Sail Rigging Question

[jmen24]

OK, so I have been hunting for years for a sailing rig setup for one of my canoes, well I found some pieces that will work and matched with templates from a 1930's Old Town sailing setup, I am set to get started this spring on this project.

The question. I have a mast and sail from a sunfish that should work quite well, for this application, but I cannot find a good diagram of how the sail should be rigged to the boat to provide the proper swing and adjustment in the horizontal boom. Does anyone have something that would show this? Even if it is on a sunfish itself, I can transfer the process to my application. I know how the mast itself will attach and allow for movement, just the lines and anything else that makes life simpler is what I am in need of.

The sail is still attached to the mast and horizontal boom, the rudder will be converted to a pull-pull tiller set-up (maybe, I am going to try it first with the extended handle to see how it feels), the leeboards are templated from the Old Town set-up (my wife's uncle has this set up on a XL Tripper and uses it, but I need to be up and running prior to the 8 hour journey to his place in maine this spring) but not having it set up for review is leaving me scratching my head.

Oh, yea and having no experience with a sailing craft does not help either. Bet you couldn't tell, what with my completely correct use of terms.
By the way, tips and clarification is well excepted, official instruction will take place in Maine from the UIL.

The boat receiving the conversion is a OT Tripper, it will be removable as this is a good solo poler and family paddler.

[Dave R]

http://www.laserperformance.com/asia...unfish(US).pdf

That doc has very clear photos.

[NoBozo]

First off....a Canoe is not a Sunfish. A Sunfish is a wide and stable platform for the Sunfish rig. That's the way it was designed. However, It IS feasible to install a Complete Sunfish rig in a canoe. The first problem is how far Aft....OR ..Foreward... in the boat ..relative to the leeboard location..(fore and aft)...will the free standing Sunfish mast be placed in the canoe. This will have to be trial and error. The boats sail area wants to be balanced fore and aft against the leeboards..centerboard, resistance, etc..

The lee boards...fore and aft location will be balanced against the sail area. If not, the boat will want to veer off to one side..beyond your reasonable control.

More importantly..Erecting a free standing mast in any boat needs a solid socket for the butt of the mast.....because there is no other rigging to hold the mast up.

Another Delema is...the Sunfish sail is full bodied (sloppy..deep draft) and as such will likely overpower a canoe (narrow beam) with the draft of the sail. The second problem is the Sunfish sail AREA may be too much for a canoe. The canoe does not have the beam that a Sunfish has to support the lateral force the wind will apply through a deep draft sail.

Deep draft sails provide good power in light winds. When the wind picks up you want to reduce the draft to reduce the power. A Sunfish sail really doesn't provide this flexibility. Higher winds and higher boat speeds want a sail with much less "draft"....ie FLAT. BOTTOM Line: You will have to experiment.

If you are serious about sailing canoes..Google "Rob Roy Canoes".

It can be done but it will take some experimenting and patience to get it right. NB

[ApS]

Originally Posted by jmen24

"...I have a mast and sail from a sunfish..."

A sailing canoe was my first sailboat... ...so I can say with confidence—"Start Over".

Though I had a lot of fun with it (and never tipped it over), it was fully designed by Grumman: Even then, the Grumman kit only had the sail size right, and had to be re-engineered everywhere else!

You need about 45 square feet of sail, and the Sunfish sail has 75. A Sunfish sail would be fun "off the wind", but returning home would be a chore—and sometimes impossible.

The rudder was an adequate size, but the original Grumman kit had an unmanageable tiller. I converted to a design of my own using a long wood tiller with a swivel-and-notch for changing tacks (centered in the boat). The push/pull design (which I had in my sailing kayak) is adequate—but only OK. There are times you need a lot of muscle to operate that design.



There's a lot of help on the Internet, but to get all the necessary parts "operating as a team", you have weeks of experimenting ahead.

The above appears to be about the ratio of sail-to-leeboard you need, but still—I'd begin with a kit.

[fatlazyless]

Nice looking sailing canoe, but such a TINY SAIL!.....APS..... and, by the way, that is MIT, the Harvard sailboat house, the Charles River, and Memorial Drive.

