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Old 11-01-2012, 08:45 AM   #1
nhboat61
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Default warming basement

We recently purchased some property that had two houses on it. One is a cottage that is year round. I have year round tenants ( first time to be used all winter). I have electric heat and a pellet stove on the first floor. There is n heat in the basement.

I'm being told that even with full time renters, the pipes in the basement might freeze. I have also been told that I can cut two holes in the floor and this will allow heat to go down into the basement to keep the pipes from freezing.

The basement floor and foundation are poured cement. There is no interior stairs and basically about 3 feet below ground.

Any one have an idea if this will work or any suggestions ? I've been a firefighter for 30 years and heat rises, so I just dont understand how this is going to work.

I hate to add some sort of extra heat to the basement.
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:02 AM   #2
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Default Heat Tape?

I think the easiest and most inexpensive solution might be to use thermostatically controlled heat tape on your pipes. Simple and very effective and will only turn on when temps get below your thermostat setting. I would set the thermostat at 40 degrees.

I agree with you, I don't know how putting holes in your floor would heat the basement.

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Old 11-01-2012, 09:46 AM   #3
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Default basement

I think if you want to just add the heat tapes that are thermostatically controled that you will be fine. As long as the space is completely closed off and insulated with no drafts even without heat tapes I think you would be good but put the heat tapes in just in case to make you feel better. I would not worry much about it. I have no heat in my lakefront home basement and I only have foundation on 3 sides and the 4th wall is not even insulated. I have many water, drain and sewer pipes in this area and I have NEVER had a issue. Good Luck!
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:49 AM   #4
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Yes warm air does not flow downward on it's own. You would need two floor grates one with a fan blowing down and one for return.

As for frozen pipes with a poured foundation and heated upstairs, not very likely. For insurance Dan's idea of the heat tape sounds better than cutting holes in the floor.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:38 AM   #5
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Default Agree with Slickcraft

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As for frozen pipes with a poured foundation and heated upstairs, not very likely. For insurance Dan's idea of the heat tape sounds better than cutting holes in the floor.
I had a poured foundation and I never had problems with frozen pipes. In fact it was a crawlspace, not a cellar.

If you have forced hot water baseboard heating, the hot water flows below the fooring and gives off warmth to the foundation.
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:16 PM   #6
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If the floor above the basement is uninsulated, then heat radiating downward will keep the basement from freezing. Then again, without insulation under that floor, it will feel cold all winter. Trying to add heat to an uninsulated basement will be difficult, as that concrete in contact with very cold ground will suck up heat quite readily.

While heating tapes around the piping will protect them, you could address the freezing problem and also the issue of a cold floor by insulating the foundation walls. One good way to do this is with sheets of 2" rigid foam board, either glued or mechanically fastened to the concrete. For fire protection, the foam likely will have to be covered with an ignition barrier. If drywall is chosen for this, a frame of 2x4's on the flat can be erected over the foam board, and the drywall fastened to that frame. Keep the drywall a half inch off the floor. The small cavity behind the drywall can be used for electrical outlet wiring. Don't use fiberglass batt insulation up against the concrete. That's a recipe for a musty basement.

A good read on how to insulate a basement wall is here: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/...-basement-wall. Note comments 8 and 9 at the end.
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:40 PM   #7
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Having a hole between one level and the other used to be common but to allow heat to go into the -upper- level. Now it's considerred a fire-hazard to have those opennings. I'd go with the heat tape suggestion myself.
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:09 PM   #8
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Who pays the electric bill?
Is the electric panel in basement?

All of the suggestions above are very good.
You want this area as tight as possible and insulated.
Wrap all pipes with that foam insualtion unless you are going route of the heat tape.

You could also put a baseboard electric heat in basement. Comes in up to 8 foot lengths and you could put a thermostat for such. Set it at 45 or lowest setting.

Hope to have good tenants. Being a landlord is not for all.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:13 PM   #9
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nhboat61, I just noticed that you are fairly new to posting on the forum and glad you have joined us. Have fun and enjoy the Winni Forum while making many new friends. I see that you have some good suggestions and comments already and I’m sure you will get what you are looking for from the members. You may have to combine a little from 2 or 3 suggestions to come up with exactly what you are looking for. Best of luck.

