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Old 02-07-2006, 10:50 PM   #1
fatlazyless
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Default Senate scuttlebutt?

I wonder what's up with the latest NH Senate scuttlebutt concerning HB 162. Methinks, that somewhere in two seperate undisclosed locations, both the WinnFabs and the NHFbs are taking a close look and trying to handicap all 24 senators. Probably, every senator is pretty good at being unopinionated so as not to attract any extra attention. Even, if their mind is made up, maybe they want to keep their opinion to themselves.

Almost everyone here has their own strong bias including myself but I got to wonder about Senator Robert Boyce (R) of Alton. He represents Alton, Gilford and Laconia and so far I haven't heard anything about his opinion.

In Saturday's Union Leader, Senators Johnson and Gallus were interviewed so that still leaves 22 others. With the Senate comprised of 16 Republicans (one woman) and 8 Democrats (four women), that seems to be a big plus for those opposed to a speed limit.
So, what's the inside scuttlebutt? Anybody care to say here? Inquiring minds want to know!

Last edited by fatlazyless; 02-07-2006 at 11:07 PM. Reason: correct the numbers
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Old 02-08-2006, 08:31 PM   #2
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And, at least one inquiring mind would like to know when this will come before the Senate. Does anyone know?

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Old 02-10-2006, 06:56 PM   #3
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Default .......In committee!

According to the NH General Court website, as of today Feb 10, HB162 is in committee in the NH Senate. That is, it is being looked at by the Transportation and Interstate Cooperation Committee. I believe they decide whether to recommend, not recommend, or make any changes to HB162 to the overall Senate which has 24 Senators, total.

The Senate Transportation and Interstate Cooperation committee has six members with one chairman, one vice chairman, and four members.

And they are:

Senator Robert LeTourneau, Chairman, Republican, Derry, no email address listed

Senator Charles Morse, Vice Chairman, Republican, Salem, no email address listed

Senator Peter Burling, Democrat, Cornish, peter.burling@leg.state.nh.us

Senator Iris Estabrook, Democrat, Durham,
iris.estabrook@leg.state.nh.us

Senator Robert Flanders, Republican, Antrim robert.flanders@leg.state.nh.us

Senator Andre Martel, Republican, Manchester, andre.martel@leg.state.nh.us

The chairman and vice chairman do have snail-mail addresses listed in the State website but I don't feel comfortable about posting those here.

Probably some of the six committee members who represent districts in the southern area of the state do not have a feel for how big an issue this is in the Lakes Region. If everyone writes some nice, polite, to-the-point messages, maybe it could be a bit of a wake-up call for them.

best, fll
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Old 02-11-2006, 09:09 AM   #4
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Default Snail Mail

FLL,

I am told that the legislators do not respond as well to email as they do to snail mail. To make my life easier can you post the addresses and I will write a pro-speed limit letter to one and all. We have come this far it would be a sin to lose now.
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Old 02-11-2006, 11:16 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDeere
FLL,

I am told that the legislators do not respond as well to email as they do to snail mail. To make my life easier can you post the addresses and I will write a pro-speed limit letter to one and all. We have come this far it would be a sin to lose now.
All their contact informatiom (including thier mailing addresses) is listed here: http://gencourt.state.nh.us/senate/senatemembers.html
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Old 02-11-2006, 01:58 PM   #6
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It might be interesting to look at the contributors to the last campaigns of some of the senators. I have not yet had time to look too deeply, but at first glance I see that;

Senator Boyce received contributions from the Marine Trades Association, Lakeport Landing, and Lakeport Landing's Blizzard Family

Senator Letourneau received contributions from Lakeport Landing and it's Blizzard Family

Senator Clegg received contributions from Channel Marine, Lakeport Landing and Lakeport Landing's Blizzard Family.

Now before Skip accuses me of implying that these fine senators are going to vote according to the wishes of their contributors rather than those of their voters, I want to be very clear that I am making no such statement. Elected public officials should never have their integrity challenged or questioned, right Skip? But I do think this gives an indication of the general leanings that these contributors recognized aforehand in these candidates that led them to feel that contributions to them were good investments...much the same way that I have contributed to candidates whose philosophies mirrored mine. And if you look at the entire contributor base of some of these candidates, it makes it very clear what kind of contributor feels that its philosophy is mirrored by that candidate. Senator Clegg's base, for instance, is very heavy in the "fast fun" area; NH Speedway and the Bahre family, Snowmobiling interests, and marinas that sell fast boats. So it would be foolish to think all of these interests would have contributed to a guy they think would not vote on the fast side of an issue like this.