Believe the sail on a Sunfish is a gaff-rig sail, as the sail has two booms, on both top & bottom.

For a sailing canoe, it would probably be helpfull that the canoe has a small 1" or 3/4" keel running all along the bottom. Most aluminum canoes have a keel, while many plastic & fiberglass canoes do not.

Canoes are much more stable when the single occupant sits in the middle, and down low. I have a 17' aluminum canoe with a sliding seat rowing rig, outriggers and two 7 1/2" oars, and it is pretty stable, even in 18" boat wakes.

How's about sitting in the very middle of the canoe down low, and stepping the mast just behind the front seat....maybe attach the mast to the back of the front seat....and into a socket screwed to the floor... and a couple el cheapo $1.50 black plastic cleats installed on either side for tying off the sail while underway.

VIP Auto sells some decent quality black inner tubes, $15.00, pickup truck tire big, and it would not be a bad idea to have two inner tubes, front & rear, tied in place, for extra floatation.

[jmen24]

Ok, thank you for the responses. The kit that I am modeling the components from as mentioned is a 1930's Old Town Kit, the only thing different is the rudder setup (not interested in drilling a bracket below water line), but everything else is as this link shows. So in theory I am using a canoe sailing kit, but I was not interested in paying $300-$500 for a mast and sail. I had contemplated manufacturing my own mast and boom out of Ash, but I took the opportunity to get the sunfish setup when it presented itself.

http://dragonflycanoe.com/otacc/index.html All the wood components will be manufactured by myself and the mast step will be the only permanent fixture in the boat, for obvious reasons. I build furniture as a hobby as well as a side job for my current company for custom built-ins and cabinetry.

Is there a tried and true way to reduce the size of the sail, by moving things around in the hardware and sewing the sail size down, I will have to look the sail and mast over to verify if this is even possible. I know I want to keep the horizontal boom as close to the gunwales as possible to help balance things, so if the size gets reduced the height of the mast will be shortened to keep things low.

I have heard that the balance between the mast and the leeboards is a trial adventure (as well as very critical), but is there a common ratio for mast location based on length of vessel, it will be more than difficult to relocate that aspect of things. I don't want to just pull a measurement off the XL Tripper as it is 4 feet longer and has a 8" or so wider beam, even after scaling out, it may not be the same. It is suprising difficult to find the installation instructions for the original kit, which I am sure would explain this aspect.

Anyway, thanks for the help, my port of sail will be a friends property on Silver Lake in Tilton, usually very calm and little traffic by way of boats.

[NoBozo]

Here's a little item (Link Below) you will find handy when determining the location for the mast/sail and the leeboards. One thing to keep in mind about the leeboards. The leeboards hang from a pivot bolt near the top of the board. When you LIFT the board up at various angles during sailing, the center of resistance will move farther AFT the higher you pick up the boards....making the boat fall off the wind more. This is "Lee Helm". This alters the balance between the center of effort (the sail) and the center of resistance (The boards). So after sailing the boat, you can move the entire lee board fixture forward just a little so you can have the adjustment work both ways.

So this will allow you to fine adjust the balance while sailing when you encounter "weather helm" or "lee helm". The rudder takes care of Lee helm and Weather helm normally, but board adjustment helps take some of the effort out of steering in brisk conditions.

If you make your mast "Step" with lets say Three different sockets in a row... fore and aft, maybe 3 inches apart, this will give you further options for balancing the boat for different loads and conditions. Eventually you will settle on ONE location and use that location most of the time.

The Length of the boat BTW is completely irrelevant to this exercise. As a general rule, a longer boat will go faster.

BTW: Sailing a canoe will NOT be a "Sit in the bottom of the boat" on a cushion with a cocktail in your hand experience. You WILL be required to be Very Agile and ready to SIT up on the rail at an instants notice to prevent capsizing in a puff. NB


http://www.seawindrc.com/sail%20maki...f%20Effort.asp

[jmen24]

NoBozo, Thanks.

