn the Rules and get your Safety Certficate if you have not already done so. Always try to be alert for those who arent following the Rules but dont assume that everybody else is going to be ignorant.

Good luck!

Irrigation Guy · 09-02-2007, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayDV

I learned to do what the oncoming boat's light told me. If I saw the green light, that meant I GO. If a red light, well, then STOP. If both red and green, then I was being approached head-on so slow down and proceed with caution. I would try to pass starboard to starboard to starboard. This would give both helmsmen the GREEN light. I found it confusing to try to figure out if the oncoming craft was in MY green zone that means slow down because they have right of way, etc.

Is this over simplified? And potentially a dangerous assumption?

I Agree except its Port to Port when approaching head-on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

I'm with Kamper on passing port to port.If it was the opposite,then everyone is on the wrong side in the Weirs channel.

Me Too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamper

That's a lot like saying a driver coming to a green light should stop and let the other car go through the intersection because theymight have been planning on jumping the light.

Safety on the water is enhanced when eveybody uses the same rules. The skipper you wave past on your boat may be happy with you but the one behind you may have been planning their next move on your correct response as the stand-on vessel. Unexpectedly backing down could lead to confusion among the other boaters around you and someone else could be in jeopardy.

You should learn the Rules and get your Safety Certficate if you have not already done so. Always try to be alert for those who arent following the Rules but dont assume that everybody else is going to be ignorant.

Good luck!

Good advice, as Stand-on is a rule too, and doing something else would make you at least partially liable in the case of a collision.

Winnipesaukee · 09-02-2007, 09:27 PM

Absolutely. I have a few boating certificates (CG, US Sailing) and know all of the "rules of the road;' however, it seems when boating on the above lakes, no matter if you are the stand-on boat or not, you have to give way to the other guy who won't.

It's an anarchy.

ApS · 09-03-2007, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee

I've got better advice: if you are on Lake Winnipesaukee (or any lake in Massachusetts), especially on the weekend, then YOU ARE THE GIVE-WAY BOAT.

My brother-in-law (NT, a member here) made the mistake of arriving at the lake several days later than expected—which meant arriving on Labor Day Weekend.

He's a history buff and when he arrived at the porch and looked out over the mayhem he pronounced, "It's the Normandy Invasion"!

It did quiet down as the afternoon progressed, but I hadn't looked at it from a historical perspective before.

Just Sold · 09-03-2007, 07:27 AM

I was on the lake for a short time yesterday and on 2 occassions "Captain Bonehead" appeared. I was clearly the "Stand On" boat on both occasions and I had to back down as "Captain Bonehead" ignored the right of my boat to continue on course. Both drivers never even looked my way.

I will say I saw a lot more boaters observing the 150' rule than ever before. Yes, a few did not observe the rule but the vast majority did and did so well in advance of our passing. Outside the Gilford docks the 150' rule appeared to be observed very well with all of boats in the area waiting to increasse speed until they were well away from all the other traffic. I did see one incident that I thought to be unsafe as a boat slowly crossed the bow of a sail boat at a distance slightly outside the 150' rule but too close for me. The sail boat was the stand on boat even if it had been a power boat.

A curious thing though was I never once saw a Marine Patrol Boat in 2.5 hours on the lake. It is a busy weekend and the weather was excellent with lots of boat traffic.

randalnh · 09-03-2007, 08:01 AM

Yesterday, coming from the Gov. Island bridge heading towards Meredith and crossing the "highway" between Paugus bay and Eagle Island I had no less that 4 buttheads coming from Paugus fail to alter their course to allow me to pass as the "stand-on" boat As noted by Kamper, this caused as dangerous situation because several other boats behind me now had to stop or alter course to avoid me! Where were the MP's? Who knows. The area around Paugus Bay/Weirs beach was a complete zoo yesterday and not once did I see the MPs until I was having dinner on the Wiers Boulevard. Even then, it was one small baot and he did next to nothing. They complain about no funding, but if they were out in force citing all of these "captain boneheads", they could pay for the added officers and then some. Guess I will stick to boating during the week.