Last edited by Fat Jack; 02-11-2006 at 05:16 PM.
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Old 02-11-2006, 07:34 PM   #7
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Default ...Lakeport Landing Marina!

Yes in the fall of 2004, before the last election for NH Governor, I can remember seeing a 'Benson for Governor' on the large Lakeport Landing marque signboard on Union Ave, Laconia. While there is nothing wrong with that, it's a little unusual for a business to openly promote a political candidate since after all business is business, and a dollar is a dollar no matter that it comes from a pro-Republican or a pro-Democrat customer. Considering that Lakeport Landing's one and and only line of boats is the very high quality and very expensive Formula performance boats, it is undertandable why sinking the HB162 speed limit law in the Senate is real important for them. It's a moot point now, thankfully, but if Craig Benson were still Governor would he favor a speed limit for boats? It is also very fortunate for the speed limit supporters that former Speaker of the House, Gene Chandler, lost that post and we all know what happened to Gov Benson. If these two were still in those positions, it would be bad for the pro-speed limit and increased NH boater safety supporters.
Probably, out of the 24 State Senators, there's some who will definatley vote yes or no regardless of what their district's residents write or say to them. And then there's probably a middle group of Senator's who are truly undecided and are looking for some real honest reasons to vote yes or no. Do they want to say yes to no-speed limits for the benefit of the 32'-8000lb-1150hp go fast-be louds? Or, do they want to say yes to a 45day-25night speed limit for the safety of most motor boaters, sailers, most fisherman, kayakers, many waterfront residents, and the NH summer camp organization.

And, let's not forget, going 45mph in a boat is hardly a slow speed. It is a very fast speed!
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Old 02-11-2006, 08:46 PM   #8
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Quote:
these fine senators are going to vote according to the wishes of their contributors rather than those of their voters
Fat Jack, how do you know how the voters want their (my) senators to vote? How do you know what my wishes are? So far, it seems that the supporters of HB162 have had a larger voice, but that doesn't necessarily mean the majority of NH voters feel that way does it? Do we even know how many proponents of HB162 are NH voters?

Also, I believe most of those contributors you mention are voters as well as many of the people that support their businesses. Sounds a bit presumptious to me.

Seems to me that the Fat Lady hasn't sang on this one yet. Just one man's humble opinion your's will probably differ
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Old 02-11-2006, 09:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paugus Bay Resident
Fat Jack, how do you know how the voters want their (my) senators to vote? How do you know what my wishes are? So far, it seems that the supporters of HB162 have had a larger voice, but that doesn't necessarily mean the majority of NH voters feel that way does it? Do we even know how many proponents of HB162 are NH voters?

Also, I believe most of those contributors you mention are voters as well as many of the people that support their businesses. Sounds a bit presumptious to me.

Seems to me that the Fat Lady hasn't sang on this one yet. Just one man's humble opinion your's will probably differ
An independant poll found that only 22% of NH voters were against a speed limit.
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Old 02-11-2006, 11:13 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Island Lover
An independant poll found that only 22% of NH voters were against a speed limit.
How many people were polled?

Nice try...
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Old 02-12-2006, 10:35 AM   #11
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If it's the poll I think it is there were also a VAST number of people FOR speed limits BUT OVER 45. He didn't mention that .
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Old 02-12-2006, 11:16 AM   #12
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Even though I'm not in favor of the bill,I promise not to whine and complain if the vote does not go my way.I'll accept it and abide by it because we live in a democracy and a decision will be made after everyone has their say.
I'm wondering if the other side will do the same?????
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Old 02-12-2006, 11:24 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paugus Bay Resident
how do you know how the voters want their (my) senators to vote? How do you know what my wishes are?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GWC...
How many people were polled?
You are both right, this poll did have a margin of error. 600 were polled. The state's population is estimated at about 1.3M. One can go to http://americanresearchgroup.com/moe.html, or any statistical science resource, and type in that population size and that sample number and see that this results in a margin of error of +/- 4%.
So if we then reprint the results to include that margin of error, we find that the poll would look exactly like the following, if every last citizen of NH had been personally polled...including your "opposed" votes.

Question; "Do you favor or oppose a law that would impose speed limits for boats on large lakes in New Hampshire?"

