Ethanol

[NoBozo]

FWIW: I'm a big skeptic when it comes to "Miracle" solutions to solving 'Mechanical" problems caused by Ethanol in the gas. In this case, the Ethanol we are being forced to live with in the fuel we use in vehicles and machines that remain Stored for six months or more at a time, and even then may not be used on a regular basis... "In Season".

A friend of mine has a 23 year old Honda Gold Wing (motorcycle) that gets used "maybe" 200 miles a year. He has been using "Star-Tron" additive in the gas for quite some time now and the MC runs fine. I have not been so lucky with my own 19 year old Yamaha Venture (motorcycle) using Sta-Bil. In my case the MC runs fine ABOVE 2500 RPM..but won't idle. Low speed jets probably "gummed up". BIG Pain to get the Carbs out of the bike. Carb kits hard to find for a 19 year old MC.

SO: I'm going to try the Star-Tron in the boat which had it's first outing yesterday, using the last of the NON Ethanol gas I got at Fay's last season.

Below is a link to the Star-Tron website. There's a lot of "Razzle Dazzle" in the article which a Chem Major might enjoy but not much for a "Regular" person, but I thought I would link to it anyway for your reading pleasure. If anyone has any Info from a source that isn't Selling a product, which might be in plain English, I'd like to see it. NB


http://mystarbrite.com/startron//con...14/37/lang,en/

[trfour]

Dennis Kirk should be able to help you with carb kits and additives.
Look under Metric Bikes.

http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/common/Frontpage.jsp

Hope this helps

[Rubberguy]

I am a chem major (33 years in industrial chemistry) and must confess I have never encountered a non-aqueous enzyme. At first read, I thought that you can accomplish the same thing with acetone which will disolve water and yet stay in solution in the gasoline. Methyl alcohol does the same thing (dry gas) but is not as efficent. Gums and varnish can also be dissolved using xylene as an additive. Xylene is a bit hard to find, but I believe Home Depot has it near the paint department. Be careful with it though, it will eat paint!

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Rubberguy

I am a chem major (33 years in industrial chemistry) and must confess I have never encountered a non-aqueous enzyme. At first read, I thought that you can accomplish the same thing with acetone which will disolve water and yet stay in solution in the gasoline. Methyl alcohol does the same thing (dry gas) but is not as efficent. Gums and varnish can also be dissolved using xylene as an additive. Xylene is a bit hard to find, but I believe Home Depot has it near the paint department. Be careful with it though, it will eat paint!

Hi Rubberguy. I just KNEW you were technically informed. I think the screename gave it away. I'm a retired mechanical engineer. I asked you in the "Engine Stalls" Thread what would be a good substitute for Nitrile Rubber in an Ethanol envirnment.

My saved technical data (when I retired) concerning "materials" is almost 30 years old. I used to work in the nuclear industry and "Ethylene Propylene" was the stuff we used for seals in nuclear applications. ...Now we have Ethanol. What do you think?

The other consideration is....what is available to the common man without having to order a minimum 1000 pieces. NB

[chipj29]

My question regarding ethanol is when will manufacturers begin to design engines and components around the use of ethanol? Have they already started? I know that GM has some vehicles that are adaptable up to E-85 I think. Will boat manufacturers do the same?

[robmac]

I think the problem with boat manufacturers make that change is need. I travel for a living and overall not much of the country is currently using ethanol enriched fuel. My 02 boat is fuel inj. and have had no problems running the fuel but I also empty the tank prior to winter storage with startron in tank.

[BroadHopper]

I have a boat built in 1978. Last year I trailered my boat down to VA for a several weeks while I was on contract work. Because of ethanol I encountered a major problem. According to the marine mechanic, I had a fibreglas tank with a rubber membrane. The ethanol softened the rubber and the rubber was melting. So he says. I had to put in a new metal gas tank. replace all the rubber gas lines, and replace all the gaskets in the carbureator to newer materials. About $4000 later, I am hearing I am still not out of danger? Ethanol breaks down after a month?

Rubberguy. Care to comment on why ethanol is breaking down old rubber?
Or did I get taken by an unscrupulus mechanic?

[NoRegrets]

Not a boat but I have a Lexus that was recalled due to the ethanol. There were no plastic or rubber parts involved. I am not a chemist or metallurgist so I can’t offer the quality details that you guys did.

The recall was to replace the 8 fuel rails (there are individual injectors for each cylinder) were made of a metal that could corrode with the ethanol / water properties mix. They were fine with normal gas. Instead of risking a quality problem they replaced all models that had these parts. My car was an early edition of LS460L made for the 2007 model year. Once ethanol was known to Lexus they changed the parts in mid 2007.