Irrigation Guy · 09-03-2007, 06:03 PM

I must say that I was happily surprised to see and hear them on several occasions Yesterday. First time was around noon as they had two Wave runner pulled over just off lil bear just outside the six markers. Second time, while anchored nearby the location mentioned above, I heard and saw them chase down a loudish go fast type boat. I must say I was happy to see them out there enforcing the rules in this busy area.

They can't be everywhere, but it was nice to see them in such a busy area besides the usual locations.

Pineedles · 09-08-2007, 03:05 PM

Now, am I the stand on boat, ahhh I mean tube? Whatever, that guy better not puncture my tube. Heck, I don't even have a paddle!

Mee-n-Mac · 09-08-2007, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pineedles

Now, am I the stand on boat, ahhh I mean tube? Whatever, that guy better not puncture my tube. Heck, I don't even have a paddle!

Good question ! Gives one paws to think.

Ropetow · 09-08-2007, 09:50 PM

Glad the MPs weren't around. I don't see a PFD or other required safety equipment anywhere. Would a loud 'woofer' be an acceptable alternative to a horn or whistle? Maybe in the dog-days of August, but today?

Rattlesnake Guy · 09-09-2007, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee

I've got better advice: if you are on Lake Winnipesaukee (or any lake in Massachusetts), especially on the weekend, then YOU ARE THE GIVE-WAY BOAT.

Since you made this post, every time I go by an exit ramp on the highway or a rotary I say to myself, I bet that Winnipesaukee would stop here even though he has the right of way. I think that it is much safer to yield when you are supposed to and stand on when it is appropriate. If everyone yields and tries to go behind the other boat, it translates into a head on collision. When I am the give way boat I want to stay at speed and simply turn behind you. If you turn or slow, I have to stop as I can not predict what the heck you are up to.

If I don't yield then by all means do what you have to do. I am hoping that is what you mean in your later post.

08-19-2007, 06:26 PM	#5
WeirsBeachBoater Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 709 Blog Entries: 9 Thanks: 39 Thanked 148 Times in 65 Posts	Give way vs stand on. I believe that you were the give way vessel. I do not think speed has anything to do in this case. If they were approaching from your starboard side, you would be the give way and they the stand on.

08-19-2007, 10:11 PM	#10
Winnipesaukee Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 233 Thanks: 14 Thanked 16 Times in 12 Posts	In my opinion, he was in the wrong. You were at headway speed as required. He was operating over headway speed within your 300 foot radius. I am neither a MP or a lawyer nor do I pretend to play one on TV. The rule on Winnipesaukee: You are ALWAYS the give-way vessel and EVERYONE else is ALWAYS the stand-on vessel. You can also do what I do: stop the boat, shut off the engine, and step away from the helm. Bingo: vessel not under command. Kidding. Kind of. I teach sailing on a small lake in MA where the rules are never followed. Whenever out in the motorboat, I always carry my camera and take pictures of the crazies. I'll post them up here sometime. __________________ Sail fast, live slow!

08-19-2007, 10:15 PM	#11
hazelnut Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,348 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 508 Thanked 462 Times in 162 Posts	Can't believe this?!?!?! Seriously RG you guys were in no way at all in the wrong. Anyone who believes that RG should have altered their actions is out of their minds here. RG was at headway speed!!!! Essentially a boat at headway or idle becomes the obstacle to be avoided meaning the boat on plane has the obligation to avoid coming within 150 feet of the idle/off plane boat. This case is so clear cut and simple I can not believe there is a debate here. RG you were 100% correct and the offending operator was incorrect, ignorant and rude.

08-20-2007, 01:39 AM	#12
andyporter Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bear Island Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Did you feel Danger for your life? Are you sure that was her dock? Or was she dropping someone off? I think by telling her you were filming or taking pictures or whatever you fueled the situation. Now maybe I'm wrong I wasn't there. All I'm saying is no one likes a snitch! Was she coming after you or just showing off. Man if I had I dollar for all the jerks that almost hit me over the years I could buy you property! HA HA!!! And is there a forum where I can bitch about every MASSHOLE car driver that cuts me off? Just sayin' boat safely and love the lake!