Boat Speed Limits...........Favor..........Oppose.........Und ecided
All adults......................60-68%........18-26%..........10-18%
Voters..........................62-70%........18-26%...........8-16%
Republicans...................64-72%.........25-33%...........0-7%
Democrats....................79-87%..........4-12%............5-13%
Undeclared...................50-58%..........22-30%..........16-24%

But of course, Skip probably knows polling science better than ARG, from his days in the CG, and can probably tell us why this well-established statistical science is erroneous.
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Old 02-12-2006, 12:14 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Jack

snip

But of course, Skip probably knows polling science better than ARG, from his days in the CG, and can probably tell us why this well-established statistical science is erroneous.
Of course it's perfect, just look at the exit POLLS from the presidential election that had Bush losing, that turned out to be correct............
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Old 02-12-2006, 01:24 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Jack
You are both right, this poll did have a margin of error. 600 were polled. The state's population is estimated at about 1.3M.
Wow!!!

That's 600 polled from a population of 1,300,000 in NH.

In other words, that means that a majority of .046% (.00046) of the population in NH that participated in the poll are in favor of a speed limit on NH lakes.

Wow!!!

Did the majority speak or did the majority speak?!?!?!

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Old 02-12-2006, 01:27 PM   #16
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Default Mark Twain said it best.....

Since FJ insists on dragging me back into this endless debate by calling me out by name, forgive me Don....but


There are lies, damn lies…..then there are statistics

Mark Twain

The question put to the respondents in reference to the poll in question:

Do you favor or oppose a law that would impose speed limits for boats on large lakes in New Hampshire?


In my opinion, the poll results were to be as expected, what “reasonable" person would oppose what appears to be a common sense framed safety question?

Where the issue in debate invokes the philosophy contained in Twain’s quote is its application by proponents to HB 162. A strict reading and application of the question posed by the American Research Group would have resulted in legislation that invoked enabling legislation for the appropriate State authorities to implement speed laws, much as our current motor vehicle laws allow the setting of various speed limits across the State.

What the poll question did not do was establish any credence to the claim by Fat Jack and his group at Winnfabs is that support of the ARG question is tantamount to support of HB 162. If indeed Fat Jack & Winnfabs were sincere in measuring support for a blanket 25/45 MPH speed limit, then the question put to the respondents would have been:

Do you favor or oppose a law that would implement a 25 Mph nighttime speed limit and a 45 Mph daytime speed limit for boats on large lakes in New Hampshire.

So why was the question not framed as to match the legislation proposed? Simple, the customer (Winnfabs) had the question tailored to maximize the results it wanted.

Let me give you another example. Say I head a group of concerned citizens that want total abstinence to rule when it comes to alcohol and boating. I hire a company to poll New Hampshire residents, telling them I want the results of the poll to show overwhelming support for laws regulating drinking and boating, but I don’t want to let people know that we want to have a near zero tolerance for alcohol.

Easy, a company like ARG could then formulate the following type of query:

Do you favor or oppose a law that would regulate operating a boat after consuming alcoholic beverages on large lakes in New Hampshire?

Naturally the expected response of safety minded respondents in New Hampshire would mirror or exceed the responses found in the speed limit question. Next, my group has a lawmaker sponsor legislation that implements a maximum BAC (blood alcohol content) for boat operation in all of New Hampshire at .02 % (the average person one hour after having a drink or two). My group then claims that all voters in New Hampshire support this proposed law and cites the poll question as irrevocable evidence of proof.

Get it? See how special interest groups use statistical data to influence political debate?

Bottom line, Mark Twin had it right many decades ago. Politicians & political groups routinely skew statistical data to fit agenda of their particular mantra.

HB 162 has by far (except for educational funding issues) been the messiest bill to go through the House this year. The legislators I spoke to at both the Rockingham & Strafford County delegation meetings were embarrassed by the actions and statements that took place on the floor that day. The misinformation in the House was both disturbing and unnecessary. Case in point, applicability on the ocean. Remember when Fat Jack told us all that the bill did not include the seacoast, that these were federal waters? Wrong (again) and much needless debate centered on how to remove these waters from the Bill. As worded, the passed amendment regarding this issue is as clear as mud! This type of misinformation was aggravated by the bill not having adequate public hearing across the State, as it was always advertised and hearings specifically held as a Winnipesaukee only solution!

In closing, it is clear to me that many residents in New Hampshire desire some type of speed laws on waters in the State. It is my hope that the members of the State Senate listen to all sides of the debate and implement legislation that is stipulated and embraced by the law enforcement community, accepted as a fair compromise by all sides of the boating community and, most importantly, can be adjudicated fairly by the Courts.

In my opinion HB 162 as submitted fails all that criteria.

Skip

(Personal note for FJ….I never spent a day in the Coast Guard, my 12 years of service, as clearly annotated in my posts, were with the Navy & Naval reserve. When will you take the time to research your background material appropriately ???)
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Old 02-12-2006, 01:40 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ITD
Of course it's perfect, just look at the exit POLLS from the presidential election that had Bush losing, that turned out to be correct............
But I thought that you guys still believed that Bush actually did lose?