Short version of the story – Ethanol can affect some metals and the byproduct of the corrosion may impact the injectors.

Now why did we get this bum product thrust on us?

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by NoRegrets

Now why did we get this bum product thrust on us?

Short answer:Al Gore types

[NoRegrets]

Al Gore and the group of greedy rich butchers that cut deep into others wallets for their personal gain. He should have stopped at inventing the internet! My blood pressure and temper boil at the thought of......Wait It Is Friday today. A few more hours and I am going to leave work and go to Winnipesaukee! Ah, now that's a better thought. Back to normal. C. J. Avery's for dinner and cocktails, back onto the boat for the night, Naswa for breakfast......

Have a safe and fun weekend all.

[Airwaves]

I was advised this season by a marina owner who carries both Star-Tron and Sta-Bill that the Sta-Bill formulated for ethanol was probably my better choice because I have an older boat (1990) with a metal gas tank. The Sta-Bill is supposed to prevent the reaction that some metals have that NoRegrets described in his Lexus recall.

I used Star-Tron on my outboard and while it got the engine running again with bad gas it didn't run well and still allowed a build up of sludge in the gas tank to the point where I by-passed the inboard tank in favor of portables, not something I want to do at the lake.

The other thing I am doing is keeping the gas tank full full full when I am not going to be using the boat for over a week. Leaves less room for moisture to form.

[robmac]

or the other school of thought,the moisture is absorbed by the alchohol it isn't just from condensation because it isn't a sealed but a vented system it will attract the moisture. I keep mt tank empty with seafoam and stabil for ethanol.

[Airwaves]

Actually since ethanol became an issue in my neck of the woods a few years ago I was told specifically to avoid any alcohol base gasoline storage treatment entirely!

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Actually since ethanol became an issue in my neck of the woods a few years ago I was told specifically to avoid any alcohol base gasoline storage treatment entirely!

I look at all gas treatments contents. Mosy of them are alcohol based. Including Seafoam. Stabil and Star-tron are not.

[Rubberguy]

You mentioned that you had used ethylene propylene for sealing in the nuclear industry. I can go along with that because typically you would be sealing water or some other polar fluid. EPR/EPDM (ethylene propylene/ethylene propylene diene monomer) are also very good against ethanol. The problem comes from the gasoline, it is non-polar and will swell the EPDM like a balloon. So the problem is one of compatiblity. There is a number that is called the solubility parameter and typically it reaches a maximum when the alcohol portion is at 15%. You might be able to actually increase the ethanol content and reduce rubber swell. (I'd try it in a beaker first!)

I'm concerned about the rust issue with the gas tanks from increased condensation in the tanks. I'll do some more reading on this issue and see what turns up. I know I don't really want to deal with a rusty tank in my '73 Coronado.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Rubberguy

You mentioned that you had used ethylene propylene for sealing in the nuclear industry. I can go along with that because typically you would be sealing water or some other polar fluid. EPR/EPDM (ethylene propylene/ethylene propylene diene monomer) are also very good against ethanol. The problem comes from the gasoline, it is non-polar and will swell the EPDM like a balloon. So the problem is one of compatiblity. There is a number that is called the solubility parameter and typically it reaches a maximum when the alcohol portion is at 15%. You might be able to actually increase the ethanol content and reduce rubber swell. (I'd try it in a beaker first!)

I'm concerned about the rust issue with the gas tanks from increased condensation in the tanks. I'll do some more reading on this issue and see what turns up. I know I don't really want to deal with a rusty tank in my '73 Coronado.

In my area: We used Ethylene Propylene in "Snubbers".. which were hydraulic cylinders designed to Limit Thermal or Seizmic (SP) movement of large pieces of machinery in a Nuclear Power plant. The fluid we used in the cylinders was Silicone based primarily because the fluid would be less likely to retain radio activity after an "Accident". We called it a LOCA. "Loss Of Coolant Accident". BUT..I guess this is getting more technical than necessary to the original conversation. Thanks for your input RG. NB

[Orion]

Originally Posted by Rubberguy

I'm concerned about the rust issue with the gas tanks from increased condensation in the tanks. I'll do some more reading on this issue and see what turns up. I know I don't really want to deal with a rusty tank in my '73 Coronado.

Aren't most metal tanks made of aluminum? All the ones I've ever seen are.

[NoRegrets]

Aluminum corrodes and leaves a whitish substance. I think it is Aluminum Oxide.

