Responding to situations that aren't clear

[Silver Duck]

into something really useful - an onging place where we could "educate" each other on the best way to respond to situations where that isn't clear.

I'll start off with an example and see if anybody else is interested! Let's pose a situation where one boat is up on plane and being overtaken by another boat that is going to pass well within 150 feet.

The first boat is, of course, the stand-on boat and is supposed to maintain course and speed. However, as soon as the second boat is within 150 feet, both are supposed to be at no wake speeds. So, what do all of you think is the first boat's best response? (Since it has no way to avoid violating one rule or the other, which one takes precedence?)

Silver Duck

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

into something really useful - an onging place where we could "educate" each other on the best way to respond to situations where that isn't clear.

I think you have an excellent idea and a very good example to lead off with!

Since I have been in the situation you have described as the stand-on vessel, I immediately throttle down or turn away. When one violates the 150' rule at speed, you never know what the next illegal act may be. I would rather throttle down or turn away (whatever the situation dictates) than continue the violation and close distance any further.

I think the principle behind the stand-on boat generally maintaining speed and course is to allow the other vessel ample opportunity to avoid closing within an unsafe distance, for example in an overtaking situation, by having a safe assumption of what the course and speed will be of the stand-on vessel.

What you have brought up involves a legal doctrine known as competing harms, that sometimes you must take an action that is technically improper to avoid the greater harm caused by present actions or action. This doctrine, recognized in New Hampshire (and cited by our Attorney General last week when she appeared before the United States Supreme Court) would pertain and protect in the situation you describe.

Finally, I think you stand much greater chance of being stopped and cited as the vessel initially infringing on the 150 rule than you do for being stopped as a stand-on vessel changing course or speed, unless those changes were reckless in nature!

Merry Christmas,

Skip

[Misty Blue]

Your idea for this thred can be fun and do some real good.

Now about the situation that you brought up.

As will often happen the NH laws deviate from the international laws and in my opinion tend to confuse what should be a simple situation.

I had a student who found himself in the same situation as Skip. The NHMP pulled them both over and fined them both. Skip, I think that I would have taken that one to court.

Inland and International NAVRULES "REQUIRE" the stand on vessel to maintain course and speed unless collision is imminent. This is to avoid confusion between the two vesels. That, by the way, is how they sunk the Andria Doria.

NH rules are different.

Section 270 D:2 has two relevant laws.

270 D:2 IV talks about passing situations and, in short, requires the passing vessel to keep out of the other's way, not to wake him and for neither to abruptly change course without making sure it is safe to do so. It does not actually give any vessel the "right of way".

270 D:2 VII states that the vessel with "the right of way" (I hate that term) shall hold it's course and "maintain such speed as the circumstances permit.
Now if that isn't crystal!

Skip, maybe you can make sence out of this mess. As for me I prefer to go by the COLREGS. They seem to work on every body of water that is not in New Hampshire.

Misty Blue

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Misty Blue

...270 D:2 VII states that the vessel with "the right of way" (I hate that term) shall hold it's course and "maintain such speed as the circumstances permit...

Here's the actual verbiage from that particular section:

TITLE XXII
NAVIGATION; HARBORS; COAST SURVEY
CHAPTER 270-D
BOATING AND WATER SAFETY ON NEW HAMPSHIRE PUBLIC WATERS
Section 270-D:2...

...VII. When a vessel is given the right-of-way, such vessel shall hold its course and maintain such speed as the circumstances prudently permit....

The operative phrase of concern being "as the circumstances prudently permit"

If another person is approaching me at speed when I am the the stand-on (or right-of-way) vessel, I will only maintain course if the circumstances prudently permit.

I will change course and speed to avoid enhancing the peril of the situation, if necessary, and use this particular phrase and the recognized doctrine of competing harms as my defense, if so cited.

I have attached the RSA covering competing harm for anyone's review...