Anyway, I can't speak towards that poll...I just don't know enough about it. Perhaps you can provide specifics about the number of people polled, the randomness of the polling, the wording of the question that was asked, the numerical results, and the margin for error in those results...then we can talk about it from a position of knowledge rather than idle speculation.

And I'm sure there have been other polls with close results that were wrong. If this speed limit poll, for instance, had found a 52 to 48 favorable result, then I'd be the first to admit that it might have had the results backwards (+/- 4% MOE).

But results in the ARG poll ranging between 4 to 1 and 10 to 1 are just too high to be backwards. No one with a truly open mind and a belief in math and science can say with a straight face that this poll does not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that an overwhelming majority of NH's citizens favor speed limits on their lakes.

Let's take the Republican voters as an example, the margin is between 2.88 to 1 and 2.38 to 1 in favor of speed limits...that is too huge a difference to ever be overcome by any error in the randomness of a 600 person sampling. If we ever had a presidential election that was one fourth as lopsided as this, it would be an historic landslide.

And the Democratic difference was more lopsided than Super Bowl XX - between 21.75 to 1 and 6.58 to 1. How could any poll find a 22 to 1 "favor" result if a majority had actually opposed? ...impossible. Do you feel that the '85 Pats were better than the '85 Bears? You have to have some willingness to face reality or this discussion is just not worth having.

I also admit that that Dewey did not win in 1948 .... but does that somehow also mean that this ARG poll could have been so far off as to get a 21.75 to 1 result backwards?

At least be sincere enough to admit that most of NH's citizens want speed limits on their lakes or there is just no foundation here for an honest debate. You guys have other arguments that are much better than the one where you say a 22 to 1 poll result is wrong...you really should be sticking to those. I thought the one about the need to float speed limit signs all around the lake was pretty interesting. Why did you drop that?
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Old 02-12-2006, 01:54 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWC...
Did the majority speak or did the majority speak?
Keep relying on the notion that the poll got things backwards...a winning strategy. It worked in Committee, it worked in the House. Maybe you can convince the Senate that a 66% to 22% result with 4% margin of error got it backwards too.

I had a hundred quarters. I started feeding them into a coke machine. It ate the first five of them. But I did not believe that meant the coke machine was broken, so I kept feeding quarters in until my money was gone. That 5% sampling was just too small to convince me.

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Originally Posted by Woodsy...
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Old 02-12-2006, 02:23 PM   #19
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Skip,
With all the money that your association claims to have raised...with all the thousands of supporters you claim to have in the business community...with all the big rollers you supposedly have on your side whose departure is going to shut down our economy...did you spend a few dollars to have a poll done that asks one of your questions? I recall that there was a lot of talk about the poll that your side was having done, but I was wondering why we never saw any results published? Seems to me that we only have the results of this one poll to work with. But it also seems to me that these results were so lopsided that any additional poll questions with slightly modified wording would surely have just reproven the same thing... an overwhelming majority of NH's citizens want speed limits on thier lakes. I'm sure there could have been a better question or a bigger sampling. There is always room for improvement. But if they had asked say about 45MPH and then an amendment changed HB162 to 50MPH, what would you be saying about that question now? Hindsight is always 20/20.
If you have any "legitimate" poll results that disprove the clear and undenible findings of the ARG poll, please publish them here.

BTW, while some pollster apparently got the 2004 election wrong according to ITD, take a look at ARG's predictions and compare to the final results....http://www.electoral-vote.com/2004/p.../American.html ...amazingly accurate. Seems like a pretty good polling firm to me...who did you guys use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsy
The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.
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Old 02-12-2006, 02:31 PM   #20
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You don't really need a poll to know how people feel about having a speed limit on our lakes.
All you have to do is ask people who live here.
I've talked with many people about this bill and all but one person thought that it would be a good law to have. (That one anti-speed-limit-person was a guy in one of my college classes who is into high performance powerboats).

It's pretty obvious that the majority of NH residents who know about HB 162 are in favor of it. I think that if a larger number of people were polled - the results would still be about the same.
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Old 02-12-2006, 02:43 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Jack
Skip,