[hancoveguy]

Okay, here's one for you... We have read about the possible benefits of sta bil vs. startron. No where has anyone specified if the sta bil they were talking about was the regular sta bil (red) or the marine (blue) formula sta bil. It is my understanding that the marine sta bil is better or more powerful or more effiecient than the red sta bil. I have been using excessive amounts of marine sta bil with every fill up on the lake this summer (100% of the time I fill up at Melvin Village- valvtech) and have no negative results, coincidence or is it truly helping who knows. I do know I have been using the blue marine sta bil in my 96 Harley and my atv's and have no issues thus far.

Would be curious to hear the forum's thoughts on Blue Marine Sta Bil issue...

[LakeSnake]

Being a car guy I have read a lot about the ethanol issue and long term gas storage. In short the marine stabil is just a stronger version of the regular stabil. In theory because a boat is near the water and will be more likely to have condesation issues.

I would recommend the marine stabil as it is one of the few gas additives that does not have alcohol in it. Star tron and sea foam do have alcohol (if my memory serves me). The problem with ethanol gas (in addition the corrosive effects on older gas tanks) is the alcohol in the gas separates over time and is more likely to attract condensation. Adding more alcohol (star tron, etc) will only make the situation worse.

If you are going to use the gas within about two months then there is really no need to use an additive - but a lot of people do anyway (including my self) just to be on the safe side (it won't hurt). I add the "called for amount" with each gas purchase - some times a little more. But I would no go overboard as that stuff is expensive.

The most important time to add is when you are not going to use the gas within the two month period (i.e. winter storrage). This is when I would suggest making sure the gas tank is FULL to the brim (or really close) and add a good healthy overdose of stabil (while filling up so it mixes). Make sure the tank is full - less room for air and thus condensation - and water build up.

I have used this technique to store a car for the winter (5 months) and had no issues - stared right up in the spring. Just use up that tank of gas befoe buying more - to get rid of the old, overtreated gas.

Hope this helps - sorry I guess it wasn't really the short answere either.

P.s. - I would also recomend the regular stabil in other machinery (lawn mowere, etc) that gets stored for a period of time.

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by hancoveguy

Okay, here's one for you... We have read about the possible benefits of sta bil vs. startron. No where has anyone specified if the sta bil they were talking about was the regular sta bil (red) or the marine (blue) formula sta bil. It is my understanding that the marine sta bil is better or more powerful or more effiecient than the red sta bil. I have been using excessive amounts of marine sta bil with every fill up on the lake this summer (100% of the time I fill up at Melvin Village- valvtech) and have no negative results, coincidence or is it truly helping who knows. I do know I have been using the blue marine sta bil in my 96 Harley and my atv's and have no issues thus far.

Would be curious to hear the forum's thoughts on Blue Marine Sta Bil issue...

I have been using the Sta-bil formulated for ethanol. I believe it is blue, not the sta-bil I have used to store my lawnmower and snowthrower (now I'll be adding the Sta-bil formulated for ethanol there as well). I have been told that you can't over use the Sta-bil or Star-tron and I add it to every fill up.

I don't believe Star-tron has any alcohol.

I asked my mechanic about ValvTech and they said that while a stabilizer to combat the effects of ethanol is used you can't always be sure how much is used in the fuel you are getting. I guess it depends on who mixes it into their tanks. Some tests (I am told by my mechanic) have shown a low percentage of additive while others high. He did say he has had a number of boats in this season from people using ValvTech and no other additives.

Originally posted by LakeSnake

If you are going to use the gas within about two months then there is really no need to use an additive - but a lot of people do anyway (including my self) just to be on the safe side (it won't hurt).

Several marina operators and some articles I have read suggest that the phase separation begins after just two or three WEEKS! That's why I add it at every fill up and keep the tank full when I know I am not going to use the boat for awhile.

[LakeSnake]

Airwaves - I stand corrected - it is 2 weeks for phase seperation to start and it is Seafoam that has alcohol - not Star tron. Ikes - my memory is shot! Below is the URL for a site with some usefull info as well as the list of additives and alcohol content. At the bottom of the first one is a link to some additional marine info as well.

http://www.fuel-testers.com/fuel_add...reatments.html

http://www.fuel-testers.com/is_gas_a..._e10_list.html


Sorry - don't know how to get it posted as a link

[Seeker]

My 1999 Mercury Optimax manual doesn't mention ethanol at all. My 2003 4-stroke says it is not recommended and in no case can it exceed 10% ethanol or 5% methanol. It also says the following problems can occur with gasoline containing alcohol: corrosion of metal parts, deterioration of elastomers and plastic parts, wear and damage of internal engine parts, starting and operating difficulties and vapor lock or fuel starvation. They also suggest installing a water separating fuel filter.

