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Old 07-20-2009, 03:54 AM   #1
Skipper of the Sea Que
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Question Inaccurate info from Duncan Press (green map) web site

They claim that they have the most accurate information regarding Lake Winnipesaukee however I’ve noted inaccurate or omitted information on the Duncan Press (Green Map) web site that ranges IMHO from a serious disservice to boaters to negligent, laughable or silly. Here are some examples from their most current Lake Winnipesaukee Green Map, their 2005 edition.

Speed Limits: According to Duncan Press (on the additions, deletions, observations, changes page) as of today, July 20, 2009 there are speed limits of 45 mph day and 25 mph night in only TWO areas of Lake Winnipesaukee. One by Rattlesnake Island and the other is by Bear Island. Oddly, they are the same as the trial speed limit locations from the summer of 2008. Absolutely no indication from Duncan Press that the 45/25mph speed limits apply to the entire lake and have been in force for all of 2009. Tell that to a Judge.

Launch your boat: Don’t be surprised if you can’t launch your boat at Ames Farm Inn. Duncan Press does not mention that the Ames Farm Inn launch facility is for Inn guests and not available to the public this season.

The latest Duncan Press map (2005 edition) shows the symbols for a public launch ramp and public dock in Sanders Bay around Silver Sands. On the corrections page they update their 2003-2004 map to show the launch ramp at Silver Sands closed to the public but Duncan Press neglected carrying the correction over to their current map, the 2005 edition. They have not added the information to the corrections of the 2005 map. But that’s not the whole truth yet. It’s the big ramp at Silver Sands MARINA that is now closed to the public. There has been a smaller public launch ramp across the lagoon at Silver Sands Motel (Resort) that has been available to the public for at least 50 years but no mention of it. What about the public dock? How can you close something that never existed? There NEVER was a public dock at Silver Sands Marina or Motel.

Still looking over the corrections and additions page some of the information is supplied by their, “Marine Patrol Secret Agent”. What does that imply? Shades of James Bond – it bothers me to think that some of the Duncan Press alleged accurate information has been “slipped” to them by a paid public servant. Does that mean the information is NOT available to others (like Bizer)? Complicating matters at some point it seems that MP and Duncan stopped providing lat/long positions of new navigation aids. No one handed coordinates to Duncan Press on a silver platter. Their advisors on the left coast probably never saw the new navigation aids in person. IMHO, Bizer would have visited the new markers and taken a few GPS readings for publication rather than do what Duncan Press did and just say, SORRY, no lat/long available. Does that demonstrate a dedication to accuracy?

Waypoints are not allowed. Say what? Duncan Press knows an authority that dictates what I can and can not plug into my GPS or chart plotter? I might not want to use Sally’s Gut markers as waypoints but the coordinates I enter into my GPS should be MY BUSINESS and not subject to any other authority.

Let’s switch over to the Safety Tips from the Marine Patrol web page of the Duncan Press site. You want to get a Boater Education certificate and course from the United States Coast Guard? According to Duncan Press you can do that at Marine Patrol Headquarters. Accurate info? Nope. You get Marine Patrol State of NH courses and certificate at Marine Patrol Headquarters not US Coast Guard Courses. Both are very good but the US Coast Guard and NH Marine Patrol are very different agencies.

According to Duncan Press you can not legally go over 6 mph within 150 feet of ANYTHING. Although this is excellent advice it is NOT TRUE. They word it so you might believe that it is a quote from the MP but it is NOT accurate information. For instance, we can start a water skier from shore under the right safety conditions. We can stay on plane as close to some things as we care to do. A good example is the rock that Flashing Light 46 sits on by Round Island. It is not subject to the 150’ rule. Don’t think I’m Capt. Bonehead when you see me just 25 feet away from FL46 on plane.

Many of these items have been brought to the attention of Duncan Press over the last few YEARS but they have ignored the information and neglected responding to e-mail and snail mail. See these postings from past years:

Post from 2007, Gilligan asks Duncan about the public dock

Post from me re: e-mail and snail mail to Duncan Press

This is getting way too long so I’ll stop and leave you with some recent screen captures (July 2009) from the Duncan Press Inc web site.