Section 627:3
627:3 Competing Harms. –
I. Conduct which the actor believes to be necessary to avoid harm to himself or another is justifiable if the desirability and urgency of avoiding such harm outweigh, according to ordinary standards of reasonableness, the harm sought to be prevented by the statute defining the offense charged. The desirability and urgency of such conduct may not rest upon considerations pertaining to the morality and advisability of such statute, either in its general or particular application.
II. When the actor was reckless or negligent in bringing about the circumstances requiring a choice of harms or in appraising the necessity of his conduct, the justification provided in paragraph I does not apply in a prosecution for any offense for which recklessness or negligence, as the case may be, suffices to establish criminal liability.

Hope this helps clarify my position a little better,

Merry Christmas,

Skip

[Mee-n-Mac]

I'm in agreement with the prior answer, slow a bit, let the gap grow and then resume previous speed.

Now I've got one ... you and another boat are on an apparent collision course. He's coming from your port side, very nearly at right angles. You are thus the priveledged vessel and he should give way. Then he turns slightly to his port so your course is now slightly aft of beam. Since you left your protractor at home it's not clear if the crossing angle is more or less than 112.5 deg but you're right in that area. What do you do ?

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

...I'm in agreement with the prior answer, slow a bit, let the gap grow and then resume previous speed....

Gee, I never leave home without my protractor!

But, given your quiz question (which I shall annotate as Quiz question #2) I will steal your answer used in round #1, I would "...slow a bit, let the gap grow and then resume previous speed..." or make a slight turn to starboard if conditions allowed.

Hey, I see a trend developing already.....lets use common sense (ahhh, the one thing that we can't seem to legislate)!

Here's me question du jour:

You are tooling about the Lake on a straight course with no other vessels in sight well more the 150' from any other object. Suddenly you spot a periscope breaking water exactly 150' dead ahead of you. Do you maintain course because you believe you are the stand-on (or right -of-way) vessel or do you alter course or immediatley slow (remember, this is a fresh water submarine, but no cheating you ex-coasties, bubbleheads or skimmer pukes).



Merry Christmas,

Skip

[jrc]

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

...is up on plane and being overtaken by another boat that is going to pass well within 150 feet...Silver Duck

Shouldn't the overtaking boat should pass at a distance greater than 150'? Then there is no issue. If they don't then I guess you have to pick which rule to break as the others have discussed.

This is one of the weird things about the 150' rule, it doesn't really recognize who caused of the infraction. Say I'm cruising along on plane and another boat approches from astern or port, as soon as he gets within 150', we both need to slow down. This is true even if there is no collison danger or a passing situation.

[Misty Blue]

'Good one Skip!

'Spent six years on the boats but since I was just the silly ractor guy I think that we better pose your question to Silver Dolphin.

Misty Blue

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Misty Blue

'Good one Skip!

'Spent six years on the boats but since I was just the silly ractor guy I think that we better pose your question to Silver Dolphin.

Misty Blue

Spent six years punching holes in the water too, but did it all forward of AMR2....so I don't glow in the dark like you do! STS1/ss (SSBN 645 - Jimmy K.)

Although I did spend one patrol bunking in Missile lower level....some say the effects are apparent to this day!

Merry Christmas, even to a nuke bubblehead ,

Skip

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Skip

{snip}
You are tooling about the Lake on a straight course with no other vessels in sight well more the 150' from any other object. Suddenly you spot a periscope breaking water exactly 150' dead ahead of you. Do you maintain course because you believe you are the stand-on (or right -of-way) vessel or do you alter course or immediatley slow (remember, this is a fresh water submarine, but no cheating you ex-coasties, bubbleheads or skimmer pukes).
Skip

Well now do you want to know what I should do or what I would do if I were to spot a periscope arising from the lake ? Answering the latter: First I would probably swear profusely and in an inquisitive fashion (What the .... ?!?!?). Then I'd quickly turn so as to come into position to drop a shallow depth charge ! I may forget the protractor but I never leave home without my depth charges !