As to Orions comment on gas tank materials many older craft had galvanized steel tanks and many newer ones have stainless steel.

I have a 1962 sports car that I dread running this stuff in but so far it's still working.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Seeker

I have a 1962 sports car that I dread running this stuff in but so far it's still working.

I have a 1956 British motorcycle (Ariel SQ4) with an SU side draft carburetter. I haven't used or stored it with E10 as yet but I am not much concerned about plastic or rubber parts in it. There aren't any. ALL the gaskets and seals are either Paper, Cork, or Leather, which "should".. hopefully....not be affected by E10.

As stated earlier, my 1990 Yamaha touring motorcycle (w/31,000 miles) is essentially "Dead In The Water" due to E10. NB

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by LakeSnake

Airwaves - I stand corrected - it is 2 weeks for phase seperation to start and it is Seafoam that has alcohol - not Star tron. Ikes - my memory is shot! Below is the URL for a site with some usefull info as well as the list of additives and alcohol content.

LOL....and I was going to post and say that you where wrong about STAR-TRON....

But don't worry we all have our slips now and again....

Now this is interesting to learn that Seafoam has alcohol in it, I have heard many people rave about it...... and I knew there was a reason I was cautioned away from it.....

[old coot]

I saw this ad for "real" gasoline in the Conway Daily Sun of June 2nd, 2010.
oc

After a year long search for a distributor,
Freedom Market is excited to be the only retailer in
the area to offer gas without ethanol.
Pure gas works better for any 2-cycle engine such as a
boat, lawnmower, chainsaw, or 2-wheeler.
Many older cars, motorcycles, boats and tools have
engines that run worse, or have parts that deteriorate,
when run on gasoline that contains ethanol. In
addition, ethanol leaves residue on valves and
other parts that can hinder performance.
The Freedom Market
Open 365 days a year for one-stop shopping.
Groceries, gas, cigarettes, beer, wine, hunting and fishing supplies.
Rt. 25 • Freedom • 539-7774
freedommkt@yahoo.com

[BroadHopper]

Wish a marina can use the same distributor for gas as the Freedom Market. It's a loooong haul to Freedom!

[townsde]

Originally Posted by hancoveguy

Okay, here's one for you... We have read about the possible benefits of sta bil vs. startron. No where has anyone specified if the sta bil they were talking about was the regular sta bil (red) or the marine (blue) formula sta bil. It is my understanding that the marine sta bil is better or more powerful or more effiecient than the red sta bil. I have been using excessive amounts of marine sta bil with every fill up on the lake this summer (100% of the time I fill up at Melvin Village- valvtech) and have no negative results, coincidence or is it truly helping who knows. I do know I have been using the blue marine sta bil in my 96 Harley and my atv's and have no issues thus far.

Would be curious to hear the forum's thoughts on Blue Marine Sta Bil issue...

I filled up my boat at Melvin Village this weekend and was told by Eric at the gas docks that they also add Startron to all of their fuel. He said he adds twice the recommended amount. That means you are getting the Valvtec and Startron both in their fuel

[old coot]

Originally Posted by old coot

I saw this ad for "real" gasoline in the Conway Daily Sun of June 2nd, 2010.
oc

After a year long search for a distributor,
Freedom Market is excited to be the only retailer in
the area to offer gas without ethanol.
Pure gas works better for any 2-cycle engine such as a
boat, lawnmower, chainsaw, or 2-wheeler.
Many older cars, motorcycles, boats and tools have
engines that run worse, or have parts that deteriorate,
when run on gasoline that contains ethanol. In
addition, ethanol leaves residue on valves and
other parts that can hinder performance.
The Freedom Market
Open 365 days a year for one-stop shopping.
Groceries, gas, cigarettes, beer, wine, hunting and fishing supplies.
Rt. 25 • Freedom • 539-7774
freedommkt@yahoo.com

I emailed this ad to some people who I thought would want to know about the availability ethanol free gasoline, one of whom is the General Manager of a long established Winnipesaukee marina. Here's what he said in his email reply.

"Thanks for the info. One never knows when something like this will be of benefit. I suspect this is gas coming from Montreal. We had an offer to take advantage of it but decided to not take advantage of it for a number of reasons. I hope it works for Freedom Market and I'm glad we still live in enough of a capitalist nation where something like this can be taken advantage of. Too bad we have to go to a foreign country because our own government has decided to take that decision away from us. Ethanol and marine use are not entirely compatible for sure."
oc