PWC problems smell fishy!

[Colt]

Picked up my 2004 Seadoo from it's winter storage. Launched it and took a couple of short rides. Next ride an alarm went off and it wasn't starting. Marina took it back and replaced the starter switch and something else minor. Put it back in and alarm goes off again check it out and there's no oil. Marina says top it off and i should be fine. Add Oil and next ride it's dry again. Marina picks it up and says It'll cost $3600.00 for new cylinder heads, pistons, intake valves and a laundry list of parts.

I think it wasn't winterized properly leading to the original problem and incorrect diagnosis. We barely use the thing 55 hrs total and the same Marina has done all winterizing storage and service. Am I off base thinking this should be covered by the marina and not my responsibility. I'd appreciate any thoughts, advice, or comments. I don't want to name the marina until I get a better read on the situation.

Thanks, Colt

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by Colt

Picked up my 2004 Seadoo from it's winter storage. Launched it and took a couple of short rides. Next ride an alarm went off and it wasn't starting. Marina took it back and replaced the starter switch and something else minor. Put it back in and alarm goes off again check it out and there's no oil. Marina says top it off and i should be fine. Add Oil and next ride it's dry again. Marina picks it up and says It'll cost $3600.00 for new cylinder heads, pistons, intake valves and a laundry list of parts.

I think it wasn't winterized properly leading to the original problem and incorrect diagnosis. We barely use the thing 55 hrs total and the same Marina has done all winterizing storage and service. Am I off base thinking this should be covered by the marina and not my responsibility. I'd appreciate any thoughts, advice, or comments. I don't want to name the marina until I get a better read on the situation.

Thanks, Colt

Hi Colt,

You have not indicated which Sea-Doo model you have. That is key to understanding what might have gone wrong. If you were running any PWC without oil, you clearly could destroy the motor.

The question here is where is the oil is going? In general, I would either expect that it was burned in the cylinders, entered the cooling system (if a 4 stroke) or drained into the bilge.

Did the marina do an oil change as part of the winterization or summerization?

Jetskier

[AC2717]

Would definatley have to find the root of why it is loosing oil and then determine what caused the root of that problem, before shifting blame anywhere, could be if not winterized it would cause that type of damage but have to find out the damage first, if it is going to coast that much I think you would be better off just buying a whole new engine, might be chepaer, and would definatley be a better way to go

[Colt]

GTX Limited. This is a 4 stroke.

[Dave R]

What sort of steps are necessary to Winterize the engine? Does it require draining or does all the cooling water drain out when it's out of the water?

Oil lost like that would indicate a huge problem like cracked cylinder head. They can crack when water freezes in them... I think you may have a case but can't say for certain.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by jetskier

The question here is where is the oil is going? In general, I would either expect that it was burned in the cylinders, entered the cooling system (if a 4 stroke) or drained into the bilge.

Did the marina do an oil change as part of the winterization or summerization?

Jetskier

I'll add 2 other possibilities. They did 1/2 an oil change. Drained it but forgot to refill it. Then you'd get engine damage and subsequent oil loss. Or they forgot to tighten the drain plug. Going to be hard to prove in either case.

[AC2717]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

I'll add 2 other possibilities. They did 1/2 an oil change. Drained it but forgot to refill it. Then you'd get engine damage and subsequent oil loss. Or they forgot to tighten the drain plug. Going to be hard to prove in either case.

I agree unless the plug is still gone either way thoguht it wil be tough. Unless there is no oil in the blidge and no evidence of it burning off, it is a four stroke and it should not be burnign oil. Either way you are stuck trying to prove it, which can and does mean more time and money

[SIKSUKR]

I'm not sure 1\2 an oil change would blow the head gaskets or crack the block in that short amount of time.I'm leaning towards what Dave thought,water freezing during storage.Did you roll the pwc over during your first two rides?IF so and it was not righted in the proper direction(mine is clockwise only),water can get into the moter and wreck havoc.If this wasn't the case did they winterize it for you?

[Colt]

Never rolled it they've done all the winterizing and service. If it cracked over the winter due to freezing. Then it would leak the oil thus the repeated low oil levels...right?
As it stands right now Seadoo is paying $500 due to the low hours. Marina is paying $1000 so they're admitting some fault. They want me to pay the balance. Even with this arrangement I'm still feeling a little sore in the behind.

[SIKSUKR]

I'm not one to put immediate blame on the "other guy",but it sure sounds like none of this should be coming out of your pocket.Stand firm.

[4Fun]

$3600 is WAY too much for a rebuild. You can buy a rebuilt engine with a 1 year warranty for $1800 for that model at SBTontheweb.com. Maybe $500 to put it in.

The oil should have been full when delivered to you.

Where did the oil go? In the hull? is there oil in the coolant? Coolant in the oil? Check out PWCtoday.com for a wealth of knowlege on this. Go to the seadoo forum. They will help you get the info you need to talk at a higher level to the marina. By the time this is over you will know more than the dealer and will be able to winterize it yourself in a 1/2 hour.

One thing to think about is if they ran it on a hose in the yard during maintenance and left the hose running without the engine on, it will fill with water. Sure way to kill an engine on short order even 2 minutes on the hose without the motor going is disaster. This is NOT the case with a boat so even thought they should know this they might not.

I would also check your pump oil. It's unrelated but since they did such a good job with the engine it would be a shame to shell out another grand later to find out the messed that up too .

Colt are you Al by chance???