[Silver Duck]

I wasn't aware of "competing harms" as a legal concept. Basically, I go by "what ever's necessary to avoid anybody getting hurt"!

As for the sub, if it's at periscope depth, all I'd need to do is veer slightly to miss the conning tower (I only draw agout 3.5 feet).

Just to open things up a bit further, this might also be a good thread for folks that feel threatened to educate the rest of us about what they'd like to see as a response to common situations where no law is directly involved.

For instance, I'm on a crossing course with a sailboat, with plenty of room to pass either in front or astearn of him with way, way more than 150 feet between us (let's say maybe even a quarter mile or so.) But, which is better for the sailboat? Passing in front of him lets him cross my wake bow-on, but I would think that it's a bit more nervous-making.

Let's hear from some of the sailboaters!

Silver Duck

[Misty Blue]

Kona Chick,

I think that Skip was not talking about breaking laws whenever hee feels, but about conservative operation. Too conservative IMO but the right idea.

COLREGS (Yea I know, this is NH) "REQUIRE" the stand on vessel to take action and not maintain course and speed to avoid a collision if a collision is imminent. Skip and I just seem to disagree on just when to make the call.

By the way Skip I was on the Batton Rouge which was distroyed by a collision at sea! (I wasn't driving!)

Mee-n-Mac. The above is the answer to your question. If Captain Bonehead is on your port side and turns to port, if collision is imminent you Gota.....
If the Stockholm had not maintained course and speed the Andria Doria would be sunning folks in the Carib. today! Well, maybe not.

Misty Blue

[KonaChick]

Misty Blue, I was commenting on pm203's post a few back...it's highlighted in my post..thanks!

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Misty Blue

Mee-n-Mac. The above is the answer to your question. If Captain Bonehead is on your port side and turns to port, if collision is imminent you Gota.....
If the Stockholm had not maintained course and speed the Andria Doria would be sunning folks in the Carib. today! Well, maybe not.

Misty Blue

Yup, really not rocket science here. I was trying to illustrate the case where a boater would be on the dividing line between two opposing courses of action. For QQ#2 it was the case of deciding between being the stand-on vessel in a crossing situation and being the give-way vessel in an overtaking situation (where 22.5 deg aft of beam is the demarkation between crossing and overtaking). In real life it can be hard to know just what your angle is with respect to the other vessel. COLREGs require you assume you're the overtaking/give-way vessel whenever the situation is not clear, which for the pleasure craft we use on the lake is also the common-sense thing to do.

One other thing, perhaps more inline with what SD may have intended, is what else (other that reducing speed) would you do. Normally I like to indicate my intentions to give-way in a crossing situation by a deliberative turn to starboard (so that my new course is aft of the other vessel) that almost instantly can be recognized by the stand-on vessel. It's quicker, easier to recognize that a collision has been avoided than by simply slowing alone ... which leads my to ask if everyone knows how to tell when you're on a collision course. Perhaps there are some boating newbies that haven't learned that yet ??

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

... which leads my to ask if everyone knows how to tell when you're on a collision course. Perhaps there are some boating newbies that haven't learned that yet ??...

...Ah, zero bearing rate....bad thing to have when coming to periscope depth.....or tooling about the Lake...but I'll let you explain it in layman's terms after everyone has a chance to digest it!

This is a fun thread thanks again SD!!!!

Merry Christmas,

Skip

[KBoater]

Are you sure it's a periscope?? It could be Winnie Diver checking you out?

[Misty Blue]

Me-N-Mac...

A collision course is defined (at least in my books) as a vessel on a steady ralative bearing with a decreasing range.

BTW. Your method of changing course to reflect your intent is just right and for the right reasons. We recomend a course change of > 40 degrees. Changes in speed are hard to interpret.

OK, Here is a new one...