My wife has ridden in her uncles setup and from both her and his accounts it is an activity more than a leasure. Sounds like fun and frustration all mixed in, I can't wait.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by jmen24

Ok, thank you for the responses. The kit that I am modeling the components from as mentioned is a 1930's Old Town Kit, the only thing different is the rudder setup (not interested in drilling a bracket below water line), but everything else is as this link shows. So in theory I am using a canoe sailing kit, but I was not interested in paying $300-$500 for a mast and sail. I had contemplated manufacturing my own mast and boom out of Ash, but I took the opportunity to get the sunfish setup when it presented itself.

http://dragonflycanoe.com/otacc/index.html All the wood components will be manufactured by myself and the mast step will be the only permanent fixture in the boat, for obvious reasons. I build furniture as a hobby as well as a side job for my current company for custom built-ins and cabinetry.

Is there a tried and true way to reduce the size of the sail, by moving things around in the hardware and sewing the sail size down, I will have to look the sail and mast over to verify if this is even possible. I know I want to keep the horizontal boom as close to the gunwales as possible to help balance things, so if the size gets reduced the height of the mast will be shortened to keep things low.

I have heard that the balance between the mast and the leeboards is a trial adventure (as well as very critical), but is there a common ratio for mast location based on length of vessel, it will be more than difficult to relocate that aspect of things. I don't want to just pull a measurement off the XL Tripper as it is 4 feet longer and has a 8" or so wider beam, even after scaling out, it may not be the same. It is suprising difficult to find the installation instructions for the original kit, which I am sure would explain this aspect.

Anyway, thanks for the help, my port of sail will be a friends property on Silver Lake in Tilton, usually very calm and little traffic by way of boats.

1) Except for the largest powerboats, traffic shouldn't matter: a dedicated sailcraft has the "right-of-way" 99.9% of the time. It is wind velocity that will affect sail efficiency and stability. (A canoe can "ghost-along" in less than 5-knots of wind—with not even a ripple of breeze in sight: paddled canoes are too noisy, )

2) You will have to keep the boom low: sitting low also aids in stability. (However, leeboards and sail—used together—provide a surprising amount of stability).

3) Among designs, the ratio between mast and leeboard spacing is highly variable. I suspect the leeboards will be fully adjustable for fore-aft location. Consider adding short wave-deflectors behind the leeboards. At higher speeds, my Grumman-designed leeboards scooped water directly into the canoe. I'd use hardwood and wouldn't skip on thickness—('cause under 7/8", they'll bend under the canoe).

Ask me how I know.

4) Stock, your used sail is worth about $75. (A new Sunfish sail is $150). With the sail desired "down-low", you should also opt for a clear vinyl window—for still more bucks. A proper sewing with dacron thread would cost even more above that. You would also need to shorten the aluminum spars by cutting.

Most brand-new sailing rig designs for canoes have relatively tiny sails. The Alcort "Minifish" and Alcort "Sailfish" rigs are already short and readily available via the forum for Sunfish.

5) All that said, the Sunfish's "lateen" sails have an easy way to reduce sail efficiency (termed, "de-powering the rig"). Simply remove the original rings that hold the sail: use cord in their place and allow an inch or so of [sail] space between both boom and [upper] spar.

In the photo below, I thought myself very adventurous as a teen; however, in an aluminum Grumman canoe like mine—in the 50s—an American adventurer crossed the Pacific! The difference in rigs was that he had two smaller "gunter-rigged" masts and sails for a lower center of effort (stability) and ease of de-powering.

[NoRegrets]

I have an old "Snark" from the mid seventies that has not been out of the shed in 30 years. This is an exciting thread that is making me think that my Oldtown canoe now needs an upgrade. Thanks to all of you for the entertainment on this thread!

[Rattlesnake Gal]

July 2004, our boys got creative one day and turned our old canoe into a sailboat with a tarp.

APS, your picture is just great!

[Dave R]

Jatoba would be a great wood to use for the leeboards. The stuff is outrageously stiff and tough. It's also nice looking and pretty inexpensive.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by jmen24

"...I have been hunting for years for a sailing rig setup for one of my canoes..."

OK, you've found yours...here is another sailing rig available in the Forum's Classifieds right here:

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...?do=ad&id=1903