08-20-2007, 05:46 AM	#13
Lakegeezer Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 1,657 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 342 Thanked 617 Times in 278 Posts	slow is what it is Since you were going slow, you could only have altered course to a small degree. I've never heard anything about requiring the stand-off boat to change speed - just direction. No matter what direction you moved in, your movement would not have significantly altered the passage distance between you. All stand-off means (to me at least) is that you are responsible to alter course so that there is at least 150 feet on passage. There are often fishing boats near the shore (or even in traffic lanes such as the graveyard) moving as you describe, and there is no way they are expected to move out of the way quickly. Now - if you are trolling slowly out in the broads and the Mt. Washington is bearing down on you - you might want to remember the "might makes right" rule and get out of the way. This next comment does not apply to this situation, but is related. There are narrow places on the lake where boats can pass at speed, as long as there is no activity going on near the shoreline which changes the location of the 150 bubble - such as kayaks, fishing boats, swimmers, etc. When there is, the two passing boats must slow down - but of course, often don't. Those along the shoreline that are creating the hazard are fully in their rights to be there - but rules of courtesy suggests that they should be aware of the hazard they are creating - and its impact - and consider moving along - especially if the lake traffic is high. __________________ -lg

08-19-2007, 04:09 PM	#1
Rattlesnake Guy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,254 Thanks: 423 Thanked 366 Times in 175 Posts	Stand on Boat Question In the category of two wrongs don't make a right, RG and I had an unusual one today and are not sure if we were correct or not. We tried to look up the situation in the rules but could not find the combination. We need the collective expertise of the group to rule on this one. We were traveling about a 100 feet from shore looking at various architectural aspects of lake front homes as many people do. We were at headway speed being within a 150 feet of shore. Land on our left. We noticed a boat on plane coming straight at us 90 degrees on on the right. I put my boat in neutral and watched the other boat with keen interest. As the boat broke the 150 foot barrier to us, RG picked up the camera to start documenting the situation. The boat fell off plane at about 75 from us. As the boat passed behind us, the driver and Gal exchanged rule interpretations at an elevated level. I think the picture taking was not appreciated and we were informed that she was the stand on boat. That we were of very questionable intellect and we should look up the law. RG explained that she needed to maintain 150 feet from our boat. I tried to convey that I was not moving fast. I admit that I was not paying attention to the boats that were moving quickly around the open water and did not yield to the boat that came to shore just as I was passing her dock. I am not sure how much I could have corrected my path at the speed I was traveling relative to hers. I know she violated the 150 foot rule but, can someone explain if the "stand on give way rules" are the same if one or both boats are at headway speed? It would make sense to me that with the precedent of the overtaking boat having to yield to the overtaken boat, a boat on plane should adjust it's course when encountering a boat that is stopped or moving slowly. But I have been wrong more times than I can remember. Thanks for your judicial rulings.

08-19-2007, 04:19 PM	#2
chipj29 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bow Posts: 1,874 Thanks: 521 Thanked 308 Times in 162 Posts	Sorry, I have no judicial ruling, but why wouldn't the other operator just slow down a couple seconds later, and go into their dock behind you?

08-19-2007, 04:24 PM	#3
Kamper Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Thornton's Ferry Posts: 1,296 Thanks: 67 Thanked 166 Times in 126 Posts	Bad manners aside, I believe they were the stand-on vessel. They key is they were coming in from your right side. If they were overtaking you from either side then you would have been stand-on. Overtaking is coming at you from astern. I think there is some degre of arc that deterines when you are being overtaken Vs aproached from the side but 90degrees is not being overtaken. Rules of the road apply at any speed. I have even been told they apply if you are just drifiting. The term I was given is "Under weigh, not making weigh." They should have reduced speed to head-way when within 150ft but that's a different situation. Your friend was correct to take pictures since they were in a public place and he had every right to do so. Hope your next trip is more enjoyable!