What are the sound signalsfor:

A turn to Starboard?

A turn to Port?

Astern operation?

Rounding a bend (like the south side of Bear Island)?

Extra credit: What does one long and two short blasts mean?

[jrc]

Two for port, one for starboard, I can't remember the rest.

Does anyone use these on Winnipesaukee? The only time I've ever heard a sound obviously used as a signal was the Mount backing out of the Weirs. I can't remember what signal she used.

I've heard plenty of horn honks, but none obviously a signal. I interpreted most as "hey, look" And a few as "hey get out of my way"

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

For instance, I'm on a crossing course with a sailboat, with plenty of room to pass either in front or astearn of him with way, way more than 150 feet between us (let's say maybe even a quarter mile or so.) But, which is better for the sailboat? Passing in front of him lets him cross my wake bow-on, but I would think that it's a bit more nervous-making.

Let's hear from some of the sailboaters!

Silver Duck

Silver Duck,

Pass to the rear, although I'm sure this doesn't apply to you, most of the motor boaters out there think that sailboats are stationary and end up way too close when they try to pass to the front. Also because of wind variations sailboats speed up and slow down, especially on gusty days. Lastly if a sailboat is sailing toward the shore, give it a wide berth. The sailboat is probably tacking to head upwind and will soon be coming about, changing direction. Wakes generally aren't a problem because there is a large sail above the water and some sort of keel below the water that tend to stabilize things.

[Misty Blue]

The last time that I used the sound signals on the Lake the other guy waved back at me with a Budwiser!

Misty Blue

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by MistyBlue

OK, Here is a new one...

What are the sound signalsfor:

A turn to Starboard?

A turn to Port?

Astern operation?

Rounding a bend (like the south side of Bear Island)?

Extra credit: What does one long and two short blasts mean?

While I recall the inland rules are defined slightly differently from the international rules, I believe thet amount to the same thing. 1 blast for a turn to starboard (I will pass you on my port side). 2 blasts for port (I will pass you on my starboard side) and operation astern is 3 blasts. I didn't know what signal was used for rounding a bend but reasoned that it might be the same as another signal used in a similar circumstance. Turns out I was right but since I didn't know it, I won't reveal the answer. You've got me on the extra credit question but I'll raise you two and ask what's used to signal imminent danger ? What's the proper reply if you agree with someone's signaled intent ?

To reply to SD's question on a sailboat : because I like to signal my intent to give-way with a turn, it means I end up running a course that takes me behind the sailboat, even when it's a turn to port.

To answer jrc : I recall but one time when a signal from the above list was used. A boater was letting me know he was going to overtake and pass me after we had exited a NWZ.

I do have a query that's less a question re: the rules of the road and more of a "what's your rule of thumb" but I'll wait until tomorrow to ask that and post the answer to "how to tell if it's going to be a collision" (QQ #3, #4 arrgh If I knew there was going to be a test I'd have studied ).

[ApS]

I once was motor-touring about 15MPH when I heard three blasts from a mid-sized inboard coming up fast behind me. Since I was about 200 feet from shore, and dismissed the three blasts (meaning "backing"), I eased towards a dock and slowed. Looking astern again, I saw that the "Grey Ghost" had nearly run up my back!

The three blasts were to alert the dockmaster that the mail was being delivered -- right to the very dock that I thought was going to save me from being run over!

Originally Posted by ITD

Pass to the rear, although I'm sure this doesn't apply to you, most of the motor boaters out there think that sailboats are stationary and end up way too close when they try to pass to the front. Also because of wind variations sailboats speed up and slow down, especially on gusty days. Lastly if a sailboat is sailing toward the shore, give it a wide berth. The sailboat is probably tacking to head upwind and will soon be coming about, changing direction. Wakes generally aren't a problem because there is a large sail above the water and some sort of keel below the water that tend to stabilize things.

ITD has it exactly right (here, anyway).