BTW, while some pollster apparently got the 2004 election wrong according to ITD, take a look at ARG's predictions and compare to the final results....http://www.electoral-vote.com/2004/p.../American.html ...amazingly accurate. Seems like a pretty good polling firm to me...who did you guys use?
I went to your link in counted the EC votes for red vs blue and you would clearly be saying your man Kerry would win via a landslide (305 to 214 according to my quick tabulation) if you didn't have the benefit of hindsight. I rest my case.
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Old 02-12-2006, 03:43 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ITD
your man Kerry
ITD,
Safety should never be a liberal v conservative matter, and your side should certainly not want to see HB162 become a partisan issue (recall that even Republican voters favor speed limits more than 2 to 1). Generally, it is the conservative base that favors safety and traditional family values and it is the liberal base that favors unfettered personal freedoms for the few at the expense of society and unlimited fun at any cost. Seems more likely that Kerry was your man...although I really don't care which candidate you voted for. This is not at all about who we voted for. The question is going to come down to whether NH's senators vote according to the overwhelming wishes of their voters, or cave to special interests as they have so often in the past. Either way...whatever happens in Concord this time...the tide has finally started to go out on the wild, loud, and fast crowd that had taken over our lakes and state like a dangerous street gang. NH's citizens are finally unlocking their doors, coming outside, standing up, and taking their state back. Once this trend begins, the results are inevitable.
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Old 02-12-2006, 05:18 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Jack
ITD,
Safety should never be a liberal v conservative matter, and your side should certainly not want to see HB162 become a partisan issue (recall that even Republican voters favor speed limits more than 2 to 1). Generally, it is the conservative base that favors safety and traditional family values and it is the liberal base that favors unfettered personal freedoms for the few at the expense of society and unlimited fun at any cost. Seems more likely that Kerry was your man...although I really don't care which candidate you voted for. This is not at all about who we voted for. The question is going to come down to whether NH's senators vote according to the overwhelming wishes of their voters, or cave to special interests as they have so often in the past. Either way...whatever happens in Concord this time...the tide has finally started to go out on the wild, loud, and fast crowd that had taken over our lakes and state like a dangerous street gang. NH's citizens are finally unlocking their doors, coming outside, standing up, and taking their state back. Once this trend begins, the results are inevitable.

I love it when you are proven wrong with your own info you CHANGE the subject......................
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Old 02-12-2006, 07:43 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ITD
I love it when you are proven wrong with your own info you CHANGE the subject......................
I was proven wrong? Just because I did not bother to address the rest of your erroneous response, both because I felt it was just an attempt by you (ironically) to divert from the theme of this thread and out of pity, does not mean I acquiesced.
But since you have challenged me;

Let us first go to http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/ for the actual EC map.
Then quickly click back to the ARG pre-election map that I had provided at
http://www.electoral-vote.com/2004/p.../American.html.
Now, in that web page, click on the names fo the other well-known pollsters; Gallup, Mason-Dixon, Quinnipiac, etc, to see their equivalent maps.

Of course, you can't count EC points on any of these pre-election maps, because many of the states are just "barely Kerry", "barely Bush", "too close", etc. ARG was recognizing that many of the states, like Ohio, were just too close to call (and they were proven right about that too). If you were counting EC points for those, then you probably shouldn't admit that.

But just using plain eyesight and looking at the color spreads on these maps makes it pretty clear how astoundingly accurate ARG's predictions were compared to all of the other pollsters. Are you unwilling to accept that? Are you going to tell me that Research 2000 or Quinnipiac did a better job predicting the results than ARG did? And ARG is the polling firm that you are now trying to convince us is unable to conduct a simple one-question one-state telephone poll? As John Stossel says "Give me a break".

Quote:
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Old 02-12-2006, 07:49 PM   #25
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Fat Jack. What do you have to gain by getting this passed? You must spend all your time working on it- just posting as you have on all the sites must be a full time job!
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Old 02-12-2006, 08:30 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Jack
I was proven wrong? Just because I did not bother to address the rest of your erroneous response, both because I felt it was just an attempt by you (ironically) to divert from the theme of this thread and out of pity, does not mean I acquiesced.
But since you have challenged me;

Let us first go to http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/ for the actual EC map.
Then quickly click back to the ARG pre-election map that I had provided at
http://www.electoral-vote.com/2004/p.../American.html.
Now, in that web page, click on the names fo the other well-known pollsters; Gallup, Mason-Dixon, Quinnipiac, etc, to see their equivalent maps.

Of course, you can't count EC points on any of these pre-election maps, because many of the states are just "barely Kerry", "barely Bush", "too close", etc. ARG was recognizing that many of the states, like Ohio, were just too close to call (and they were proven right about that too). If you were counting EC points for those, then you probably shouldn't admit that.

But just using plain eyesight and looking at the color spreads on these maps makes it pretty clear how astoundingly accurate ARG's predictions were compared to all of the other pollsters. Are you unwilling to accept that? Are you going to tell me that Research 2000 or Quinnipiac did a better job predicting the results than ARG did? And ARG is the polling firm that you are now trying to convince us is unable to conduct a simple one-question one-state telephone poll? As John Stossel says "Give me a break".