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Old 07-20-2009, 04:26 AM   #2
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Wink Giving Duncan a Boost?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipper of the Sea Que View Post
"...They claim that they have the most accurate information regarding Lake Winnipesaukee...as of today, July 20, 2009...Absolutely no indication from Duncan Press that the 45/25mph speed limits apply to the entire lake and have been in force for all of 2009. Tell that to a Judge..."
You may have just provided Duncan Press with a "banner year" for selling their 2009 charts of Winnipesaukee.

Buy the chart (Exhibit A, to show you're safety-minded), then print out the web page (Exhibit B, to show that you are on top of any changes): Then keep both chart and web page together.

If I'd been charged outside of the two limited areas shown, I'd definitely show "Exhibits A and B" to the Judge!

Case dismissed!

BTW: It's been a really long time since your last post—Welcome back!
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Last edited by ApS; 07-20-2009 at 07:54 AM. Reason: Added: print out web page
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Old 07-20-2009, 08:18 AM   #3
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Default Bad legal advice.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acres per Second View Post
...If I'd been charged outside of the two limited areas shown, I'd definitely show "Exhibits A and B" to the Judge!

Case dismissed! ...
First, thanks "Skipper" for the research you put into this post, and the appropriate warning you have given us all. Good work, as usual.

As for APS' assertion that you can use the map for a defense in court reference a speeding charge, let me warn you that would be very foolish.

First, the map is the product of a private company and makes no claim to being a legal document. But of further importance is the information printed on each map and made clearly available on their website, which strips you of any legal right to claim their information is a definitive legal source:


Disclaimer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following Warning and Disclaimer appears on all current editions of our navigation charts. Before you use our charts, please read this carefully!


The information in this chart is based on information believed to be reliable obtained from the New Hampshire Department of Safety, Division of Safety Services, Bureau of Marine Patrol, but there are no assurances that such information is accurate or complete. The Publisher has made reasonable effort to make this chart useful in light of such sources of information, but makes NO WARRANTIES, EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, about the accuracy, contents or reliability of this information or the chart. THE PUBLISHER SHALL HAVE NO LIABILITY IN TORT, CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR OTHERWISE FOR CONSEQUENTIAL OR INCIDENTAL DAMAGES FOR ANY ERRORS OR OMISSIONS. The purchaser's and other end-user's sole remedy for defects in this chart shall be the replacement of this chart by the Publisher, provided that the defect must be brought to the Publisher's attention in writing within one (1) year after the date of purchase of this chart.
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Old 07-20-2009, 09:35 AM   #4
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It's regretable that they assign such a low priority to accurracy. It's like selling leaky life-rafts. Yes they provide "patch-kits" but when you walk out of the store with it, you expect your safety gear to be immediatly functional.
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Old 07-20-2009, 09:47 AM   #5
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It's regretable that they assign such a low priority to accurracy.
Ya, like a few members on this forum.
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Old 07-20-2009, 02:06 PM   #6
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Default Duncan Press Map

I have used both maps over the years. As far as I am concerned, the Duncan is the only map which you can easily read while underway. To me it is a matter of visibility and ease of focus to the dots (markers) and dotted lines vs. the Bizer choice of marker identification.
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Old 07-20-2009, 02:40 PM   #7
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Default I agree!

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Originally Posted by Winni Boater 17 Years View Post
I have used both maps over the years. As far as I am concerned, the Duncan is the only map which you can easily read while underway. To me it is a matter of visibility and ease of focus to the dots (markers) and dotted lines vs. the Bizer choice of marker identification.
I couldn't agree more! I still mainly use the old duncan green map that is laminated and folds in half. In my opinion it is much easier to read for the exact reasons you descibe.

Glad I'm not alone on this...

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Old 07-21-2009, 06:33 AM   #8
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Default You Don't Need F. Lee Bailey...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip View Post
"...First, the map is the product of a private company and makes no claim to being a legal document. But of further importance is the information printed on each map and made clearly available on their website, which strips you of any legal right to claim their information is a definitive legal source..."
An exhibit needn't be "a-legal-document-from-a-definitive-legal-source".

A fuzzy black-and-white snapshot taken with a Kodak Instamatic—that I took—could become a courtroom exhibit.