But when multihulls are added, things change. Cats and trimarans can go two- to three- times faster than other sailboats, and introduce other issues.

"Pitchpoling" is one. It's not seen in other sailboats.

Pitchpoling is most often the result of driving one or more hulls under a wave. The boat will come to a sudden stop -- and you don't want to be following even 150+ feet astern, or at any speed where you can't avoid the striking the "operator" and crew in the water. (Sailboats don't have "drivers"). High speed power catamarans (tunnel hulls) are increasingly encountering the same effect, often fatal, which they call "stuffing". I posted a video somewhere here of a power cat ripping along.

For multihulls, wakes are another matter:

Too often, wake-cycles can nearly approximate the spacing (width/beam) of the hulls and violently toss the occupants back and forth between the hulls. Gear and rigging are thrown around too. When the wake-cycles are exactly the same as the hulls' spacing, the occupants are forcefully thrown in an up-and-down motion -- not quite as disrupting.

As ITD states, sails and keel keep sailboats balanced and stable, but only when there is sufficient wind.

Unlike monohulls, multihulls are very lightweight. One Olympic-class catamaran, at 20-feet, weighs less than 372 pounds fully rigged. A small photo of that Olympic-class catamaran with yellow sails is attached.

It's small, but you can still see the skipper with his arms extended. I'm thinking the boat is travelling from left to right, in a cartwheel. The big splash to the left is probably one crewmember. That light weight allows some spectacular speeds.

The photo to the right is a large multihull that has suddenly come to a stop -- mid-pitchpole. Although it may not have actually gone in - and over.

The stern is to the extreme left of the photo.

[xstrapolator]

I prefer to be passed in the rear, but that isn't always practical. If it is a very light wind day, a wake can stop a sail boat in its tracks. What I really appreciate is when folks in a powerboat slow down around me, especially if I'm raising or lowering the sails. Standing up on the cabin roof and being rolled by a fast boat is an interesting experience.
I thought the comment about sail boats being near the shore was a good one.
Some of the sail boats have fairly deep keels and I for one like to avoid finding new rocks for the Bizer's maps! Particularly around Fish Island.

[Mee-n-Mac]

... why I should have paid attention in geometry class

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

...which leads my to ask if everyone knows how to tell when you're on a collision course. Perhaps there are some boating newbies that haven't learned that yet ??

Originally Posted by Misty Blue

A collision course is defined (at least in my books) as a vessel on a steady ralative bearing with a decreasing range.

And you and Skip get the prize. Should anyone else not know, if the angle from your boat (relative bearing) to another holds steady (zero rate) and the distance is getting smaller then you're on a collision course. Same thing used to be taught to car drivers so they could tell if they were going to hit a car coming on/off the ramp. The reason why this is true is best explained by a picture of a triangle within a triangle. No doubt such a picture is available on the WWW someplace.

Along the lines of what SD asked back up in this thread: I hope we've all been ingrained that when 2 boats are more or less running in opposite directions that each should pass to the other's port side*. Now I ask if the other boat is just slightly to your starboard side, and you recognize this way in advance, do you turn to starboard to allow a port-to-port pass? At what lateral separation do you decide the proper pass is starboard-to-starboard ?


*I could only hope that someday PPP (Port Pass Prefered) would become as widely known as Red-Right-Return. Everyone has heard of RRR even if they don't know what it means.

[Misty Blue]

Me-N-Mac:

Five short (one secdond) blasts is for "Danger-Doubt". That is "I don't understand what is going on here" or "What the heck are you doing?" I usually use it to show my displeasure at a 150' rule violation!

As for the extra credit... One long followed by two short blasts.

Pine Island Guy reminded me that that was my families phone ring when he and I shared the same eight party line! (Hello Sarah, this is Andy!)

So here is a hint. You are in the fog!

New question: When you anchor out, how much line (scope) do you let out?