08-19-2007, 06:26 PM	#4
kjbathe Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 281 Thanks: 3 Thanked 21 Times in 11 Posts	I'm looking forward to the discussion on this one, too, but I'll give you my opinion. While the boat approaching you at 90 degrees to your right was the stand on vessel, that you were already at headway speed and then in neutral makes the other boat the give-way vessel because... every operator is responsible for taking the necessary action to avoid a collision. There's little more you can do in Neutral other than turn into shore, or back up. By your description, I think the other operator was just being a puke -- being the stand-on vessel does not exempt the operator from the safe passage rule.

08-19-2007, 07:06 PM	#6
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,860 Thanks: 461 Thanked 666 Times in 366 Posts	I think the key point here is that you were still moving whether in neutral or not you still had the responsibility to alter your course to avoid a collision. That being said, it sounds as though the other party should have gone to headway speed sooner. I don't agree with the "picture taking" idea to prove one is right. It really proves nothing as it is impossible to judge distance in a photo and in this case it would just prove that you were the give way boat. Worst case, is someone is trying to take a picture and drive the boat, that's just idiotic if you ask me. ( I understand you weren't taking the pictures.) Kudos to you Rattlesnake Guy for trying to sort this out though, Good Luck.

08-19-2007, 07:44 PM	#9
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	This is a case of two wrongs make two wrongs Obviously, the other boat broke the 150' rule. But those offenses don't allow you to break the crossing rule. 270-D:2 ... III. When vessels are crossing courses or approaching each other in an oblique direction which may involve risk of collision, the vessel which has the other on its starboard side shall keep out of the way of the other, allowing the latter vessel to keep its course and speed. You can't just stop and make them go around you. You have to keep out of their way. That means you may have to speed-up or even reverse to get out of their way. Now if you make the argument that if they had slowed to headway speed as they were required, then the the crossing situation would have been different... Maybe if they slowed in time you would have been well clear before they arrived.

08-20-2007, 07:10 AM	#14
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,974 Thanks: 246 Thanked 736 Times in 438 Posts	Since the other vessel was indeed the stand-on vessel, that vessel was required to maintain course and speed (conditions permitting). Since it was approaching shore, we all know that mainatining speed was not possible. That fact makes it very difficult for RG to determine if he was actually on a collision course or not. That said, the proper thing to do in this situation is to turn hard to starboard and aim directly at the stand-on boat, then maintain that course until the stand-on boat has passed the "150 foot from you" mark. This gives the stand-on boat a strong visual clue that you see them, are giving way, and intend to pass behind them at more than 150 feet. It also puts you on a good heading to hit their wake.

08-20-2007, 07:48 AM	#15
Irrigation Guy Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Moultonborough, NH Posts: 484 Thanks: 89 Thanked 138 Times in 72 Posts	Having taken the CG Aux course many years ago and being a former ocean boater, I am very aware of the "rules of the road". That being said, I know that the other vessel was the "stand on" vessel. What this reminds me of is a crossing situation I have routinely encountered in the past where a sailboat is involved. This is because RG's boat was traveling at headway speed, a speed similar to that traveled by a sailboat. All rules aside, the other vessel could easily have chosen to pass behind your stern and the problem is solved. Its a case of common courtesy, and the other vessel chose to stick to the "i have the right of way" attitude. Another similarity comes to mind when driving in a car. If we are driving along at the speed limit or below in traffic, we don't have to stop or slow to let someone on a side street pull out into traffic because we have the right of way. It is however common courtesy, to do just that, especially if we notice they are having a difficult time doing so. RG's boat could have taken evasive action to stick to the rules even though it would have been difficult and the other vessel had broken one rule already. The courteous thing to do would have been to let RG's boat continue on their way and go behind their stern thus leaving little or no wake to contend with for either vessel, and it could have easily been done. Very few operators of boats these days take into account their wake and what impact on another vessel it will have. If I have the option I will always go behind a boat traveling at headway speed, whether its a fishing boat, sailboat, or just a powerboat enjoy a slow cruise, it's just the right thing to do. Reminds me of the old and quickly forgotten saying in Mass, "A little courtesy won't kill you".