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Old 11-02-2012, 06:01 AM   #10
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Default Idea's

We bought a camp years ago that had no basement just a crawl space with siding around it and vents in either end and you cover the whole thing with 2" insulation for the winter.
The first year my water pipe froze and it was because the heat tape failed.
I replaced the heat tape with new stuff and it has never failed since, sometimes the simple, least expensive fix is the best.
I would not recommend cutting holes in the floor. Two reasons, one fire hazard and second you will always have cold air coming up from the basement into the living area.
Honestly if you have the crawl space completely sealed from the outside elements like it appears then heat will transfer down to it through the floors.
The exception could be if temps get unusually cold as in below zero. That was when our pipes originally failed.
Good luck with it.
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Old 11-02-2012, 07:41 AM   #11
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I have to laugh at the fire hazard of cutting a few probably less than a sq/ft holes.What about that 20 sq/ft opening I have thats called a doorway?
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Old 11-02-2012, 07:56 AM   #12
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I have to laugh at the fire hazard of cutting a few probably less than a sq/ft holes.What about that 20 sq/ft opening I have thats called a doorway?
Actually Sik, a barrier of any kind offers some kind of fire protection. Your doorway has a door correct? That door offers some kind of fire protection, the makeup of the door will determine what kind of protection.

I recently had a home inspection for a property I purchased in Gilford. One of the doors in the basement never had a door knob installed so there was a 2 1/2" hole through the door. Guess what, that was considered a fire issue. Your not only trying to stop flames but also deadly gasses from entering another part of the home.

Dan
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:23 AM   #13
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A hybrid approach to wrapping pipes might work and save you some $. If you wrap hot water pipes in insulating foam that will help keep pipes warm to prevent freezing AND it will keep your water warmer as it travels up to house. You could then put heat tape on cold water pipes to minimize risk of freezing.
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:39 AM   #14
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everyone is forgetting the old tride and true way Lightbulbs
They give off heat

You could wire some light sockets down there and leave some good old fashioned regular lightbulbs down there on, 25-45 watts would be fine, and would be a minimal electrical expense,
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Old 11-03-2012, 07:20 PM   #15
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You do need something good and permanent.

It's one thing if this is your own home and if problems arise then it is only your living space is disrupted.

It is completely different with renters. Renters want things fixed and fixed promptly. The renters are paying you money for a house that does not have pipe freezing issues.

So look for the bestest way of a solution.

You also if there is a land line put in a freeze alarm. That is not much of a good option if you are not around to go and unfreeze or provide extra heat to area.
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Old 11-04-2012, 04:30 AM   #16
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Default nhboat61

I have never heard of a poured basement having problems with pipes freezing unless there was a lose of power.
Can your pipes freeze? Yes they could, but there are a lot of things that people say could happen that never do. Some people worry about everything even things that are not likely to happen.
I'd take what the other person told you with a grain of salt and look into the probability of this happening before I took any precautions.
You have a poured foundation below ground level so the ground will never freeze below your foundation.
I do believe wrapping the pipes would be a wise decision either way.
Good luck.
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Old 11-04-2012, 02:43 PM   #17
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Put an electric baseboard heater down there.....Or a toe kick heater that has a fan in it, with a thermostat at the other end of the space. set it at 40 degrees.
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:26 PM   #18
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Default Don't worry

I bought a home 4 years ago with a crawl space, cement foundation and stone floor covered by plastic. The first floor joists are insulated and covered with plastic. I've never had to worry about freezing temperatures as the foundation provides enough insulation. My first floor forced hot water pipes run in this space also. I do keep 4-5 100 watt bulbs on 24/7 but that is more to take a bite out of humidity in the summer, and that's a different topic. I haven't even insulated the copper pipes, but that's on my list. I wouldn't worry, but take a temp reading in the winter to check.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:14 PM   #19
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Default Thanks everyone

Thanks for all the input. I think we took care of any concerns for now. The renter actually came up with an idea.. and cheap.

We have the light bulb over the point well and the pipes are wrapped. the plugged up any openings to the outside and firmed up the basement door with weather stripping and replaced some rotting wood.