Quote:
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"...As for APS' assertion that you can use the map for a defense in court reference a speeding charge, let me warn you that would be very foolish..."
1) It'd be even more foolish IMHO, to hire a $300-per-hour lawyer while waiting in line to fight a $100 ticket. (And it's the website error—not "the map"—that will provide your extenuating circumstance).

2) Traffic Court is not Criminal Court: In some locales, Traffic Courts have "Hearing Examiners" substituting for expensive judges.

Perhaps by being a good debater, I've never been presented with a ticket in New Hampshire—a state that appears unfriendly to out-of-state violators. I did get a NHMP warning, but presented my argument to Director Barrett, who responded with a written apology that I keep handy.

However, in my other experiences in Civil courts, Traffic Court Judges (and Hearing Examiners) not only seem eager to hear the arguments of the citizen, they appear to lend a sympathetic ear to those arguments.

But by all means, do challenge the ticket, and do present your mitigating arguments and exhibits. Even if a finding of guilt follows your reasonable attempt at vindication, the end result can be "non-punitive". (A no-fine penalty).

3) In one day, a Judge can see (and get to know) the same LEO in several cases in a row. That officer's reason for a traffic stop most often has the Judge tending to side with the LEO. IMHO, you stand a better chance of avoiding a fine by not arguing any deficiencies of radar and not arguing the skills of the LEO.

Since adulthood, the only case where I was successfully fined would require a courtroom appearance in Colorado: Who's going to travel 2000 miles to challenge an $85 speeding ticket?

(And I had zero exhibits to present against the radar that nailed me anyway).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SIKSUKR View Post
Ya, like a few members on this forum.
Wouldn't it be more suitable to read the merits of a debate at the appropriate time in the appropriate forum?
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Old 07-21-2009, 07:55 PM   #9
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Default Lake Chart

I also use a Duncan Chart because for me it is much easier to read. I tried the Bizer Chart and did not like it. I have only bumped 1 rock in the 19 years I have been boating on the lake and it was not because of the chart. I believe both charts state dislaimers due to possibly being inaccurrate.

By the way I looked at a new Bizer chart and they did not state that East Cove and Advent Cove are "No Rafting Zones". Neither did Duncan for that matter. So Bizer is not updated either.
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Old 07-22-2009, 08:14 AM   #10
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And some members are so full of themselves.
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Old 07-22-2009, 11:05 AM   #11
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My wife prefers the Duncan Press chart for the same reasons as Taz, ishoot308 and Winni Boater, it's easier to read. Me, I don't really have a preference, I'll adjust to whatever's available to use.

Our first chart was a Duncan Press but after a couple years, I pushed for the Bizer since they were touting better accuracy (I had already dinged a prop!). However, the next time we update, we'll probably go back to the Duncan Press chart because of her preference; she's my navigator and 2nd set of eyes watching the water and boat traffic so this time, she'll get what she wants!
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Old 07-22-2009, 12:00 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by SIKSUKR View Post
And some members are so full of themselves.

I can't figure out who you are talking to, Sik, but it struck me funny!
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Old 07-23-2009, 11:47 AM   #13
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Arrow Taz, new No Rafting Zones & map correction accuracy

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Originally Posted by Taz View Post
By the way I looked at a new Bizer chart and they did not state that East Cove and Advent Cove are "No Rafting Zones". Neither did Duncan for that matter. So Bizer is not updated either.
Taz, Bizer is updated. I looked at the corrections pages for the latest editions of both maps at their respective web sites today, July 23rd, 2009:

Bizer's 8th edition corrections page has the following information:
The No-Rafting area in/at/near Advent Cove in Meredith was omitted from publication.
The No-Rafting area in/at/near East Cove on Long Island was omitted from publication.

The Duncan Press Inc 2005 edition corrections page has:
Winnipesaukee 2005 Addition No Rafting Zone added Advent Cove in Meredith E-5 5/28/07 Marine Patrol

The East Cove area NRZ is not mentioned anywhere I can see on the Duncan Press site. Neither NRZ would be on their map as the NRZs were created a few years after Duncan's latest edition - the 2005 map - was printed.

BTW, everyone will have their favorite map to use for navigation around Lake Winnipesaukee - Bizer or Duncan. I carry BOTH on board the Sea Que but I prefer to use the Bizer map. Bizer is also good on cold rainy nights when the family gathers around the map with magnifying glasses looking for little tidbits to amuse ourselves .