08-20-2007, 08:10 AM	#16
robmac Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Nashua,Meredith Posts: 951 Thanks: 213 Thanked 106 Times in 81 Posts	I have always given way to other vessels because who knows at that point weather they actually know the rules. I don't believe RG was at fault in this situation

08-20-2007, 08:34 AM	#17
Rattlesnake Gal Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Central NH Posts: 5,252 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 1,447 Thanked 1,349 Times in 475 Posts	Common Courtesy When I first spotted her boat heading our way, my thought was she was heading toward the island to get shelter from the wind and waves as many boaters do on choppy, windy days like yesterday. When her intentions became apparent we had little time, if at all, to do anything as she was heading toward us so fast. We were traveling at headway speed on a leisurely cruise enjoying the sights of Rattlesnake Island and that was certainly obvious from her vantage point. As you might imagine, over the years we have yielded to countless boats as we were trying to get to our dock, never once giving thought to the fact that we were the stand-on boat. We call it common courtesy. My snapping pictures definitely fueled this situation and given the same scenario, I would take them again. I’m not sure that I would put both arms in the air and call that they were within 150’ of us though. I hope that point would be obvious.

08-21-2007, 07:53 AM	#23
islandAl Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Mountonboro Posts: 200 Thanks: 12 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	tough without seeing it Very tough to say without actually seeing the exact situation. But since the other boat passed behind you, your putting it into neutral probably made the situation worse. Had you kept going you may have been well out of the way before they reached 150 ft behind you. The other boater probably was not anticipating your stopping (or slowing down) and therefore came closer than they thought. Was the other boat headed directly at you, or headed in front of you? If in front (to cross your bow) then you should have changed direction to travel behind the other. Headed directly at you, nudge up the speed a bit to clear the area before they get there. You had little option beyond that as you are close to shore and can only change direction to close the distance quicker. They should have slowed before they "broke" the 150 foot zone and common sense says they slow down approaching shore and just motor behind you.

08-21-2007, 11:37 AM	#25
GWC... Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,325 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wonder if their ice cream made it to the Island before it melted or was their cottage on fire? __________________ [Assume funny, clever sig is here. Laugh and reflect... ]

08-21-2007, 12:09 PM	#26
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,860 Thanks: 461 Thanked 666 Times in 366 Posts	This thread reminds me of a little limerick I once heard, don't know who the author is: Here lay the grave of Micheal O'Day Who died maintaining his right of way. His right was clear, his will was strong But he is just as dead, As if he were wrong. Boat safely.

08-21-2007, 12:24 PM	#27
islandAl Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Mountonboro Posts: 200 Thanks: 12 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	great drawing IF ?? 1. They had come off plane a little earlier, then pass with never a second thought. 2. You had made hard right to go behind, they still would have had to come off plane earlier. My bet is that they were focused on the dock and did not notice you (as you did not notice them) until they were in the zone. Now, they must blame someone else for the transgression.

08-21-2007, 12:28 PM	#28
lakershaker Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Rattlesnake Isl. - Simsbury, CT Posts: 271 Thanks: 90 Thanked 44 Times in 26 Posts	Great Diagram! I have to say, that is a great diagram! I agree with your title - "Two Wrongs." This seems like a situation though that needn't have escalated as much as it seems to have. While you clearly did not have the right of way, it appears from the drawing that the stand on boat should have seen you, and been mildly inconvenienced by about 10 seconds in landing at their dock by slowing earlier and letting you pass. But who knows what was happening in the other boat??? Maybe she was worried about landing in strong wind and had her dander up... Maybe she was distracted by a dog running in the boat and didn't see you... Neither of which are excuses, but I think everyone can relate to a similar situation. As I was recently taught in another thread, the word is empathize... or is it sympathize? Anyway... Unfortunately, it seems lots of people are not leaving their anger & stress at the dock, and are bringing it with them on the lake. This is manifesting itself by yelling at strangers in situations where nobody intended to cause harm and taking pictures of people with the intent to provoke emotion. I think that these emotions are the root of most of the problems being discussed on this forum, and I hope people can step back, take a deep breath, and say to themselves, "I am on vacation, and it isn't worth the hassel to get all worked up." I know I need to do that too, and my wife reminds me when Capt' Bonehead gets close!

