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Old 04-04-2012, 08:21 AM   #1
CateP
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Default Hot Water Problem

Hi Everybody-new home owner here and struggling with oil furnace operations after moving up from the land of natural gas.

My problem is that my hot water runs out really quickly. Morning shower, normal shower head, goes to luke warm within a few minutes. Can't fill a tub very fast--takes 20 minutes at low flow rate. The domestic hot water is tankless and created by the boiler coils. No indirect storage tank. I've talked to a couple of plumbers and the oil furnace cleaning guy at Eastern Propane.

So here are my options and I'd like opinions:
  • Acid wash coils to remove sediment
  • Replace coils
  • Install $$ indirect tank (40 gallons, 60 gallons?)
  • Install Rinnai propane tankless water heater $$$

I am joining a group that installs solar hot water systems for homeowners based on the "barn raising" concept. (everyone helps a homeowner with the install and then when it's your turn everyone helps you) I have a very nice south -facing roof and a solar system would be great, but I'm probably looking at a couple years down the road.

Bottom line question--what is the best (and most cost effective) solution to my hot water problem at this time?
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Old 04-04-2012, 08:30 AM   #2
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if were me I would look into a tankless systems, but at least move to a separate water tank and would go to a 40 gallon if just you most of the time, 60 if you expect guests a lot!!
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Old 04-04-2012, 08:41 AM   #3
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We have hot water using coils in the oil furnace and no external tank. You can run one shower as long as you want and two for normal shower duration. We never run out of hot water.

Replacing the coils may be the least expensive near term fix if you are thinking of solar down the road.

For a separate external unit 40 gal should be fine for one or two people but a 60 gal unit may not cost a lot more as installation charges should be about the same for 40 or 60. The 60 gal unit may be better on any future home resale.
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:28 AM   #4
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I'm with Slickcraft on this one.I think my coil was around $50 when I changed it 5 years ago.Mine had a leak.I have plenty of hot water and never run out.1000,000 btu boiler.Also check to see if your boiler temp is possibly set too low.Should be around 170-180ish.
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:46 AM   #5
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Tankless hot water is nice because it only has to keep three or four gallons of water hot ALL the time...which also likely supplys hot water for baseboard heating. With a seperate 60 gallon hot water heater, (as an add on to the tankless if you want,) you have to keep 60 gallons of water at 180 degrees ALL the time, so it's going to be more expensive.

There are "Upper' and "Lower" temperature limit switches on the furnace inside a little tin (Honeywell) box, that can be adjusted (within limits) to adapt to your showering style. We keep our lower limit at 140 and the upper limit at 180 degrees. That's probably as low as you would want to go. You can raise both limits to say 160 and 200 respectively, using the little adjustment knobs inside the box.

When the water temp drops to 160, the furnace will come on for as long as it takes to get the temp up to 200, at which point the furnace will go off. If you are taking a shower during this cycle, it will take longer. I don't think I would raise the upper limit beyond 200. (Don't want the water to boil. ) NB

EDIT: Set the upper limit "at least 20 degrees above the lower limit."

EDIT 2: I think I would use the system As Is for awhile until you become more familiar with how it works.
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:08 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by NoBozo View Post
Tankless hot water is nice because it only has to keep three or four gallons of water hot ALL the time...which also likely supplys hot water for baseboard heating. With a seperate 60 gallon hot water heater, (as an add on to the tankless if you want,) you have to keep 60 gallons of water at 180 degrees ALL the time, so it's going to be more expensive.

There are "Upper' and "Lower" temperature limit switches on the furnace inside a little tin (Honeywell) box, that can be adjusted (within limits) to adapt to your showering style. We keep our lower limit at 140 and the upper limit at 180 degrees. That's probably as low as you would want to go. You can raise both limits to say 160 and 200 respectively, using the little adjustment knobs inside the box.