Regardless of which one you like best, have at least ONE of them on board when you boat and boat safely.
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Last edited by Skipper of the Sea Que; 07-23-2009 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:21 PM   #14
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The NRZ may be on the correction page but the map I looked in a local marine store did not have the updated version to sell. I did not pay attention to the edition so maybe the were left over. However, the NRZ in Black Cove is a few years old now, Advent Cove I believe is 3 years old now and they were not listed. If thats the case it takes a long time for the newest edition to get to the local marinas.
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:48 PM   #15
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Skipper of The Sea Que: Your right about the corrections page. However, ommitted sounds like it is not printed on the charts. So what good is that? It does not seem much good to put it on the website but not the actual chart.
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Old 07-28-2009, 02:27 AM   #16
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Exclamation More inaccurate or missing information from Duncan Press

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taz View Post
The NRZ may be on the correction page but the map I looked in a local marine store did not have the updated version to sell. I did not pay attention to the edition so maybe the were left over. However, the NRZ in Black Cove is a few years old now, Advent Cove I believe is 3 years old now and they were not listed. If thats the case it takes a long time for the newest edition to get to the local marinas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taz
Skipper of The Sea Que: Your right about the corrections page. However, ommitted sounds like it is not printed on the charts. So what good is that? It does not seem much good to put it on the website but not the actual chart.
Taz,

I’m not sure what map you were viewing at your local marina. I would expect merchants would be stocking and selling the latest edition of the maps. Bizer’s recent eighth edition and Duncan’s latest is their 2005 edition.

If you don’t recognize the benefits of corrections pages on their web sites I won’t try to change your mind. An additions, changes and corrections page for each map makes a lot of sense to me. Things do change between printings and sometimes errors, oversights additions and deletions occur. I like to print the corrections and changes pages occasionally and keep them with my maps.

By the way Taz, thank you for helping make the point of this thread with the other NRZs. More inaccurate or missing information from Duncan Press. Duncan only adds Advent Cove as a NRZ on their corrections page – it is not listed on their current map.

Duncan Press does NOT even mention or recognize Buzzels Cove, East Cove or Black Cove as NRZs on their map or on their corrections and additions web page. What good is THAT?
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Last edited by Skipper of the Sea Que; 07-28-2009 at 02:30 AM. Reason: Thanks to Skip and APS for your kind words. It's nice to be back.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:46 AM   #17
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Thumbs down Duncan, resting on past reputation

It's about time someone called them out. Duncan appears to be resting on their past reputation. It seems to me like they are more concerned with trying to discredit their competition than they are with insuring the accuracy of their own product.

Did anyone else notice their comparison page? Features of Duncan Press current map, old map and their competitor's map? They compare their current map with Bizer's FIFTH edition map. They mention one change on the SIXTH edition Bizer map (the compass rose date) but the comparison chart is versus Bizer's FIFTH edition. Remember that the current Bizer map is the Eighth edition.

Why does Duncan not use the most current Bizer map for a comparison of features? I could understand their use of the seventh edition as the eighth is pretty new but using the fifth edition smells fishy to me.

Get real Duncan. Put more effort into your Duncan maps and web information rather than challenging the Bizer map. Just my opinion.
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:05 PM   #18
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Exclamation Laziness, deceit, inattentive, who knows?

Why would Duncan compare their own current Winnipesaukee map with the Bizer older 5th edition instead of using the current 8th or even the 7th edition? Could it be just laziness or inattentiveness or deception? Who knows (they know). I can only conclude that comparing the Duncan map to Bizer’s older map makes Duncan’s appear better than it would be compared to the more recent Bizer maps.

Duncan uses that comparison to their advantage in what I believe is a sneaky way. Their comparison chart proclaims that ALL buoys, not just the flashing light buoys, are numbered on the Duncan map. The 700+ buoys are not physically numbered, just on paper. On the additions page Duncan adds new buoys with the notation that Marine Patrol stopped using that numbering system in May of 2006. IMO that is a deceptive comparison since the current Duncan map is the 2005 edition which was printed BEFORE the MP stopped the experiment of numbering all markers. Therefore all the markers printed on the 2005 map are numbered even though new markers are not numbered. The newer unnumbered markers are not printed on the 2005 Duncan map. Is that sleazy or what?