We found a lint catcher for the dryer $14.00 ( the washer/dryer are in the basement) with a difuser. So instead of the heat from the dryer going outside, it is vents into he basement when they do the laundry ( 4x week) . We put up a tarp, sectioning off the area where the pipes are.
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:46 PM   #20
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Default Be Careful

If you go that route you will be adding moisture to the equation and will eventyually lead to mildew/mold. This was one of my problems in my attic that had bathroom vents from the previous owner terminating in it. I had to replace all the insulation and aggressively clean all the rafters and underside of the roof sheathing with aggressive chemicals. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't fun. The dryer will add much more moisture than a few showers a day.
I am working on a long term humidity solution for my crawl space but haven't committed to one yet other than running a fan out the window for most of the summer.
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:43 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nhboat61 View Post
... So instead of the heat from the dryer going outside, it is vents into he basement when they do the laundry ( 4x week).
Amen on Denny's comment on this. Venting a dryer inside is a definite no-no. You are asking for trouble if you do this, especially in an area isolated from the house and that is cold. Run a dryer vent outside - always.
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:52 PM   #22
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Quote:
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Run a dryer vent outside - always.
I feel the need to question this absolute Dick.

I have an electric dryer, located in a relatively open, heated, area where the air circulation will not be an issue. I use a central humidifier to add moisture to the air during the heating season.

As long as I have some type of lint filter, why would it be a problem to add this moisture, and heat, to the house?

(fwiw, new house, haven't done it yet. But don't understand why it would be a bad idea to keep the moisture and heat in the house where we want it)
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Old 11-06-2012, 10:26 AM   #23
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First, there is the matter of code. The 2009 version of the IRC spells it out. See comment #1 in this discussion:
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/...venting-inside

While some towns may still be governed by 2006 code, venting inside is a bad idea, for building science reasons. An electric condensing dryer can be vented inside, because the moisture is removed from the air. An unvented conventional electric dryer still dumps too much moisture into the air, even when it is felt that moisture is needed.

A house that has very dry air inside in winter is a leaky house. Take today, for example. The local weather has the dew point at 13 F. Outside air that leaks into the house through all the myriad cracks and holes in the outer shell of the house and gets warmed up to 68 F then has a relative humidity of less than 3%. That's really dry air, although it is mixed with air inside that has been humidified somewhat by human activity (breathing, cooking, bathing, plants, etc.). Air that leaks into the house is displacing other air already inside, which leaks out through other cracks and holes. That air passes through the walls and ceiling below the attic, where it contacts surfaces that may be below the dew point of the inside air. The wood absorbs the moisture, which can lead to rot and mold.

Of course a really leaky house may simply leak so much that the wall cavities are continually dried enough so that no moisture accumulation occurs. One way to address the symptom (dry air) is to tighten the building shell to reduce air infiltration. In a very tight house, built to be exceedingly tight, mechanical or passive (but controlled) ventilation must be provided, both to provide fresh air to the occupants and to avoid excessive inside humidity, even in winter. Human occupancy does humidify the air. In an older house, not built with tightness in mind, it would take extreme measures to tighten up the shell to the point where deliberate ventilation would be required. It's simply too difficult to get at all the leaks post-construction. Air sealing is still worth doing, however, and is the first thing to do to reduce heating cost (the "low hanging fruit").

Otherwise, addressing dryness by humidification can be overdone. That added moisture has to go somewhere, ultimately, and through the walls isn't a good idea.
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Old 11-06-2012, 11:02 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Denny Crane View Post
I am working on a long term humidity solution for my crawl space but haven't committed to one yet other than running a fan out the window for most of the summer.
I had $80,000 problem because of humidity in the crawlspace. Many sills and joisting were replaced. The contractor was surprised the condo unit did not cave in! I had mold and mildew problem to take care off. It was not pretty.

The solution to prevent future humidity is to cover the dirt foundation with 7 mil plastic sheeting, open faced floor insulation and added more oversized foundation vents. The vents were thermostatically controlled to close when the temperature falls below 70 degrees.>>
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:29 PM   #25
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There are heat exchangers that can be connected to your dryer discharge to take a good portion of the heat out and still vent the moisture outside.Here is one you can make yourself.
http://www.alkeng.com/AL/dryer
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:16 AM   #26
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Quote:
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I had $80,000 problem because of humidity in the crawlspace. Many sills and joisting were replaced. The contractor was surprised the condo unit did not cave in! I had mold and mildew problem to take care off. It was not pretty.

