updated lake charts

[Rich]

I know the rocks don't move much, but I just noticed that Duncan Press is now selling their 2014 edition of the Lake Winni navigation chart. I don't know if it's a 'sale' or not but the price looks good.

I always like a couple of charts to compare.

Just sayin!

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by Rich

I know the rocks don't move much, but I just noticed that Duncan Press is now selling their 2014 edition of the Lake Winni navigation chart. I don't know if it's a 'sale' or not but the price looks good.

I always like a couple of charts to compare.

Just sayin!

The rocks may not move, but the markers that tell you where they are often to move. Not sure how much updating Duncan does. Nice to see they have a new map out this year. Good luck with both.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by upthesaukee

The rocks may not move, but the markers that tell you where they are often to move. Not sure how much updating Duncan does. Nice to see they have a new map out this year. Good luck with both.

Looks like they recently had a survey crew on the lake in September of 2013.

Their new chart will be a welcomed edition! Always liked their charts!

Dan

[rgilfert]

I just ordered a couple (with $2/map discount) from their web site...thanks for the "heads up"!

[Rich]

Yes, I thought for the price, it's good to have another chart. I had one of their older charts, in addition to the Bizer, but the old one has well worn out.

At the discount, the shipping, although reasonable, is almost as much as the chart.

[Rich]

I just received my new chart today. Since I started this thread, I thought I would give a mini review of my thoughts on it. This is labeled "Duncan Press Incorporated Fourth Edition Navigation Chart and Fishing Map of LAKE WINNIPESAUKEE, NH"

The scale is 1.6 inches to one mile. In checking with my own ruler, the scale on the chart looks closer to be about 1 mile is 1 7/16 inches (just shy of 1.5 inches per mile), or about 1 inch per kilometer. So maybe their printer's scale was off a little? My first reaction is that it's too bad it wasn't 1 inch to 1 mile, but that may be too small to view and navigate easily, and I can't remember the last time I needed to figure out the distance between two points on the lake. But if it's important to some, there is a scale on the chart to make it easy for you.

First, of course I checked my 'home port' to see if there was anything notable or new.

It looks fine!

But, I did notice a few buoys showing their location as being ON LAND (see the entry to Smith Cove, between where it says "Varney Point" and "Gilford Town Dock")! I know the buoys are not really on land there!

Upon review, I know that area is very narrow, and there would be no reason to miss these buoys, and no matter what, you always go by the buoys, not by what a chart is telling you. My guess is that this was probably due to the size of the buoys used on the chart and due to the scale being used, there wasn't enough room for the buoys to be in the water. Also, I think there is a red lateral buoy missing, but the orange 'no wake' buoy is in its place (on second look at this, they do have lighted buoy #55 located there, and their fine print states that the color of the lighted buoy shows a companion cardinal spar buoy. But this lighted buoy is also on land per this chart).

So I decided to check the 'fine print', for boaters this may be important, their first disclaimer on the chart:

This chart is not intended for navigation; rather it is for orientation and reference

Hmm.... but it's title has "Navigation Chart" clearly stated.

Ok, I can understand that and accept the limitations. Plus, I would never rely on only ONE chart, I do use more than one, and I always follow the markers, not the chart.

Here's another interesting point made on the chart in Red print:

Use Extreme Caution! This is a DANGEROUS lake.

Yes, I agree!

My Summary, I'm glad I got this updated chart. It was printed on a foldable, water-resistant looking paper. There is nothing on the back of the chart, so I may consider getting a second one and mounting it on wall in my office.

There are other nice things about the chart, some fishing notes (where different species can be found). I'm not big into fishing so I don't know if this is valid info, but it maybe a start for some one that wants a clue as where to start.

I DO definitely like the yellow areas that clearly demark the 'no wake zones'. To me this is easy to see and won't be missed when cruising around the lake. Previously you had to look closely at a chart so as not to miss the no-wake zones. And if you missed a buoy, it could mean a ticket by the MP!