The fact that on the comparison chart Duncan refers to a change on the Bizer 6th edition map tells me that they compare themselves to the 5th edition because it suits them as they obviously have seen the Bizer 6th edition and have not bothred to compare themselves to the more recent Bizer maps.

I think Duncan should concentrate on their own product and web site rather than trying to discredit Bizer.
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Old 08-02-2009, 03:52 PM   #19
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SKIPPER OF THE SEA QUE, Thank you for making my point. Bizer only adds Advent and East Cove as NRZ'S on their corrections page and not the actual chart. Bizer also does not add to the corrections page or the actual chart the Black Cove NRZ. Black Cove was designated a NRZ at 4 or 5 years ago. The Bizer charts being sold at Paraphanalia do not have any of these NRZ'S documented. I could not find anywhere on the charts what edition they were.
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Old 08-12-2009, 03:33 AM   #20
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Arrow Duncan did not pay Marine Patrol Secret Agent for lastest NRZ info

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taz View Post
SKIPPER OF THE SEA QUE, Thank you for making my point. Bizer only adds Advent and East Cove as NRZ'S on their corrections page and not the actual chart. Bizer also does not add to the corrections page or the actual chart the Black Cove NRZ. Black Cove was designated a NRZ at 4 or 5 years ago. The Bizer charts being sold at Paraphanalia do not have any of these NRZ'S documented. I could not find anywhere on the charts what edition they were.
Over the last few years 4 "newer" No Rafting Zones (NRZs) have been added to the list. We are talking about: Buzzel Cove, Advent Cove, Black Cove and East Cove.

None of those 4 appear on the latest Duncan Press map.
Just one of those, Advent Cove, is listed on their corrections web page.

Two of those are on the latest Bizer map, Buzzel Cove and Black's Cove.
Two of those, Advent Cove and East Cove, are on the Bizer web corrections page.

Of those 4, Duncan documents ONE NRZ,
Bizer documents all FOUR NRZs


Taz, I'm not sure how I helped you make a point but I am always glad to help. Meanwhile, I don't believe Duncan Press pays a secret MP agent for any info but it does make for a nice but possibly misleading "headline".

The way I see Duncan Press priorities, their web site still shows the 45/25 mph Speed Limits as in the screen capture above (click HERE if you don't want to scroll back), just in the area of Bear Island and Rattlesnake rather than Lake-wide. This summer though, they updated their FAQs area IMO to try to discredit Bizer.
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Old 08-13-2009, 08:16 PM   #21
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Skip, My point was that Bizer has not added NRZ'S to its current chart and are just as guilty as Duncan for not being updated or accurate. I support that opinion by pointing out that Bizer has not added Black Cove, Advent Cove and East Cove as NRZ'S on their current chart. See my last post where I point out that I looked at the newest maps being sold at Paraphanalia and they are not on the chart.

You helped make my point because you point out that Duncan did not add Advent Cove to its latest chart. Well neither did Bizer and it did not add Black Cove as you said in your last post or East Cove.

While a corrections page on line is fine it does not do you much good when you are out on the lake looking at your chart for information. You have pointed out mostly secondary things that have nothing to do with navigating the lake and avoiding rocks and shoals. Both charts do a very good job at that and I believe that is most important.
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Old 08-21-2009, 11:15 PM   #22
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Exclamation Duncan recognizes 1 of those 4 NRZs, while Bizer recognizes 4 of those 4

Quote:
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Skip, My point was that Bizer has not added NRZ'S to its current chart and are just as guilty as Duncan for not being updated or accurate. {snip}

You helped make my point because you point out that Duncan did not add Advent Cove (see note 1) to its latest chart. Well neither did Bizer and it did not add Black Cove as you said in your last post or East Cove.

