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Old 04-23-2012, 12:01 PM   #1
dippasan
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Default Four Winns Boat Porpoising

Hi Folks,
I just bought a 1995 Four Winns 190 Horizon for my older boys to use this summer so Daddy doesn't need to take them out tubing etc. every 5 minutes. It has a 5.0L V8 and is 215 HP. The boat runs terrific, planes quickly but porpoises pretty severely as soon as I start to trim it up. It's ok with the drive all the way in but that makes it plow and kills the top end speed. It doesn't seem to matter if there's 2 or 4 people in the boat or where they sit. Even trimming it up just a little makes it start to porpoise.
I also have a 28' Formula with twins so I know how to trim an engine and use trim tabs etc. I'm thinking about buying a "fin" for the out drive, but before I start drilling holes I wanted to see if anyone has had luck with one of these eliminating porpoising.

Thanks in advance for your replies.
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Old 04-23-2012, 12:12 PM   #2
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You can try a lower prop pitch, maybe cheaper than a fin and no drilling. Keep your old one as a spare, they may need it.

If you have a common outdrive and an aluminum prop, you may be able to try before you buy.
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Old 04-23-2012, 12:17 PM   #3
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I totally agree with jrc

Many years ago I tried one of those Fins on a 176 Stingray that we had .... no appreciable change (and the fins looked ugly)
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Old 04-23-2012, 12:21 PM   #4
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JRC,
Thanks for the quick reply. I researched several "fins" and the one that got the best reviews was the SE Sport 300 and costs about $60. Still cheaper than most props. I know they're popular on smaller boats as I see them all the time. I actually have 2 props that came with the boat and I will certainly try the other one to see if it helps.
Just thought I'd see if any "locals" have had good results with a fin.

Thanks!
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Old 04-23-2012, 12:29 PM   #5
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I totally agree with jrc

Many years ago I tried one of those Fins on a 176 Stingray that we had .... no appreciable change (and the fins looked ugly)
Thanks Phantom.
Why did you buy a "fin"? For porpoising or planing?

thanks
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Old 04-23-2012, 12:32 PM   #6
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I have the same boat , a little newer , I had the fin on my boat from when I bought the boat a few years earlier and last summer decided to take it off and see what happened .
Well basicly nothing happened . Ran the same so I woulden't spend the money.
Issues of this type do come down to the type and pitch of the prop.
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Old 04-23-2012, 01:27 PM   #7
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dippasan....

A boat porpoises due to overtrimming the drive relative to the speed the boat is traveling. Too slow + too much positive trim = porpoising.

Another cause for porpoising is a nasty hook in the hull. You can take a long straight edge to the bottom of the boat to see if this is the case. I doubt it though. If thats the case its not a cheap fix.

You didnt say who made the powertrain... I assume its OMC? In anycase I would follow the advice above and look at changing your prop. Not sure what the prop size was originally, (prob somewhere around a 14.25 x 21) but if you can find that out that would be a good place to start. Def go with a 3 blade stainless steel prop over the original aluminum. You can have some cup added to the prop to allow more bow lift.

Here is a link to Four Winns website... http://www.fourwinns.com/past_produc...20(p12-16).pdf

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Old 04-23-2012, 01:47 PM   #8
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dippasan....

A boat porpoises due to overtrimming the drive relative to the speed the boat is traveling. Too slow + too much positive trim = porpoising.

Another cause for porpoising is a nasty hook in the hull. You can take a long straight edge to the bottom of the boat to see if this is the case. I doubt it though. If thats the case its not a cheap fix.

You didnt say who made the powertrain... I assume its OMC? In anycase I would follow the advice above and look at changing your prop. Not sure what the prop size was originally, (prob somewhere around a 14.25 x 21) but if you can find that out that would be a good place to start. Def go with a 3 blade stainless steel prop over the original aluminum.

Here is a link to Four Winns website... http://www.fourwinns.com/past_produc...20(p12-16).pdf

Woodsy
Thanks for the link and the info. It is an OMC drive with the 5.0L engine. I just got the # off the existing prop and its a #3850300 which I cross referenced and seems to be a 15X17X3 prop. Also the boat topped out at about 47MPH which was a bit disappointing. Thought it would be more like 50 MPH with 215 horsepower.
Would you suggest the 14.5 x 21?