When the water temp drops to 160, the furnace will come on for as long as it takes to get the temp up to 200, at which point the furnace will go off. If you are taking a shower during this cycle, it will take longer. I don't think I would raise the upper limit beyond 200. (Don't want the water to boil. ) NB

EDIT: Set the upper limit "at least 20 degrees above the lower limit."

EDIT 2: I think I would use the system As Is for awhile until you become more familiar with how it works.
I think there is a bigger problem here because I am running out of hot water very quickly. The furnace cleaning guy was here yesterday as was a plumber and I assume both looked at the temperature settings.
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:27 PM   #7
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Default Rinnai propane tankless water heater

Yes, it is a lot of dollars but tankless propane is wonderful. Solar is OK, but battery backup during no sunshine would drain the reserve I would guess pretty fast. We have had the tankless for 4 years now and couldn't be happier. Plus, having propane on site is a nice if you decide to get a generator for power outages. Which I hear happens every so often.
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:38 PM   #8
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I installed a 60 gallon Super stor off of my boiler in place of the tankless coil and am very pleased with the results. Super store also makes a tank for solar which is backed up by a boiler (I don't think the fuel source matters), this would probably work for you, install it now on your boiler, then when you are ready you can hook up the solar. Solar is expensive to install, but oil isn't cheap any more either.

Good luck.

http://www.htproducts.com/superstorsolarrange.html
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:22 PM   #9
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Arrow Down the road.

If you are planning on solar down the road, why not upgrade the current system so that it is a backup to the solar system?

First of all, I will not let a plumber tell me my heating requirement needs. I would call an HVAC contractor. One of the best in the area is Jeffery Seymour on Gilford Ave in Laconia. He is extremely knowledgeable of the latest in gas appliances. He is honest to a fault, he was a minister.

In my case, I had a plumber talking me into converting to an oil furnance with a seperate hot water holding tank. Big Bucks! I already have a NG furmance and an electric hot water heater.

Jeff installed a tankless NG furnance and domestic hot water. It is so small it hangs on the wall. It is so efficient the flue is PVC piping. I am extremely please with the system. Instead of cycling off and on the heating, it senses the outside temperature as well as the inside temperature and adjust the forced hot water temperature accordingly. Pretty slick!

While he was at it, he exended the gas lines to the kitchen stove, the clothes dryer and the fireplace. After swapping my appliances my electric bill was cut more than half, while I did not notice that must of an increase in my gas bill.
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Old 04-09-2012, 11:08 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadHopper View Post
If you are planning on solar down the road, why not upgrade the current system so that it is a backup to the solar system?

First of all, I will not let a plumber tell me my heating requirement needs. I would call an HVAC contractor. One of the best in the area is Jeffery Seymour on Gilford Ave in Laconia. He is extremely knowledgeable of the latest in gas appliances. He is honest to a fault, he was a minister.

In my case, I had a plumber talking me into converting to an oil furnance with a seperate hot water holding tank. Big Bucks! I already have a NG furmance and an electric hot water heater.

Jeff installed a tankless NG furnance and domestic hot water. It is so small it hangs on the wall. It is so efficient the flue is PVC piping. I am extremely please with the system. Instead of cycling off and on the heating, it senses the outside temperature as well as the inside temperature and adjust the forced hot water temperature accordingly. Pretty slick!

While he was at it, he exended the gas lines to the kitchen stove, the clothes dryer and the fireplace. After swapping my appliances my electric bill was cut more than half, while I did not notice that must of an increase in my gas bill.
It is so efficient the flue is PVC piping

It's called a high efficiency unit, all are vented with PVC.
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:39 PM   #11
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On a tankless system the most common problem with not having enough hot water can be the coils clogged with sediment and then the mixing valve that sets the water temp is another common problem. The valves fail clogging with scale and sediment and either jam or stick and sometime they move but are not adjusting the water mix. They are located just outside of the tankless coils on the out (hot) side and normally have a black plastic knob with some increment markings. The mixing valve mixes in cold water to adjust the hot water to the desired temperature. If it is not working properly you will get cool or limited hot water.

