Ragged Island marker

challmec · 06-24-2011, 07:44 AM

Good Morning
I have a question concerning the marker on the South side of Ragged Island. It is a red/white marker which indicated an obstruction in the area. Now when approaching it from the South shouldn't it be passed on the left ? It would seem so but I idled past it one day recently and observed a large boulder under the surface which when the Lake is lower may cause interference.
That being said the right side of the marker is clear and is the correct way into the dock area.
So shouldn't that marker be painted white /black?? What I am getting at is with the current configuration an approaching boat coming from the South should pass to the left (West) of the marker. This may cause contact with that boulder !!
Am I off here ? Can someone clarify for me?
Thanks in advance

Senter Cove Guy · 06-24-2011, 08:33 AM

You don't want boat traffic between the marker and the island, so a B&W is not appropriate. Perhaps the R&W was moved over the winter and should be relocated so the rock is on the east side.

jrc · 06-24-2011, 10:22 PM

Looking at my Bizer chart, the rock should be just north and west of the R/W marker. On a East/West course you should travel south of marker.

But as you note traveling North/South, if you follow the rules, you would travel west and then you hit the rock or the island.

This is another one of those limitations of the current marker system. That's why you always need the chart. This position needs a south/east marker, we don't have one. So they place the most helpful marker we have. Most people will know not to travel between the marker and shore.

Rattlesnake Guy · 06-25-2011, 08:45 AM

Just looked at the Duncan Green map and it shows staying away from the island to the south side.

Ben = Black East North

so Red = South West

But we all know it's not an exact process. I always thought the markers that required counter intuitive behavior should have an extra designation so you knew to pay extra attention. Like when you are supposed to go on the land side of a marker. Or go outside of a pair and not between etc.

There is a black marker south of Treasure that confuses the heck out of me. I just stay away from it.

Bizer · 06-27-2011, 06:51 AM

According to my notes, there is a rock about 5m (16 ft) north-northwest of the buoy. The rock is about two feet below the surface (at fall lake level) which would put it about three feet below the surface today.

One problem with this rock/buoy is that it lies in one of the "Zones of Ambiguity" (as Bizer calls them). In this case, boaters should stay southeast of this buoy. The ambiguity is: Should the buoy be red (so that one passes to the south) or black (so that one passes to the east). The other ambiguity zone arises when one is to pass northwest of a buoy. So, if the buoy is southeast of the hazard (as in this case) or northwest of the hazard, look at the chart.

There are other buoys that lie in a Zone of Ambiguity, like the buoy southeast of Treasure Island (as RG pointed out). In most cases, it is intuitively obvious on which side to pass (e.g. Ayers Point, FL#25). A good rule-of-thumb: If there is a lone buoy, the hazard usually lies between the buoy and the nearest shore.

granny · 06-27-2011, 08:45 AM

When going south and west around Ragged Island, go out in the deep water. OR, if you are going to land or find some other reason to be in the shoal area , go at NO WAKE speed (6 miles an hour) and keep one eye on the water. There could be rocks, as in most shoals.
Go at NO WAKE speed whenever you are in a shoal area.
When you're not sure what a buoy means, try the Duncan Press chart. Chances are very good that the routes around the buoys WILL be accurate.

SIKSUKR · 06-27-2011, 12:56 PM

That was one area I messed up with the markers. I stopped and used my chart and realized I went the wrong side. I was on my PWC so I didn't hit anything with that low draft. I watched a longtime Governors Isl resident friend go full speed on the Ragged side of the markers and never hit a thing. Lucky boy!

jrc · 06-27-2011, 02:37 PM

There was talk a few years back about NH changing away from the current spar system to the more widespread US system.

That system has a simple black and white vertical striped marker that could be used a lot of places:

Inland Waters Obstruction Marker
These are white with black vertical stripes and indicate an obstruction to navigation. You should not pass between these buoys and the nearest shore

There are places where the safe course is between the shore and the marker so this is not a perfect replacement.

challmec · 06-27-2011, 09:36 PM

Thanks to everyone who has posted on this subject.. I guess the bottom line is to read the charts and not rely on the markers most of the time...
Very interesting stuff to think about
Thanks again and safe boating to all!!

granny · 06-28-2011, 08:24 AM

This is one of the many cases where the Duncan Press chart is preferable to the Bizer map. Compare the two... (The one at the left is Duncan Press.)

SIKSUKR · 06-28-2011, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by granny

This is one of the many cases where the Duncan Press chart is preferable to the Bizer map. Compare the two... (The one at the left is Duncan Press.)

Huh?They both look the same to me.

I take that back.Bizer has much more detail on rock locations.Thanks for pointing that out.

Sue Doe-Nym · 06-28-2011, 01:05 PM

Actually, I think the Bizer chart is clearer. It shows the rock to be avoided whereas as the Duncan chart does not. Also, Granny, I think it has been a few years since the SLA/Science Center has owned Ragged Island. Shouldn't the LRCT be shown as the current owner?

Rattlesnake Guy · 06-28-2011, 08:12 PM

Bizer,
Does the direction of the marker have any meaning on your chart? (Pointing left or up etc.) It seems like it could, but it has not clicked for me.