08-22-2007, 07:04 AM	#30
Irrigation Guy Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Moultonborough, NH Posts: 484 Thanks: 89 Thanked 138 Times in 72 Posts	Two wrongs, not really Great picture! After looking at the picture, and given the fact that the other boat should have slowed down at the 150' mark, I now know I would have given a little throttle and scooted a little more quickly in front on the other boat anticipating a capt. bonehead/lack of courtesy move on their part. They very easily could have let you continue on course and speed by adjusting their speed slightly and been courteous boater. I like the melting ice cream comment. There is just no reason to exert their right of way in this situation and toss a wake in your direction. Never mind the fact the right of way was gained by breaking the 150' rule.

08-22-2007, 08:38 AM	#31
NBR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bristol Posts: 119 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 15 Posts	You were the stand off boat but she didn't come to NWS out side the 150' distance, she is also required to take evasive action regardless of who is the stand on boat, you don't know which direction she might turn and a slow moving boat may not respond as quickly. I'm with Al, she didn't see you until the last minute and wanted to be sure you were at fault for her lack of attention. There are more horses rears than horses.

08-22-2007, 09:51 AM	#32
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	I'm not sure I agree with the boat that that is going headway speed intercepting a boat that is up on plane being classified as the giveway boat.I might be wrong but I would always yield and change course to a boat that is at headway speed when I'm at speed.Then again,I have a 10 ft boat so I yield to pretty much everyone. __________________ SIKSUKR

08-22-2007, 06:24 PM	#34
WeirsBeachBoater Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 709 Blog Entries: 9 Thanks: 39 Thanked 148 Times in 65 Posts	I think its a matter of courtesy I often give way to slower boats, even when I am definitely by the book a stand on vessel. It comes down to common sense and courtesy. So in that context RG should have been avoided by the faster boat. Even if he was by definition the give way vessel. But as it has been noted, that is what the lake is lacking, common sense and courtesy.

08-23-2007, 09:53 PM	#36
Winnipesaukee Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 233 Thanks: 14 Thanked 16 Times in 12 Posts	You might be able to pull off being a vessel of "restricted mobility" due to your speed, but I would rather not test it with MP myself. __________________ Sail fast, live slow!

08-28-2007, 10:00 AM	#38
jeffk Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Center Harbor Posts: 1,130 Thanks: 201 Thanked 421 Times in 239 Posts	RG had limited options Being within 100 ft of shore RG could not have increased speed by very much and still been at "headway" speed. He could have stopped completely and let the other boat pass ahead of him. Since RG was give way this was probably the correct "legal" choice. It also avoids a collision, also a "legal" choice. On the other hand the incoming boat KNEW that he was going to have to slow down as he approached the island 150' zone. RG's presence meant that he might have to slow down sooner and it should have been obvious that RG wasn't going to be able to completely get out of his way. Even if RG had stopped to let him through it looks as though he would have penetrated RG's 150' circle and therefore he should have "legally" slowed down sooner than he did. If he had done so, RG would have probably passed well ahead of his path. For both courtesy and cautions sake he should have slowed down well ahead of time. Just because you have ROW doesn't mean you must bear down on someone at speed, especially when it looks like it might cause a collision. All that said, if on the spur of the moment I was placed in RG's position, I would have expected the incoming boat to have slowed down and pulled behind me, simply because he had more maneuvering options that I did, "legal" or not. Suppose RG had been sitting still in the water but not at anchor? Legally RG would have to give way but I don't imagine most boaters would expect him to. Most boaters would slow down and maneuver around him. As to the picture taking, I really like the idea of photographing boneheads, however as in most boating situations, this one was not clear cut. Photographing someone will obviously imply they are in the wrong and the natural reaction will be to become annoyed. Even complete boneheads will resist taking responsibility for their actions.