BTW Don't forget to tie off the bitter end of the anchor line. I'm sure Grant has found a bunch of anchors with lines attached to them!

Misty Blue.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Misty Blue

Me-N-Mac:

Five short (one secdond) blasts is for "Danger-Doubt". That is "I don't understand what is going on here" or "What the heck are you doing?" I usually use it to show my displeasure at a 150' rule violation!

As for the extra credit... One long followed by two short blasts.

Pine Island Guy reminded me that that was my families phone ring when he and I shared the same eight party line! (Hello Sarah, this is Andy!)

So here is a hint. You are in the fog!

New question: When you anchor out, how much line (scope) do you let out?

BTW Don't forget to tie off the bitter end of the anchor line. I'm sure Grant has found a bunch of anchors with lines attached to them!

Misty Blue.

Since nobody else chimed in, the rounding the bend is 1 long blast, just like you'd use in fog (Here I am !). The long and 2 shorts must be familiar to you towing guys when visibility is restricted but I've never had occasion to use that one. Here on the lake though I wonder if Capt B shouldn't use it (a vessel not under command) FWIW the inland rules and international rules differ in the proper affirmative answers to the overtaking and I'll accept only the inland rule answer to my previous query.

As for scope, here on the lake I get away with 3:1 typically, 5:1 at most, but don't expect it to hold in any substantial wind. If it gets to a-blowin I'm pulling up anchor and a-headed to home port. I wonder how many anchors Grant has found that got snagged and had a bitter end "added" to the rode ? Add a knife next to duct tape of tools req'd onboard. Which might just be a good next post ...

[Misty Blue]

Me-N-Mac

You can place a tin anchor on your Christmas tree! That fog signal was a toughie!

Try this...

Open up your nautical dictionary.

What is "deadrise"?

[jrc]

or the angle of the bottom of the boat. A zero degree deadrise means a flat bottom boat, which you don't see very often. Higher numbers mean a sharper vee. In general, a flatter bottom makes boat plane easier, go faster and get better fuel use. A deeper vee makes the boat ride better, especially in choppy water, and provides more volume in the cabin.

This boat has zero deadrise:

http://www.butlerwebs.com/jokes/images/boat-table.jpg

[Misty Blue]

Next question...

In that picture, how many violations do you see?

Misty Blue

[jrc]

Can't be sure because there are some shadows around his feet, but it doesn't look like he has a type 1,2 or 3 PFD for himself or a type 4 throwable. He probably doesn't have a whistle or horn, or a fire extinguisher. He doesn't have registration numbers or sticker. The fashion police should arrest him for that hat.

Other than that, he's good to go.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Misty Blue

Next question...

In that picture, how many violations do you see?

Misty Blue

No registration #s, no registration sticker, no PFD, no fire extinguisher, no signalling device (though he could have a whistle in his pocket) and no anchor/rode though I'm not sure if this is req'd on Class A boats.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by jrc

Can't be sure because there are some shadows around his feet, but it doesn't look like he has a type 1,2 or 3 PFD for himself or a type 4 throwable. He probably doesn't have a whistle or horn, or a fire extinguisher. He doesn't have registration numbers or sticker. The fashion police should arrest him for that hat.

Other than that, he's good to go.

Hmmm, I thought class A vessels didn't have to have a throwable ? How long is that table ??

[jrc]

on class A boats. I had to look it up.

You only need an anchor and oars if it's a rental boat.

[Knomad]

Attached is a link to site that gives, what I think, is a clearer interpretation of the navigation rules: Makes for a good reference:
http://personal.rdu.bellsouth.net/m/.../Rules-Man.PDF

If you really want to test your knowledge of the rules of the road, try:
http://www.boated.com/test/
or
http://www.uscg.mil/STCW/

[Misty Blue]

How do you know that you are approaching a sailboat (under sail) at night?

Extra credit: How do you know that you are approaching Skip's untersee boot at night? Keep your loading hatch dogged Skip!