I DO like the rocks and shoals areas highlighted in an 'orange' looking pattern. Let me check.... yes The Witches are marked with this pattern!

The 'no rafting' areas are also marked on the chart, using a symbol that first to me looked like a pair of red SCUBA tanks, but on second look, it's an image of two boats together with a red circle with a slash through it.

There are seven different insets expanding on areas of the lake that are cluttered with buoys and would be hard to see on the regular scale of the chart.

There also is a nice listing of the numbered buoys, including their lat/long as well as a map index to help you to locate it. This can be helpful for a number of reasons, especially if you don't know all of them, if you get lost, or hear someone on the radio talking about a particular lighted buoy.

I also DO like the fact that the NH Marine Patrol's dispatch telephone number is clearly printed and highlighted on the chart.

One thing I'm not personally fond of? The 'buoy numbers', not the lighted buoys, but all the others! On this chart, many (but not all) of the other buoys on the chart are numbered. According to their website, these numbers coincide with waypoint numbers in someone's personal way points for each buoy. Well that is fine, but it's useless to the rest of us as we don't have these waypoints loaded into the GPS on board our boats. Now if they offered a listing of these waypoints, either online, or with something that we could load into our various different brands and models of GPS, then it would be useful information. Or, if each of the MP boat's GPS had these waypoints loaded into them, then it maybe helpful to know the buoy number, but I think these numbers simply add some clutter to the chart, and could cause some confusion during a radio call for help. Do you know where " Buoy #736" is? Could you find it on your chart in a hurry? Even with this chart in my hand, I don't think I could easily find this buoy! But on the other hand, I suppose it does tell you which buoys were checked by GPS and which ones may not have been. But this may be a bad assumption.

Oh, and my favorite feature of the chart? It's good to see that they didn't try to change or hide the name of my favorite rock on the lake! Yes, light number 46 is still shown as "Nipple Rock"! I've been trying to tell everyone that comes for a ride by Nipple Rock about the "Legend of Nipple Rock". Hopefully one day, everyone will know about it. But few will believe me if I can't point out on a official chart that it's name is truely "Nipple Rock".

I did a quick compare to the list of newest lake updates that was posted in another thread to see if this chart has these corrections already applied, and it appears that they have been made, but I haven't checked each and every one in detail, so please check these yourself.


Here's a link to the chart right off the home page of the Duncan Press website:
http://www.duncanpressinc.com/map_im...inni2014-7.jpg

Sorry that the following looks so big here (on my monitor the scale is almost 1 mile per 2 inches), this is referenced directly from their website, so if it is no longer displayed, they changed their website:

[NoBozo]

YES: The ROCKS don't move from year to year. What ALSO doesn't move from year to year is the GPS Coordinates of the Rocks. SO: If you have a GPS with the Coordinates Plugged IN from previous years....you are STILL GOOD to go. Floating markers have always been secondary....They can move around. NB

[TiltonBB]

So..................If the Duncan Press Chart says "Not for Navigation" you may not want to use it as a road map either!

Route 11B which is Weirs Road and turns into Endicott Street East is labeled on the chart as "Winnipesaukee Shore Road".

Route 11 which is Lake Shore Road is labeled on the chart as "Winnipesaukee Road".

[jrc]

Look at the close up of Locke's, Varney and Rock Island. The suggested route around red buoy #200 is over land.

The chart is nice for a general overview and I still feel nostalgia the original green chart, but really the Bizer chart is the most accurate.

[Just Sold]

Not a fan of Duncan except for the color!

I have the Bizer chart on board and for my Garmin GPS/Fishfinder I have the Garmin's downloadable chart of Winnipesauke that was only $10 but it has been discontinued. So now to get a Winnipesaukee chart from Garmin you must buy either U.S. LakeVü™ HD $149.99 or Garmin LakeVü™ HD Ultra $199.99.