You also mentioned that the water pressure was low. Are you on a well or community water sytem? If you are on a well I would also check pressure tank at the pressure guage to see that the pressure is high enough - 30 pounds and more is normal. Community water should have sufficient water pressure. A clogged tankless coil or mixing valve can also reduce your water pressure/volume.

Hope this helps.
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:44 PM   #12
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Here is some more relevant information. The house was not occupied for almost two years. The furnace and house systems were shut down this past winter. The water for the house comes from a private well with no "treatment."

Eastern quoted me a price of $850 to replace coil.
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:30 PM   #13
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Here is some more relevant information. The house was not occupied for almost two years. The furnace and house systems were shut down this past winter. The water for the house comes from a private well with no "treatment."

Eastern quoted me a price of $850 to replace coil.

The house being vacant for 2 years would in my opinion be a root cause for your problems. I believe that the mixing valve and the tank coils are the culprit. I have seen the valve be the cause of water temp issues many times and it is the cheaper item to replace.
I would find a local plumber that is recomended by posters here. Since I do not live at the lake I have no one to suggest.
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:48 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CateP View Post
Here is some more relevant information. The house was not occupied for almost two years. The furnace and house systems were shut down this past winter. The water for the house comes from a private well with no "treatment."

Eastern quoted me a price of $850 to replace coil.
Wonderful concept - water heater part of boiler/heating system. Does not work in some circumstances - very well.

Tankless are great. You will need propane and you will need to vent it - normally throught the roof but can be power (electricity) vented out side. And all costs a great deal. And no one or few know how to fix these.

The advice above about installing a stand alone 30 or 40 gallon electric tank heater is a simple and less expensive alternative. They last 10 - 20 years. And then just buy another one.

Or bite the bullit and pay the $850.00 after shopping around for prices.
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:32 PM   #15
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If water filtration is added, no need to filter the water that goes to any outside fawcetts! Have plumber research & quote that separation of cold water.

Unfortunately, there is no one answer to all these issues. Hard water will definitely leave sediment and issues in mixing valves, etc.
Obtain multiple opinions and your own research.

If you ever think about having a hot tub spa, here's an idea to save the electricity to heat the water when it's filled or changed: have plumber install a hot water fawcett next to the cold. I added an inexpensive Y shaped hose thing to mix the hot & cold outside, then a short garden hose to fill hot tub. Thus, saving a lot of electricity and time to heat the water. In my town, the municipal water in winter is as cold as 34 degrees because the pipes are under the street and not insulated by snow! Hard to believe, but yes that cold.
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:01 PM   #16
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I agree with the others on checking your mixing valve. If it's not already turn all the way up you might want to try turning it up a bit. If it helps that might be the culprit.
Another option on a tank would be something like this tank from http://www.vaughncorp.com/SEPCO.pdf
I installed one a few years ago. It has two heat exchangers and electric. I reserved one heat exchanger for a future solar installation, the other I use off my pellet stove. You could use one for solar and the second one off your existing boiler. You could then switch to the electric as a primary or back-up source. It would give you a lot of choices for heating your domestic hot water depending on the season or fuel cost.
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:55 PM   #17
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IF YOUR OIL FURNACE is maybe near it's last legs, research.

I have friends who had a large old sausage-shaped boiler, which had to go. It was one zone for entire house. I can't remember their source of hot water, but may have been electric heater, very inefficient as I recall! They researched and decided on a propane system to heat existing baseboard hot water system. It's in basement and wall mounted direct vent system named Baxi. The installer was able to make several zones without lots of new plumbing. The domestic hot water is on-demand! They had south face on part of roof, and incorporated solar pre-heating of the tap water. In summer they might get all hot water needs, but they realize that it's pre-heating the water before it goes to the on-demand Baxi system...

I think you can search google for Baxi propane. Don't be mislead by quasi "solar installers". I am not a guru, but do research. South to southwest roof slopes are a must, and there is an ideal angle, but I can't tell you.
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:11 PM   #18
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IF YOUR OIL FURNACE is maybe near it's last legs, research.