08-28-2007, 12:53 PM	#39
Weekend Pundit Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Gilford Posts: 289 Thanks: 19 Thanked 51 Times in 31 Posts	150-foot rule overrides right-of-way this time I have to agree with Jeffk. Right of way was less the issue than the 150' rule. And, like many others, I will try to steer clear of slower moving or stopped vessels regardless whether I am the stand on vessel or not. If I can't maintain 150' feet of clearance I drop down to headway until I can get clear. After all, it's not like I'm in a hurry to get anywhere when I'm on the lake. Kinda defeats the purpose of being out there in the first place, doesn't it?

08-28-2007, 02:00 PM	#40
Coastal Laker Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: In the Beautiful Lakes Region of course! Posts: 130 Thanks: 1 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	On the topic of Right of Way... This link is one of my favorite for explaining right of way to people (note that the NH rule book makes mention of "right of way" though there is truly no such thing when each boat has a duty): http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/Arcs.htm If a boat is approaching you in your "green" zone, then you are the give way vessel because the other boat has the green light to go (and therefore it must maintain course and speed). Likewise, if a boat is in your "red" zone, it has the red light and must give way to you. You are then the stand-on boat and must maintain course and speed. If a boat is approaching you from the remaining arc (encompasing the stern light in the diagram), then you are being overtaken. In an overtaking situation, the boat being passed must maintain course and speed (stand-on); the boat doing the overtaking must give way. Hope that helps.

08-28-2007, 09:16 PM	#42
JayDV Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Fairfield, CT & island vacation Posts: 97 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Treat them like a stop light I learned to do what the oncoming boat's light told me. If I saw the green light, that meant I GO. If a red light, well, then STOP. If both red and green, then I was being approached head-on so slow down and proceed with caution. I would try to pass starboard to starboard to starboard. This would give both helmsmen the GREEN light. I found it confusing to try to figure out if the oncoming craft was in MY green zone that means slow down because they have right of way, etc. Is this over simplified? And potentially a dangerous assumption?

08-29-2007, 07:36 AM	#44
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	I'm with Kamper on passing port to port.If it was the opposite,then everyone is on the wrong side in the Weirs channel. __________________ SIKSUKR Last edited by SIKSUKR; 08-29-2007 at 08:18 AM.

08-29-2007, 07:29 PM	#45
JayDV Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Fairfield, CT & island vacation Posts: 97 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I forgot about the channel logic. I always passed port to port in a channel, but also at headway speeds so not a big problem. But I'll keep the red to red in open waters and be responsible. Thanks

08-30-2007, 05:59 AM	#46
dpg Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 2,560 Thanks: 149 Thanked 229 Times in 166 Posts	Jesus, who the heck can follow or remember all these specific rules? Personally I could see how they would not like the camera pointed at them. I do have my certificate but must admit I do not have every boating rule there is on the lake committed to memory. After all my brain is only so small.

08-30-2007, 04:40 PM	#47
Bear'ings Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bear Island Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Common Courtesy This is a great discussion and very informative on right of way, etc. However, this situation, in my opinion, is not about right of way. It's about being courteous on the lake and using common sense. The approaching boat should have passed behind RG & waved wishing him a nice afternoon! I love the limerick earlier. It sums it all up.

09-02-2007, 04:48 PM	#49
Winnipesaukee Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 233 Thanks: 14 Thanked 16 Times in 12 Posts	I've got better advice: if you are on Lake Winnipesaukee (or any lake in Massachusetts), especially on the weekend, then YOU ARE THE GIVE-WAY BOAT. __________________ Sail fast, live slow!

09-02-2007, 09:27 PM	#52
Winnipesaukee Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 233 Thanks: 14 Thanked 16 Times in 12 Posts	Absolutely. I have a few boating certificates (CG, US Sailing) and know all of the "rules of the road;' however, it seems when boating on the above lakes, no matter if you are the stand-on boat or not, you have to give way to the other guy who won't. It's an anarchy. __________________ Sail fast, live slow!