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by 4Fun

$3600 is WAY too much for a rebuild. You can buy a rebuilt engine with a 1 year warranty for $1800 for that model at SBTontheweb.com. Maybe $500 to put it in.

The oil should have been full when delivered to you.

Where did the oil go? In the hull? is there oil in the coolant? Coolant in the oil? Check out PWCtoday.com for a wealth of knowlege on this. Go to the seadoo forum. They will help you get the info you need to talk at a higher level to the marina. By the time this is over you will know more than the dealer and will be able to winterize it yourself in a 1/2 hour.

One thing to think about is if they ran it on a hose in the yard during maintenance and left the hose running without the engine on, it will fill with water. Sure way to kill an engine on short order even 2 minutes on the hose without the motor going is disaster. This is NOT the case with a boat so even thought they should know this they might not.

I would also check your pump oil. It's unrelated but since they did such a good job with the engine it would be a shame to shell out another grand later to find out the messed that up too .

Colt are you Al by chance???

The key to the mystery is where the oil went and whether they contibuted to blowing the engine. Oil use in a 4 stroke is very very minimal. So (as 4Fun indicated), the oil had to go into the coolant, bilge or cylinders. If that much oil burned in the cylinders, you would likely have a hydro lock...at a minimum a bellowing blue cloud of smoke. You should be able to see the oil in the bilge, if there was a leak. You might see the oil in the overflow reserve (coolant) if the oil leaked into the cooling system.

We had a mechanic do a rebuild on a 96 GTX and that ran about $3,000. I think that $1,800 is a bit optimistic. But the key here is why this happened and who is culpable. I am curious about the arrangement. Why did the shop agree to the $1,000 reduction? Did they admit anything?

Jetskier

[Kamper]

I think I saw you post this on another forum too?

Since the marina is starting to show guilt you should be a little more firm with them. You're not going to get that matching fund anywhere else so I'd let them fix it and still keep expressing that you should not be paying anything.

If they insist, then you'll probably be better off paying the difference now and consider your options. 1) Never do business with them and let your friends know why. 2) Take them to small claims court after you get it all done. 3) Dont waste your time on small claims court, never do business with them again and let perfect strangers know why you arent using that shop!

Good luck!

K

[Aquadeziac]

I replaced the motor in my 98 GTX with a SBT rebuilt with a "no questions asked, 100% Two Year Warranty" for $1200 and swapped it myself. Very cost effective. If the dealer has already offered to pay $1000 of the cost they are admitting some responsibility. That translates to more ammo at court time. When the dealer was winterizing my boat, THEY told me they winterized according to THEIR protocol beacuse THEY knew if anything happened resulting from THEIR winterization (or negligence) that THEY were responsible for any and all damage.
If yours was a dealer in Moultonborough, they were involved in the reason my own GTX needed a new motor....bad maintenance. Basically someone didn't check something important when the machine was serviced (to do this task, you had to work by mirror between the engine and the hull side and its time consuming) Result? Self distruction with pieces coming out of the engine case.

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by jetskier

The key to the mystery is where the oil went and whether they contibuted to blowing the engine. Oil use in a 4 stroke is very very minimal. So (as 4Fun indicated), the oil had to go into the coolant, bilge or cylinders. If that much oil burned in the cylinders, you would likely have a hydro lock...at a minimum a bellowing blue cloud of smoke. You should be able to see the oil in the bilge, if there was a leak. You might see the oil in the overflow reserve (coolant) if the oil leaked into the cooling system.

We had a mechanic do a rebuild on a 96 GTX and that ran about $3,000. I think that $1,800 is a bit optimistic. But the key here is why this happened and who is culpable. I am curious about the arrangement. Why did the shop agree to the $1,000 reduction? Did they admit anything?

Jetskier

Jetskier,
I don't doubt $3000 for a rebuilt is the average local price but you can buy a rebuilt 4tec engine from sbt for $1800 + shipping. so for less than $2500 you are back in business. Not cheap by any means but I would not pay ANY local shop to touch ANY of my toys. Or at a bare minimum double check all the work they perform.

[chipj29]

Beware of SBT. They don't have the best reputation on other forums that I have seen. A lot of people end up having to submit warranty claims. They do honor the warranty though, so that's good.

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by 4Fun

Jetskier,
I don't doubt $3000 for a rebuilt is the average local price but you can buy a rebuilt 4tec engine from sbt for $1800 + shipping. so for less than $2500 you are back in business. Not cheap by any means but I would not pay ANY local shop to touch ANY of my toys. Or at a bare minimum double check all the work they perform.

That sounds about right for the cost of the engine. Shop rates are highly variable. The quality of workmanship is highly variable from shop to shop and depending upon the technician. I had a shop in MA change the pump oil in the 96 GTX and later found that they had not seated the seal properly and the pump was full of water/not oil. Some shops are fine...we had an independent mechanic do this work and he did a nice job. I have had some interesting issue with the local shops and my snowmobiles too. Too bad, it can be a real pain.

Jetskier

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Aquadeziac

If the dealer has already offered to pay $1000 of the cost they are admitting some responsibility. That translates to more ammo at court time.

Keep in mind that if you have to get a lawyer involved to fight it in court you can ring up a few grand in legal fees quite quickly, which most likely you will not be able to get back even if you do win. In a non-pwc related case I had with a local business they were clearly at fault and after suing them and settling out of court it still cost me $2500+ in legal fees. I am told the way a typical purchase, sale or service agreement works, unless specified by both parties up front does not specify who pays legal fees in a case of litigation.

I am certainly no lawyer though, just an experience I had...