Jack,

I simply accepted your invitation to click a link that you said was “amazingly accurate” and lo and behold it wasn’t. It clearly showed Kerry as a leader in that election. The fact that later you need to lead me to two other websites and then add “Of course, you can't count EC points on any of these pre-election maps, because many of the states are just "barely Kerry", "barely Bush", "too close", etc. ARG was recognizing that many of the states, like Ohio, were just too close to call (and they were proven right about that too).” proves that you grossly oversimplified and erroneously represented the data in your original link. That’s the problem I have. Don’t say one thing and then provide a link that doesn’t come close to proving what you said and expect everyone to accept it because you took the time to write it!!!!!

As for the rest of your post if you’re calling me stupid, maybe I am, but I’m still smart enough to spot BS when I see it.
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Old 02-12-2006, 08:53 PM   #27
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I guess I just don't get your point. Are you saying that Kerry really won? Are you saying that all the pollsters got it right or they got it wrong? I guess just can't follow you on this. Let's move this discussion over to another thread...this thread is about the speed limit poll and it is just getting way off course. I'll concede that Kerry won if it will get you to drop it.
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Old 02-12-2006, 11:56 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Jack
I guess I just don't get your point. Are you saying that Kerry really won? Are you saying that all the pollsters got it right or they got it wrong? I guess just can't follow you on this. Let's move this discussion over to another thread...this thread is about the speed limit poll and it is just getting way off course. I'll concede that Kerry won if it will get you to drop it.

Here's the point Jack, and it is very relevant to the speed limit discussion:

Your give your link as proof polls are accurate, specifically your ARG company.

I go to your link an discover the example you give as accurate was in fact not accurate, the link shows Kerry (the guy who lost the election) as the guy who will win.

I point this out to you but you refuse to acknowledge that your example does not support your claim, you say something about looking at the colors (meaningless) rather than looking at the data (in this case EC votes, which elect a president).

Kerry lost Jack, the "poll" you cited showed he would win and you didn't see that. That's the point, makes me wonder about your speed limit data.
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Old 02-13-2006, 03:55 AM   #29
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Default Lies, damn lies, and statistics

We know politicians lie to get the vote. It works. They have won elections that way. The poll referred to here is based on similar actions. There was a well funded political action committee that used its money to lobby for the bill to be passed. It "educated" the non-boaters in the state, then took a poll which measured the success of its education program. Notice how there are no poll statistics from before the education process. Voters were educated on the danger of speed, and the Littlefield case was always mentioned. It was a smear campaign. Not about a person, but about an idea. Apparently targeted towards women too. That audience represents a generally less aware the facts about how boats can safely go over 45 safely, and can more easily be swayed by a campaign based on fear. They won the house vote. We can only hope the sentate is wise to the ways of political games and votes to represent the boaters of the state - those who know the facts.
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Old 02-13-2006, 09:26 AM   #30
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Default Maybe this applies to our NH Senate

"There is a tradition that, on his return from France, Jefferson called Washington to account at the breakfast-table for having agreed to a second chamber. “Why,” asked Washington, “did you pour that coffee into your saucer?” “To cool it,” quoth Jefferson. “Even so,” said Washington, “we pour legislation into the senatorial saucer to cool it.”"

From http://www.bartleby.com/73/294.html
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Old 02-13-2006, 05:29 PM   #31
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Default Poll

I cant find anything about the poll or the company that supposedly administered it ..Im beginning to think the winnfabs are still on the road of lies, deception and rhetoric..
Like the stories at the meetings about the speed boats leaving HUGE wakes etc ...
We all know its BS !
Lets hope the senators see it the same way
LIVE FREE OR DIE
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Old 02-15-2006, 08:13 AM   #32
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Default ...yesterday's Laconia Sun

In yesterday's Laconia Sun, there was a big front page headline article about the speed limits, HB162 bill, now in the Senate and how it could be sunk. The Laconia Sun is a freebie give-a-way paper that keeps getting bigger and better with more advertisers, more classified ads, and good local articles and good writers. As far as I know, it's not on the internet.

One thing it said was that the chairman of the Transportation Committee, (forgot 1st name) LeTourneau,(R) of Derry when asked how he will vote responded by saying 'look at my record.' It said he is a biker who voted against seatbelts, and motorcycle helmets.

Also, Sen Robert Boyce(R) Alton is against speed limits. And Sen Joseph Kenney(R) Upton who represents Wolfboro, Tuftonboro, Moultonboro is undecided.

A public hearing will be held in Rm 100, which is not a large venue, in the State House and did not say when.