Baja Guy · 06-29-2011, 07:05 AM

Someone already said it but this bears repeating. Markers are great and can be used. But when going somewhere you are not familiar, you really must use your chart and proceed with caution.
I use markers where I remember the lake and charts in the shallows & less familiar spots. It's one more fun thing to me. Just yesterday we came through between Timber, Mark, Mink & Round Island, I could not remember the last time I went through, so the stick got pulled back & the chart got pulled out...very idyllic and quiet there on a sunny Tuesday in June.
And as said there are places where the system isn't perfect. Generally it's where the system would transition from a red to a black.
And as was said, markers can be dragged by the ice, I would think rocks can too.

challmec · 06-29-2011, 08:09 PM

Thanks to all who have responded to my original post. I have learned some valuable info through all of the responses and I now pull out my chart when in doubt, This forum is a valuable tool and thanks to all once again

Safe boating out there

Bizer · 07-03-2011, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

Bizer,
Does the direction of the marker have any meaning on your chart? (Pointing left or up etc.) It seems like it could, but it has not clicked for me.

Usually, but now always, the buoy diamond points away from the boating route. Do not rely on this because many buoys are rotated due to congestion or to reveal a nearby rock. Rather, use the color of the water on the chart for reference. White = more-than-six-feet-deep-so-it's-safe-to-boat-here. Blue = something-in-this-vicinity-is-less-than-six-feet-deep-so-be-cautious. Bizer offers a cash reward for anyone finding a place less than six feet deep that is not marked in blue. Because of Bizer's obsession to accuracy, we were happy to pay out $560 because it made our chart better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by granny

... When you're not sure what a buoy means, try the Duncan Press chart. Chances are very good that the routes around the buoys WILL be accurate.

Using a word in all-caps for emphasis, Granny aims to create the impression that something specific and meaningful has been said, when, in fact, her claim is vague and ambiguous. What are "very good" chances? 80%?

Quote:

Originally Posted by granny

This is one of the many cases where the Duncan Press chart is preferable to the Bizer map. Compare the two... (The one at the left is Duncan Press.)

Challenge accepted. To make it easier for anyone to compare, I have taken Bizer's chart and

rotated the chart 45 degrees so that it is at the same orientation as the pictured Duncan map.
made the scale the same on both maps.
added a dashed orange line (on the Bizer chart) that shows exactly where Duncan Press depicts the safe boating route.
added an orange dot (with black center) at the location where Duncan incorrectly depicts the black-and-white buoy at light #41.

Proceeding northward, Granny's safe boating route passes over a field of rocks about 80 yards south-southwest of light #41. Then, Granny's route pass directly over the true location of light #41 (and the rock next to it). In addition, Granny misplaced light #41 by about 205 feet.

challmec · 07-04-2011, 08:18 AM

Bizer hands down looks alot more accurate .
Thanks much

06-24-2011, 07:44 AM	#1
challmec Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 55 Thanks: 21 Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts	Ragged Island marker Good Morning I have a question concerning the marker on the South side of Ragged Island. It is a red/white marker which indicated an obstruction in the area. Now when approaching it from the South shouldn't it be passed on the left ? It would seem so but I idled past it one day recently and observed a large boulder under the surface which when the Lake is lower may cause interference. That being said the right side of the marker is clear and is the correct way into the dock area. So shouldn't that marker be painted white /black?? What I am getting at is with the current configuration an approaching boat coming from the South should pass to the left (West) of the marker. This may cause contact with that boulder !! Am I off here ? Can someone clarify for me? Thanks in advance

06-27-2011, 08:45 AM	#6
granny Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 4 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ragged Island solved… When going south and west around Ragged Island, go out in the deep water. OR, if you are going to land or find some other reason to be in the shoal area , go at NO WAKE speed (6 miles an hour) and keep one eye on the water. There could be rocks, as in most shoals. Go at NO WAKE speed whenever you are in a shoal area. When you're not sure what a buoy means, try the Duncan Press chart. Chances are very good that the routes around the buoys WILL be accurate.

06-27-2011, 12:56 PM	#7
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	That was one area I messed up with the markers. I stopped and used my chart and realized I went the wrong side. I was on my PWC so I didn't hit anything with that low draft. I watched a longtime Governors Isl resident friend go full speed on the Ragged side of the markers and never hit a thing. Lucky boy! __________________ SIKSUKR

06-28-2011, 08:24 AM	#10
granny Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 4 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Which chart? This is one of the many cases where the Duncan Press chart is preferable to the Bizer map. Compare the two... (The one at the left is Duncan Press.) Attached Images

06-29-2011, 07:05 AM	#14
Baja Guy Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Nashua, NH Posts: 45 Thanks: 3 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Someone already said it but this bears repeating. Markers are great and can be used. But when going somewhere you are not familiar, you really must use your chart and proceed with caution. I use markers where I remember the lake and charts in the shallows & less familiar spots. It's one more fun thing to me. Just yesterday we came through between Timber, Mark, Mink & Round Island, I could not remember the last time I went through, so the stick got pulled back & the chart got pulled out...very idyllic and quiet there on a sunny Tuesday in June. And as said there are places where the system isn't perfect. Generally it's where the system would transition from a red to a black. And as was said, markers can be dragged by the ice, I would think rocks can too. __________________ 1989 Baja Sunsport 196, Mercruiser 5.7, For Sale 1987 Formula 223 LS with 1997 350 Mag