Misty Blue.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Misty Blue

How do you know that you are approaching a sailboat (under sail) at night?

I won't tell but it is the one question I missed on the SB test. Hint: I thought the answer was "other" (ie - defective equipment) but it was "sailboat under sail at night".

Originally Posted by Misty Blue

Extra credit: How do you know that you are approaching Skip's untersee boot at night? Keep your loading hatch dogged Skip!
Misty Blue.

I don't know but if Skip has an untersee boot I want a ride !

[Misty Blue]

OK all of you navigators out there. Let's start dissecting this planet.

Question one: Where will the sun be at noon today? (This answer will brighten your day!)

Question two: How long is one minute of latitude?

Misty Blue

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Misty Blue

OK all of you navigators out there. Let's start dissecting this planet.

Question one: Where will the sun be at noon today? (This answer will brighten your day!)

Question two: How long is one minute of latitude?

Misty Blue

question 1: Are you refering to the tropic of cancer?Or is it the tropic of capricorn?I forgot which hemishere they are located.
question 2:That would be 60 seconds

[fatlazyless]

Somewhere, I remember that a restaurant on Main St in Rangeley Maine sits on the 45th latitude and the the 44th latitude is under the Manchester Airport, or something like that.

Therefore, the latitude of Nipple Rock, the lake's geographic center is precisely at 44.444...degrees north!

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Misty Blue

OK all of you navigators out there. Let's start dissecting this planet.

Question one: Where will the sun be at noon today? (This answer will brighten your day!)

Question two: How long is one minute of latitude?

Misty Blue

1. due south

2. one nautical mile

[gtxrider]

Originally Posted by Misty Blue

OK all of you navigators out there. Let's start dissecting this planet.

Question one: Where will the sun be at noon today? (This answer will brighten your day!) :

Question two: How long is one minute of latitude?

Misty Blue

Question one: Where will the sun be at noon today? (This answer will brighten your day!) : I hope in the SKY:rolleye

Question two: How long is one minute of latitude? 60 Seconds

[Silver Duck]

OK, Les, I'll bite! Where the heck is "Nipple Rock", and why is it the Lake's geographic center?

Silver Duck

[jrc]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Somewhere, I remember that a restaurant on Main St in Rangeley Maine sits on the 45th latitude and the the 44th latitude is under the Manchester Airport, or something like that.

Therefore, the latitude of Nipple Rock, the lake's geographic center is precisely at 44.444...degrees north!

I think someone needs a new map. According to Microsoft, Rangley is pretty damn close to the 45th latitude, but not Main St. Probably a little poetic license by the restaurateur.

The Manchester airport is at least four miles south of the 43th parallel.

If nipple rock is FL46, it's at 43 36.828 north and 71 22.645 , according to Bizer. No part of the lake at 44.444 north, the northern most tip is at around 43 44.1

[fatlazyless]

Isn't the winter solstice for all us northern hemispherians when, on December 21 at noon, the sun is directly overhead at the tropic of cancer, down in the southern hemisphere, like in Paraguay or Tahiti or somewhere down there.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Isn't the winter solstice for all us northern hemispherians when, on December 21 at noon, the sun is directly overhead at the tropic of cancer, down in the southern hemisphere, like in Paraguay or Tahiti or somewhere down there.

Less,

Once again I'm stunned by your accuracy and attention to detail, I really think you are playing with us so I can't resist responding. The Tropic of Cancer is in the Northern Hemisphere, the Tropic of Capricorn is in the Southern Hemisphere, you apparently have them bass-ackwards.

http://geography.about.com/library/misc/blequator.htm

[Lakegeezer]

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

OK, Les, I'll bite! Where the heck is "Nipple Rock", and why is it the Lake's geographic center?

Silver Duck

Here's a shot we took in February 2003.

[Silver Duck]

Thanks, LG & JRC.

Silver Duck