The article went into a lot more 'ins & outs' of the poltical details about HB162 and overall made it sound like it will get sunk by the Senate which is 16 Republicans and 8 Democrats.
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Old 02-15-2006, 08:28 AM   #33
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Ooops what do I know, they do have a website,

www.laconiadailysun.com
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Old 02-15-2006, 10:23 PM   #34
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Default Friday February 24, 9am hearing scheduled

According to the Senate website, the Transportation and Interstate Cooperation Commitee has scheduled a public hearing in the large Representative's Hall which is the very large meeting room for NH's 400 State Rep's at the State House at 107 North Main St, Concord on Friday February 24 at 9am.

The Transportation Committee Chairman, Senator Robert LeTourneau, (mail your opinion to) 30 South Ave, Derry NH 03038,is a Republican of Derry and is a long time motorcycle rider and has always opposed any mandatory seat belt or motorcycle helmet laws and he seems to be against a speed limit for boats. As you probably know by now, the Senate has sixteen Republicans and eight Democrats so it would seem likely that speed limits will get sunk by the Senate.


Whether you are for or against speed limits, you know the opposition will be there big-time, so if you can get the time away from work (what's that!), maybe you want to put on your best formal baseball cap and go to the NH State House, Friday Feb 24 at 9am.

If nothing else, it's a good lesson in civics and there will be a surprise NH legislation quiz on the next day Saturday right here in this thread, and all quiz-flunkies (under 80%) will have to go jump in the deep open water in Meredith, next to the ice fishing derby headquarters. 'So, go take a long run off that long Meredith Town dock right ovah thayer, yessuh ayuh!' No exceptions! So, go study up, everyone!

Last edited by fatlazyless; 02-16-2006 at 12:32 PM. Reason: ...corrections
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Old 02-16-2006, 08:12 AM   #35
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Quote:
Do they want to say yes to no-speed limits for the benefit of the 32'-8000lb-1150hp go fast-be louds? Or, do they want to say yes to a 45day-25night speed limit for the safety of most motor boaters, sailers, most fisherman, kayakers, many waterfront residents, and the NH summer camp organization.
Wow, this statement is my whole problem with the supporters of this bill. You seem to think it is about the gfbl boats against everyone else and that simply isn't true.

Everything from bass boats , PWCs and sport cruisers will go 80+ mph. 45 mph is fast for certain boats and in certain areas yes. In the broads when I am going 50 mph with noone around it is not so fast. You get used to it very quickly. I am sure in a 30 foot sport cruiser it would feel really slow.
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Old 02-16-2006, 10:39 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RegalStan2450
You seem to think it is about the gfbl boats against everyone else and that simply isn't true.
Stan,
You are correct here...HB162 in not only about GFBL boats. It applies to all boats equally. HB162 is more a case of "all speeding boats against everyone else". But rather than turn yet another thread into a "discrimination against cigarette boats" discussion, let's get back on topic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SAMIAM
Even though I'm not in favor of the bill,I promise not to whine and complain if the vote does not go my way.I'll accept it and abide by it because we live in a democracy and a decision will be made after everyone has their say.
I'm wondering if the other side will do the same?????.
Samiam,
If a purely democratic process was followed and we had instead found that a majority opposed speed limits, and the legislature properly followed that mandate, then it would be imcumbent upon the minority to accept that result. That is what "living in a democracy" is really all about.
But when such an overwhelming majority of NH's citizens favor a speed limit, you should not expect that the opinion of 13 senators will stop this tsunami.
Reasonable speed limits on our lakes are inevitable, whether through HB162, or the next attempt that can begin as soon as next September. Rest assured, the citizens of NH who own these lakes and want to feel safe on them will ultimately prevail. That is what "living in a democracy" is really all about.
HB162 was just the start of a long process towards returning sanity to boating in NH...it is not at all the end of that, regardless of the Senate vote. That is what "living in a democracy" is really all about.
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Old 02-17-2006, 10:40 PM   #37
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Default 9 for - 10 against - 5 undecided

From www.thewmurchannel.com today, in a short article it says that in an informal poll the Senate is 9 for, 10 against, and 5 undecided. It doesn't go into any details or anything. Just like tv-news.....no details or follow-up questions. And now it's time for a commercial break....and another commercial...and another com...
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Old 02-18-2006, 09:49 AM   #38
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Fat Jack......I don't accept the premise that the "majority" of boaters want a speed limit.Anyone can manipulate a poll by carefully wording the questions.If the question had been "Do you support a law that would require boaters to observe a safe and reasonable speed" the results probably would have been the same. That said.....looks to me like you're considering the fact that the bill might not pass and you're getting ready for some non stop carping a la Al Gore and John Kerry.
But even if you do win,Jack, I'm affraid you're not going to be happy.Cruisers will still throw up 4' wakes.....Weirs bay will still be a madhouse.The gofast boats will create even bigger wakes going slower and the canoes and kayaks will take evn a worse pounding.
Wish there was an outcome that would please everyone,but I don't think it's possible.
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Old 02-18-2006, 10:46 AM   #39
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Just like when mankind tries to fool with Mother Nature ...we correct one thing and wind up screwing three more things up
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Old 02-18-2006, 11:40 PM   #40
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Its easy to disagree with a poll that has been published. Why doesn't the opposition publish their poll?