06-24-2011, 08:33 AM	#2
Senter Cove Guy Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 593 Thanks: 283 Thanked 427 Times in 139 Posts	B&W Not Appropriate You don't want boat traffic between the marker and the island, so a B&W is not appropriate. Perhaps the R&W was moved over the winter and should be relocated so the rock is on the east side. __________________ Lake Winni - The only place I want to be during the summer.

The Following User Says Thank You to Senter Cove Guy For This Useful Post:
challmec (06-24-2011)

06-24-2011, 10:22 PM	#3
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	Looking at my Bizer chart, the rock should be just north and west of the R/W marker. On a East/West course you should travel south of marker. But as you note traveling North/South, if you follow the rules, you would travel west and then you hit the rock or the island. This is another one of those limitations of the current marker system. That's why you always need the chart. This position needs a south/east marker, we don't have one. So they place the most helpful marker we have. Most people will know not to travel between the marker and shore.

The Following User Says Thank You to jrc For This Useful Post:
challmec (06-25-2011)

06-25-2011, 08:45 AM	#4
Rattlesnake Guy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,254 Thanks: 423 Thanked 366 Times in 175 Posts	Just looked at the Duncan Green map and it shows staying away from the island to the south side. Ben = Black East North so Red = South West But we all know it's not an exact process. I always thought the markers that required counter intuitive behavior should have an extra designation so you knew to pay extra attention. Like when you are supposed to go on the land side of a marker. Or go outside of a pair and not between etc. There is a black marker south of Treasure that confuses the heck out of me. I just stay away from it.

The Following User Says Thank You to Rattlesnake Guy For This Useful Post:
challmec (06-25-2011)

06-27-2011, 06:51 AM	#5
Bizer Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 332 Thanks: 0 Thanked 242 Times in 81 Posts	According to my notes, there is a rock about 5m (16 ft) north-northwest of the buoy. The rock is about two feet below the surface (at fall lake level) which would put it about three feet below the surface today. One problem with this rock/buoy is that it lies in one of the "Zones of Ambiguity" (as Bizer calls them). In this case, boaters should stay southeast of this buoy. The ambiguity is: Should the buoy be red (so that one passes to the south) or black (so that one passes to the east). The other ambiguity zone arises when one is to pass northwest of a buoy. So, if the buoy is southeast of the hazard (as in this case) or northwest of the hazard, look at the chart. There are other buoys that lie in a Zone of Ambiguity, like the buoy southeast of Treasure Island (as RG pointed out). In most cases, it is intuitively obvious on which side to pass (e.g. Ayers Point, FL#25). A good rule-of-thumb: If there is a lone buoy, the hazard usually lies between the buoy and the nearest shore.

The Following User Says Thank You to Bizer For This Useful Post:
Sue Doe-Nym (06-27-2011)

06-27-2011, 02:37 PM	#8
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	There was talk a few years back about NH changing away from the current spar system to the more widespread US system. That system has a simple black and white vertical striped marker that could be used a lot of places: Inland Waters Obstruction Marker These are white with black vertical stripes and indicate an obstruction to navigation. You should not pass between these buoys and the nearest shore There are places where the safe course is between the shore and the marker so this is not a perfect replacement.

06-27-2011, 09:36 PM	#9
challmec Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 55 Thanks: 21 Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts	Thanks to everyone who has posted on this subject.. I guess the bottom line is to read the charts and not rely on the markers most of the time... Very interesting stuff to think about Thanks again and safe boating to all!!

06-28-2011, 01:05 PM	#12
Sue Doe-Nym Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,372 Thanks: 710 Thanked 758 Times in 393 Posts	Actually, I think the Bizer chart is clearer. It shows the rock to be avoided whereas as the Duncan chart does not. Also, Granny, I think it has been a few years since the SLA/Science Center has owned Ragged Island. Shouldn't the LRCT be shown as the current owner?

06-28-2011, 08:12 PM	#13
Rattlesnake Guy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,254 Thanks: 423 Thanked 366 Times in 175 Posts	Bizer, Does the direction of the marker have any meaning on your chart? (Pointing left or up etc.) It seems like it could, but it has not clicked for me.

06-29-2011, 08:09 PM	#15
challmec Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 55 Thanks: 21 Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts	Thanks to all who have responded to my original post. I have learned some valuable info through all of the responses and I now pull out my chart when in doubt, This forum is a valuable tool and thanks to all once again Safe boating out there

The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Bizer For This Useful Post:
challmec (07-04-2011), Lakegeezer (07-04-2011), SIKSUKR (07-07-2011)

07-04-2011, 08:18 AM	#17
challmec Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 55 Thanks: 21 Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts	Bizer hands down looks alot more accurate . Thanks much