I have friends who had a large old sausage-shaped boiler, which had to go. It was one zone for entire house. I can't remember their source of hot water, but may have been electric heater, very inefficient as I recall! They researched and decided on a propane system to heat existing baseboard hot water system. It's in basement and wall mounted direct vent system named Baxi. The installer was able to make several zones without lots of new plumbing. The domestic hot water is on-demand! They had south face on part of roof, and incorporated solar pre-heating of the tap water. In summer they might get all hot water needs, but they realize that it's pre-heating the water before it goes to the on-demand Baxi system...

I think you can search google for Baxi propane. Don't be mislead by quasi "solar installers". I am not a guru, but do research. South to southwest roof slopes are a must, and there is an ideal angle, but I can't tell you.
Oil furnace was new in 2003. Still has many years to go. Thanks for the other info on solar. It would be good to have a system that can integrate into a future solar system.
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:20 PM   #19
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what brand boiler do you have? Sounds like the coil is plugged, another coil type system will probably do the same unless you figure out why it is happening, usually hard water.
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:31 PM   #20
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what brand boiler do you have? Sounds like the coil is plugged, another coil type system will probably do the same unless you figure out why it is happening, usually hard water.
Boiler brand is "Ultimate". I'm thinking this a hard water issue that will keep repeating.
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Old 04-05-2012, 06:51 AM   #21
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Boiler brand is "Ultimate". I'm thinking this a hard water issue that will keep repeating.
That's the same boiler I have, it's a very good boiler. If money is an issue, I would do the acid wash and consider a water test/ softener. If money is not an issue, I would go with a superstor. You could also replace the tankless coil, the cost is $350 to $550 for a coil depending on the size, so the price you got isn't that far off, it's not a difficult job, drain the boiler, cut 2 pipes, unbolt the coil ( mine had stainless bolts), install new coil and gasket, solder pipes, fill boiler. You may want to get another quote to keep Eastern honest. I assume the guy you used made sure the mixing valve isn't the issue. Good luck.
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:20 AM   #22
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My there certainly are a lot of options and opinions out there...here's some more that I heard from people I called yesterday.

Propane tankless units last 10 years.
Oil fired indirect tank is more efficient and cost effective
Electric tank will cost less to install, but more in the long run


I think before I plunk down any amount of $$ I'm going to confirm that the mixing valve is indeed NOT the source of the problem.

Thanks to everybody who as chimed in here.

BTW-As far as usage goes, it is just me in the house full-time right now, but I plan on having visitors and maybe even a "special someone" some day.
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:51 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CateP View Post
My there certainly are a lot of options and opinions out there...here's some more that I heard from people I called yesterday.

Propane tankless units last 10 years.
Oil fired indirect tank is more efficient and cost effective
Electric tank will cost less to install, but more in the long run


I think before I plunk down any amount of $$ I'm going to confirm that the mixing valve is indeed NOT the source of the problem.

Thanks to everybody who as chimed in here.

BTW-As far as usage goes, it is just me in the house full-time right now, but I plan on having visitors and maybe even a "special someone" some day.
Cate;

I think that is a very wise choice to check the mixing valve before going any further. Normally with hard water, this is the first thing that goes. It's inexpensive and very easy to replace and would certainly be my first thing to look at.

Good Luck!

Dan
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Old 04-05-2012, 09:25 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CateP View Post
My there certainly are a lot of options and opinions out there...here's some more that I heard from people I called yesterday.

Propane tankless units last 10 years.
Oil fired indirect tank is more efficient and cost effective
Electric tank will cost less to install, but more in the long run

I think before I plunk down any amount of $$ I'm going to confirm that the mixing valve is indeed NOT the source of the problem.

Thanks to everybody who as chimed in here.

BTW-As far as usage goes, it is just me in the house full-time right now, but I plan on having visitors and maybe even a "special someone" some day.
I beg to differ on the oil fired indirect tank. Oil futures does not look good.