Garmin sent me this response when I inquired about the new charts.
Yes, we did some detailed surveying on Lake Winnipesaukee last year. This information has been integrated into two of our inland lake products – LakeVu HD and LakeVu HD Ultra. There will be 1’ contours for the lake in both maps. The HD Ultra map includes a few features that are not included in the standard HD map like sonar imagery, surface and side scan photos, auto guidance, etc. They are only compatible with certain device models.

They told me my 521S was compatable but I should buy their SD Card version of the maps as it is a very long and large download otherwise.

At this point I would still get the Bizer GPS over the Garmin.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by jrc

Look at the close up of Locke's, Varney and Rock Island. The suggested route around red buoy #200 is over land.

What, you don't have the four wheel drive option on your boat?

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by jrc

Look at the close up of Locke's, Varney and Rock Island. The suggested route around red buoy #200 is over land.

I'm havin a problem with this statement..in that there are ONLY 84 "Numbered Buoys". on the lake on the Bizer chart. ??? Please explain.. NB

PS: For those looking for these locations: Those locations are over by Glendale.

PPS: There is no "Close Up" of this area on the Bizer chart.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

I'm havin a problem with this statement..in that there are ONLY 84 "Numbered Buoys". on the lake on the Bizer chart. ??? Please explain.. NB

Did you read my review:

One thing I'm not personally fond of? The 'buoy numbers', not the lighted buoys, but all the others! On this chart, many (but not all) of the other buoys on the chart are numbered. According to their website, these numbers coincide with waypoint numbers in someone's personal way points for each buoy. Well that is fine, but it's useless to the rest of us as we don't have these waypoints loaded into the GPS on board our boats. Now if they offered a listing of these waypoints, either online, or with something that we could load into our various different brands and models of GPS, then it would be useful information. Or, if each of the MP boat's GPS had these waypoints loaded into them, then it maybe helpful to know the buoy number, but I think these numebers simply add some clutter to the chart, and could cause some confusion during a radio call for help. Do you know where " Buoy #736" is? Could you find it on your chart in a hurry? Even with this chart in my hand, I don't think I could easily find this buoy! But on the other hand, I suppose it does tell you which buoys were checked by GPS and which ones may not have been. But this may be a bad assumption.

Summary: I'm not fond of the extra 'numbers' on this chart.
If you read their website, it mentions that the extra numbered buoys are from the GPS waypoints of someone in the MP that checked the locations of the buoys and supplied the list to Duncan Press.

[ishoot308]

For the life of me, I just don't understand why Duncan simply didn't revise and update their "old green map" over the years and kept the exact same format. Why mess with perfection! That is the map by which all maps have been judged over the years and the one boaters miss the most!

Sometimes "New and Improved" is not!

Dan

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

For the life of me, I just don't understand why Duncan simply didn't revise and update their "old green map" over the years and kept the exact same format. Why mess with perfection! That is the map by which all maps have been judged over the years and the one boaters miss the most!

Sometimes "New and Improved" is not!

Dan

I still use my old laminated folding Duncan. The islands and rocks have not moved much over the years, so it still works. I find it the easiest paper chart to read quickly.

[Gufinof]

Rich, Did you recently receive your new chart by mail? I ordered one over a month ago and have not received anything. I ordered the 8.5" x 14", laminated 5 mil, printed both sides, and SIXTEEN PAGES held together by a plastic comb! It does not appear to be offered any longer on their web site. Thanks, Dave

[pjard]

Do any local stores have the new edition on the shelf yet? Is online the only choice?

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Rich

Did you read my review:

I see where the discrepancy lies. I'm looking at my 5th edition (Undated) BIZER chart..NOT the NEW Duncan chart. My OLD Duncan chart is dated 1997-1998. I have 34 way-points in my old Magellan 6000 GPS Plotter..some are "My Own"..not associated with buoys or marks, but most are the numbered lighted buoys.