While a corrections page on line is fine it does not do you much good when you are out on the lake looking at your chart for information. You have pointed out mostly secondary things that have nothing to do with navigating the lake and avoiding rocks and shoals. Both charts do a very good job at that and I believe that is most important.
note 1: Advent Cove is thee ONLY one of those 4 NRZs recognized by Duncan Press and it is only on their corrections page. They got THAT bit of info correct and updated. That's a good thing

You are right Taz, some information is more important than other information. As I said in the thread starter the Duncan inaccuracies range, in my opinion, from negligent to silly. As of today, 8-22-09, Duncan's web page is still listing the 45/25 Speed Limit on the Lake as ONLY in two areas, Rattlesnake Island and Bear Island - failure to update that info is a major disservice to boaters. The info on the Duncan additions/corrections page today is STILL as it appears in the screen capture in the thread starter - you can click HERE if you want to see it without scrolling back to the top. IMO that is negligence and should have been corrected long ago.

The No Rafting Zones are not navigation hazards and are not as important as other info. They do help show which group tries to be most accurate. We are all human and mistakes happen. Correcting oversights and mistakes and keeping updated IS important. If the Witches Rocks move, I'd like to know about it more importantly, I'd want to know if the markers move or are missing. Who will you trust to keep more current?

Duncan updated their web site this summer to try to discredit Bizer (see the "new" items on their FAQ's web page) instead of concentrating on the accuracy of the information they, Duncan, provide. Duncan Press priorities seem to be aimed at attacking Bizer rather than getting their own information in order. That is important to me.

You must have been looking faster than your eyes can read when you checked BLACK COVE. Both Bizer 7th and 8th editions have the legend markings of a NRZ and the words No Rafting Zone at Black Cove contrary to your observations - see the attached from Bizer edition 7 and also shown on their edition 8 - the one currently on sale at Parafunailia (and elsewhere).

A corrections (and additions) page on the web is valuable because things do change between printings - as I mentioned, I print those and keep them in a big zip-lock bag and carry it with my maps. I carry both maps.

There are more then 4 NRZs on the lake. Of the 4 we've mentioned, 1 is acknowledged by Duncan while all 4 are recognized by Bizer. It's a fact. Let's move on to other map/web site inadequacies unless you have something new to add to the NRZ discussion, OK?



Happy and safe boating.
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Old 08-22-2009, 08:55 AM   #23
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Default chart

You are correct about Black Cove. I made an error on that one. However, you made an error about Buzzell Cove. The Bizer charts being sold at Paraphanalia do not list it as a NRZ. While its nice to have corrections page its useless while out on the water.

The way I see it the charts are meant for one thing. To show the best ways to navigate the lake. I use Duncan and in the several years I have been boating here I bumped one rock and that was nothing to due with Duncan. It was my error.
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Old 09-09-2009, 11:18 PM   #24
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Thumbs down Changes on Duncan web site

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Originally Posted by Taz View Post
While its nice to have corrections page its useless while out on the water.

The way I see it the charts are meant for one thing. To show the best ways to navigate the lake.
Taz, Why would anyone not want to see any changes to your lake map? There are navigation corrections on the web pages not just NRZs. You seem to dismiss the need to see those updates on the web to use while out on the water.

Duncan Press made changes to their web site this month. They have not corrected the inaccurate speed limit information or changed the safety courses at Marine Patrol headquarters from Coast Guard to MP. They have changed the background color of their web pages. Instead of a green background their web pages now have a brown background.

I guess that is what is important to them but that change doesn't help anyone navigate.
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Old 09-29-2009, 03:32 AM   #25
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Exclamation A change (minor) on Duncan Press web site

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Originally Posted by Gilligan View Post
Taz, Why would anyone not want to see any changes to your lake map? There are navigation corrections on the web pages not just NRZs. You seem to dismiss the need to see those updates on the web to use while out on the water.

Duncan Press made changes to their web site this month. They have not corrected the inaccurate speed limit information or changed the safety courses at Marine Patrol headquarters from Coast Guard to MP. They have changed the background color of their web pages. Instead of a green background their web pages now have a brown background.

I guess that is what is important to them but that change doesn't help anyone navigate.
In addition to the color of their web page background they changed the Home Page so it says "September 2009". That's keeping current 'eh?

The have NOT updated ANY of the (mis)information listed in the thread starter. They still list the 2 Speed Limit zones that were the test areas from a few years ago - NO mention of a speed limit on the whole lake (not that I like the SL but it is the current law and should be published as such).

They also do not seem to have met their own challenge issued (or ranted IMO) on their Home page earlier this summer. They said we'll see which map (Bizer or Duncan) is most attractive and accurate by the end of the summer. I'll save that for another thread.
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