The best way to find out what is the most efficient way to heat your home and hot water is request an energy audit from PSNH. It will be the best $100 you ever spent! My gf 3,000 sq ft lake home uses less than $3000 in propane a year, including hot water, dryer, kitchen stove and propane fireplace!
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Old 04-05-2012, 10:14 AM   #25
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I beg to differ on the oil fired indirect tank. Oil futures does not look good.

The best way to find out what is the most efficient way to heat your home and hot water is request an energy audit from PSNH. It will be the best $100 you ever spent! My gf 3,000 sq ft lake home uses less than $3000 in propane a year, including hot water, dryer, kitchen stove and propane fireplace!
You get more BTUs output out of a gallon of oil then a gallon of Propane. And Energy North is selling Propane at $3.89/gal as of last week. I'm sure its going to go up more. My house was total electric back in 1979. I couldn't afford to heat with electric. I have a Super Store hot water tank running off a the propane furnace and it is less expensive to run then electric. I pre-buy propane so that saves me form the fluctuations in the market. Of course if the market goes down then I'm stuck.

Cate, go with the mixing valve. My son had the same problem with hot water and he replace the mixing valve. All fixed.
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:38 PM   #26
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Just some quick comments here...

-- replacing the coils should fix your problem as others have stated. However depending on your condition of your un treated well water you my find you have a problem again sooner then later. I had this type of system growing up, and with hard water with lots of sediment things clogged quickly.

-- I suggest putting in a whole house filter no mater what you do....

Now the option I saw no one discuss here, is switching your water heating, to an electric water heater. This is my recommendation... you will find that you have more consistent hot water....It also gives you the option, to run it off of Solar electricity down the road..... If you go this route make sure you invest in a high quality water heater, like Rheem/Rudd unit. There is simply no comparing these units to those bought at Home Depot or Lowes.

As for capacity I have a 40 gallon unit, and we usually get two good showers out of the 40 gallons in the morning 15 - 20 minutes each... with say 30 mins in between... The kids take showers at night 10-15 minutes each, back to back once again no problem....
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:56 PM   #27
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If I were you, I would get another opinion. I would call Wolfeboro Oil or Terry Biehl. They both do furnaces and plumbing.
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Old 04-04-2012, 03:34 PM   #28
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Default Water filtering

I notice you mention well water. In this geographic area the water is very hard. I would put in a water softener. If there is a lot of iron/mineral a filter should be used. You clothes will appreciate that.

Radon in the water is common. You may want to check that out and install a radon filter.

Once all this is taking care of, you will notice your pipes and hot water heater will last a lot longer!

As for drinking water, an osmosis filter is a lot cheaper in the long run than buying bottled water!
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:10 PM   #29
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Default I/we had similar problems

I would get a good plumber involved. It may or may not be the boiler coils. If you are on well water you can usually count on replacing things like the mixing valve, auto fill valve, and expansion tank due to well water sediment about every 10 years unless you have a filter on your water line.
I would go to an electric hot water heater or when you do have the problem fixed look into a timer for your boiler for the summer. We started last year turning off the boiler in the morning and turning it back on when we needed it, usually the next morning. And it only takes about 5 minutes for our water to come up to shower temp.
We saved ½ a tank of oil last summer doing this. That is about $400 in savings.
Good luck with your new house.
I am surprised the home inspector did not catch this problem.
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:03 PM   #30
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OMG Cate: With all this disparity in advice....You have a BIG problem deciding....WHO is right..?? Even I am distracted. NB

Cate: In spite of ALL this advice...It is NOT as complicated as it seems...............
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Old 04-05-2012, 06:13 AM   #31
Lakepilot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tis View Post
If I were you, I would get another opinion. I would call Wolfeboro Oil or Terry Biehl. They both do furnaces and plumbing.
Cate, I agree with Tis - you need a second opinion. Terry is a good guy and I'd add Scott Thurston to the list. Call Barbara Thurston at Thursty Water. Both Scott and Terry are in Wolfeboro.
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