Back in the Old days, in Salt water, before Loran or GPS, I ALWAYS steered toward buoys that Make Noise (Bells, whistles or horns)....If the buoy had a light, all the better. A noise maker can usually be found in the FOG, night or day if you're close.. Back in those days it was called Dead Reckoning. NB

Before GPS and Loran, our electronic navigation was done with an RDF. (Radio Direction Finder) .....we've come a long way baby.

[Rich]

Things have changed! I used work for the company that made the LORAN Transmitters (I wrote software and designed some hardware for them), now LORAN is gone.

I remember seeing my first GPS receiver, it literally was the size of a microwave oven an cost around $50,000.00.

Now they are built into our cell phones and other products that cost $100 or less that almost everyone can own. Who could have predicted this?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by pjard

Do any local stores have the new edition on the shelf yet? Is online the only choice?

My guess is all the local shops that carry these will have them soon. But I haven't been to any local shops yet, there's still too much ice an snow on the lake for me to spend much time there.

Maybe someone will post when the sight a new one at a local shop.

[Rich]

After thinking about this a bit more, I do feel bad for Duncan Press.

They are a small local company and we're their direct intended customer base. In these days of 'big business' I hate to see any small business suffering.

Perhaps they are a bit overwelmed with trying to get their new charts out the door? Or perhaps they simply are not very computer savy? I'm not sure.

But some lessons they can learn from this thread:

• Always respond to your customers, even if to say "I don't know", or "I need a bit more time to look into this for you". And rememeber to follow through!
  
• Rememeber that post-sale support is just as important as pre-sale support.
  
• Perhaps get a small group of your intended customers to review samples of your product before committing to production.
  
• (I almost hate to even mention this particular point) When you post sample images of your product on your website, you may want to be sure to post a very small 'thumbnail sized' sample image, do not post an image file that is large enough for users to download directly onto their IPads and Android tablets that could actually be used, instead of purchasing your product . If you're not sure how to do this, get some knowledgable help (even if you need to pay for it).

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rich

• (I almost hate to even mention this particular point) When you post sample images of your product on your website, you may want to be sure to post a very small 'thumbnail sized' sample image, do not post an image file that is large enough for users to download directly onto their IPads and Android tablets that could actually be used, instead of purchasing your product . If you're not sure how to do this, get some knowledgable help (even if you need to pay for it).

Not that I didn't half expect this, but someone sent me a PM (thanks by the way, you know who you are) suggesting that based on my post, perhaps I should remove my link to the large chart in my previous post.

My answer was that I did not 'attach' the chart to my post, but I only hot-linked directly to the chart on the DP website. When I did this I was very surprised to see that such a large size of the chart was on their website.

If DP changes their website, my previous post would either break with the chart no longer being displayed (if they renamed the file) or the new image would start displaying smaller (if they kept the same filename/URL).

So what do others think, should I edit out my previous post? I'm happy to do this, but it won't change the facts. Of course the webmaster can do as he pleases (this goes without saying).

[Island-Ho]

If you look at insert 6 and the marked route between Camp Island and Breezy & Kineho Islands, approaching from the west, do NOT proceed between markers 594(black tip) and 595(red tip) as indicated by the dashed line. All previous charts before this issue correctly indicate you should proceed west of marker # 595 before turning northeast between the islands. You may make it between them at high water, but I would not recommend it. Also as you pass through the channel you are very close to shore and docks and no faster than headway speed is required.
I suspect other errors will surface. I will stick to my Bizer 'map' .

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Island-Ho

If you look at insert 6 and the marked route between Camp Island and Breezy & Kineho Islands, approaching from the west, do NOT proceed between markers 594(black tip) and 595(red tip) as indicated by the dashed line. All previous charts before this issue correctly indicate you should proceed west of marker # 595 before turning northeast between the islands. You may make it between them at high water, but I would not recommend it. Also as you pass through the channel you are very close to shore and docks and no faster than headway speed is required.
I suspect other errors will surface. I will stick to my Bizer 'map' .

This seems like an important and serious error. Thanks for mentioning it!