Could it be the results were the same?
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Old 02-19-2006, 07:40 AM   #41
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Default Its a matter of funding

Quote:
Originally Posted by Island Lover
Its easy to disagree with a poll that has been published. Why doesn't the opposition publish their poll?

Could it be the results were the same?
The opposition to the law attempting to define excessive speed, above the reasonable definition that we already have, is the NH culture and civil liberties. There is no organized group to go against those lobbying for it, except perhaps the Bass fishing community. There really aren't that many boats that can go above 45, and not enough people boat at night to be impacted by the 'wake increasing' 25 at night rule. Not enough people care about what is being done here. The US culture has become very lax about defending its civil liberties lately - from the federal level right on down. (which govenment workers are reading your email these days, and do you care?) The legacy that we are leaving the next generation is one of surveillance, force of compliance, and rules brought on by political action committees. Groups like the one lobbying for this law get away with "having it their way", because the citizens don't know where to start defending their civil liberties - and this law doesn't impact most people enough to make this case a priority, especially to voters that are not boaters. That doesn't make it right.

It is up to our congress to realize that the proposed law is being brought on by a well funded group of fearful people which has used public relations campaign and lobby techniques to sway the uneducated non-boater into believing a twisted view of the truth. It is up to those who care to consider their representitive's position and vote on this issue at the next election. I've written to my senator - have you!?
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Old 02-19-2006, 08:39 AM   #42
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Default Undeniable rights

As defined in the Constitution. I don't think anyoneone read that document anymore. LakeGeezer hit it right on the nail. NH is known for its civel liberties and true NH natives will fight to the very end. 'Live Free or Die'.

Wish I had a smiley with the NH state flag.
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Old 02-19-2006, 09:30 AM   #43
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Default Unenforceable

Senate public hearing is this Friday 2/24 @ 0900L at the Capital.

I'm afraid the bill will pass and become law, but not overly concearned since it is next to impossible to gain an accurrate speed reading from a RADAR gun in a boat.

There are several reasons: The gun will only give a true reading if the target is going directly towards or away from the RADAR gun. This is because police type RADAR calculates RELATIVE speed only. Tagets at angles will read substantially lower. If a target is traveling in a circle centered around the RADAR gun the speed will read zero!

Also, it is difficult to "lock on" a target from a boat bouncing on waves, not to mention the target is usually fiberglass, often small (PWC), and putting up a water spray also interfering with the RADAR.

I have over 25,000 hours experience with air traffic control RADAR, I understand the limitations of police RADAR.

So, don't get too worried even if it passes, it will only dissappoint those expecting enforcement!
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Old 02-19-2006, 11:28 AM   #44
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Default Enforcement is not the point

Quote:
Originally Posted by WT-RXT
So, don't get too worried even if it passes, it will only dissappoint those expecting enforcement!
Many people don't want to disobey the law - which is why ineffective proposals are worth fighting before they become law. For example, bass boaters in tournaments safely go 60-70 mph early in the morning. There is no traffic, the lake is flat, and their noise is quickly gone due to their speed. They are VERY safe boaters. This crowd is always concerned about its image, and in some cases, the tourney rules demand the laws are obeyed or the boat is disqualified from the contest. If a law is passed, these law abiding boaters will have to slow down. The result will be more wake and longer periods of noise at 7AM. So - there would be a negative impact to them and others who enjoy early morning quiet.
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Old 03-01-2006, 04:52 AM   #45
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Red face Easy: Exempt bass boats in tournaments!

The bassboat world speed record is 116.594 MPH: I suspect it wasn't "quiet". Every boat is quieter at slow speeds.

I can understand the bassboaters' gripe, though. Mostly, they are speeding equidistant from the shores: Even in fog , when there's no other craft on the water—certainly no sailboats.

That said, there could be an exemption for bass tournaments as there already is for "legal" speedboat races.

(But not for "illegal" races, as this eagle-eyed boater witnessed): http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforu...mes;read=15388
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