The solution to prevent future humidity is to cover the dirt foundation with 7 mil plastic sheeting, open faced floor insulation and added more oversized foundation vents. The vents were thermostatically controlled to close when the temperature falls below 70 degrees.>>
You know the lingo and have danced the dance! When we bought our home 4 years ago we had to sister the main carrying beam in our crawl space, and luckily there was stone and plastic in place. Plastic was also on the joists above covering the insulation. I got rid of all the old plastic on the floor and replaced with new, and got rid of anything kicking around on the ground, cardboard, wood, etc. I also put in a sump pump for when the water table rises.
I like your suggestion about thermostatically controlled vents, however before I jumped into this a couple of years ago I did some research and people down south were saying that when your vent operates in the summer it will be pulling in the humid air from outside(need an intake vent), making matters worse. I haven't done anything but put a window fan facing out, with no other window open to pull air in. I figured at least some air movement will help until I figure this out. I am nervous, however, of my Lowe's plastic fan running 24/7 catching fire! Dehumidifiers and even an air conditioner in the window well are things people have recommended but I'm not sure yet.
Sorry to get off topic, so adding more humidity with a dryer vent: no, no, no
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Old 11-07-2012, 01:44 PM   #27
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@Siksuker, European and Japanese electric dryers have heat exchangers built on to the back. They are way ahead of us. I saw one when visiting folks in Austria.


@Denny, The contractor that rebuilt the crawlspace had two commercial dehumidifiers running for several days in the crawlspace after work was finish. I was amaze at the amount of moisture they captured. My electric bill was the highest bill I ever paid!
Even if you have a fan drawing air out of the basement the air that it draws out has to be replaced by air somewhere. I think it is irrelevant.
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:52 PM   #28
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With a crawl space or basement there are a few different ways to insulate. If there are plumbing pipes or heating system down there the walls should be insulated. Many people insulate the ceiling of a basement or crawl. In MOST cases this is the wrong way. By insulatiing the ceiling you are pushing the plumbing and/or heating system out side the heating envelope. This cause efficiency/comfort issues due to unused heatloss from any heatsource and pipes to freeze.

This is true with a unisulated basement. People don't realize a 8-10'' thick concrete wall has the same R-value(heat conductiving rating) as a .75'' sheet of plywood.

This can be something you can address and often times by fixing eleminate the need for a heater down there all together while making you house more efficient and comfortable.
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Old 01-03-2013, 08:42 AM   #29
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This is true with a unisulated basement. People don't realize a 8-10'' thick concrete wall has the same R-value(heat conductiving rating) as a .75'' sheet of plywood.
.
Very true however,Most basements are just that,in the basement and mostly below grade so the ground becomes your insulation.
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:22 AM   #30
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Very true however,Most basements are just that,in the basement and mostly below grade so the ground becomes your insulation.
We went up our camp this past weekend. It has a 24" crawl space under with skirting covered with 2" insulation with 3 feet of snow banked up all around. Temp outside was down near zero when we got there but the area we have taken off of heat and drained the pipes to conserve fuel was at 42 degrees.
Ground heat coming up keeping it warm? Not sure but it definitely wasn't heated by me, either way I was happy.
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:25 AM   #31
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Very true however,Most basements are just that,in the basement and mostly below grade so the ground becomes your insulation.

This is true with below grade but the heat loss above grade is tremedous. Any time you have a surface area gaps and voids of 5% cut your R value in half. So basically the heat is rushing to the uninsulated above grade portion at such an accelerated rate it doesn't matter what is going on below grade. Insulation to 1ft below grade is the most cost effective way of going about it. The only difference is when you have a rock wall foundation you want to bring the foam down to the floor to get the foundation air sealed preoperly.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:53 AM   #32
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Quote:
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....Insulation to 1ft below grade is the most cost effective way of going about it.
I think that depends on your definition of "most cost effective." Given that code requires footings to be 48" below grade, to ensure they're being below frost line, the soil can be quite chilly well below the first foot. Also, the concrete conducts heat readily (R nominally only 0.08/inch), so that inside heat absorbed by the concrete well below a short insulated area will be conducted upward to the above ground portion as well as directly outward to chilly ground. If it's deemed worthwhile to insulate part of the foundation wall, it's worth it to insulate all the way down to floor level. Aside from fuel savings, the dramatic improvement in comfort in the basement will be worth it. The floor above the basement ought to feel warmer above also, if uninsulated.
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:16 PM   #33
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Default thank you all - follwo up

I want to say thanks for all the advice on my original post. So far, we have maintained about 45-47 degrees all winter in the basement using the dryer vent system.

There appears to be no evidence of any moisture or mold at this time something we have to monitor .
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