Thanks again
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Old 04-23-2012, 02:15 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by dippasan View Post
Thanks for the link and the info. It is an OMC drive with the 5.0L engine. I just got the # off the existing prop and its a #3850300 which I cross referenced and seems to be a 15X17X3 prop. Also the boat topped out at about 47MPH which was a bit disappointing. Thought it would be more like 50 MPH with 215 horsepower.
Would you suggest the 14.5 x 21?

Thanks again
I would only try a 19P prop. the 21 may kill the kid's fun, especially tubing etc
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Old 04-23-2012, 02:25 PM   #10
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Default Another view on fins (but for an outboard)

My 4Winns 18 with an outboard was porpoising badly. I added a fin and it helped a lot. Its been on there for 10 years and I'm happy with the way it works.
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Old 04-23-2012, 02:47 PM   #11
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If your Four Winns has the correct propeller, it should not be porpoising. Chances are, the correct propeller was damaged and the previous owner replaced it with something that could he could get used or cheap.

Talk to a dealer about what you should have, either Winnisquam Marine, or Melvin Village. There are so many of those boats out there, it is hard to believe they would perform so poorly.

Or google it.

I am sure there is a solution that will not require trim tabs, and like the other contributors said, don't put on a the wing on. The wing is out of the water when you are planed off. It will have no effect.

Good Luck!
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Old 04-23-2012, 03:05 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by holeinthewall View Post
If your Four Winns has the correct propeller, it should not be porpoising. Chances are, the correct propeller was damaged and the previous owner replaced it with something that could he could get used or cheap.

Talk to a dealer about what you should have, either Winnisquam Marine, or Melvin Village. There are so many of those boats out there, it is hard to believe they would perform so poorly.

Or google it.



I am sure there is a solution that will not require trim tabs, and like the other contributors said, don't put on a the wing on. The wing is out of the water when you are planed off. It will have no effect.

Good Luck!
Great info from everyone. What a great resource for information.
The link that Woodsy sent to me was great and showed all the boat specs including the recommended prop. It calls for a 14.25 x 21. The prop on the drive now that seems to be causing the porpoising is a 15 x 17 and my spare is a 14.5 x 19. At least the 14.5 x 19 is close and will hopefully make a big difference. If you see a Four Winns running laps between Sleepers and the sand bar this weekend....you'll know why. I'll be testing props.

Thanks!!
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Old 04-23-2012, 03:21 PM   #13
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Great info from everyone. What a great resource for information.
The link that Woodsy sent to me was great and showed all the boat specs including the recommended prop. It calls for a 14.25 x 21. The prop on the drive now that seems to be causing the porpoising is a 15 x 17 and my spare is a 14.5 x 19. At least the 14.5 x 19 is close and will hopefully make a big difference. If you see a Four Winns running laps between Sleepers and the sand bar this weekend....you'll know why. I'll be testing props.

Thanks!!
Some marina's will let you test out a prop before you buy. Personally I swear by a 4 blade prop on anything. I have run one on my Baja from day one and lost nothing on top end but gained handling and then some. Mine was a very expensive Lab finished prop and at $800+ probably not an option.
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Old 04-23-2012, 04:26 PM   #14
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Some marina's will let you test out a prop before you buy. Personally I swear by a 4 blade prop on anything. I have run one on my Baja from day one and lost nothing on top end but gained handling and then some. Mine was a very expensive Lab finished prop and at $800+ probably not an option.
Holy cow! That's about $50 more than I paid for the boat!!
Only kidding but it is about $700 more than I want to spend on a new prop. What advantage does a 4 blade have? Better out of the hole?

Thanks
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Old 04-23-2012, 06:37 PM   #15
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dippasan...

You have the wrong prop on the boat.... but it def explains the good hole shot. I would try to find a good used (not rehubbed or rebuilt) 14.25 X 21 per the Four Winns spec. Then go from there. The boat companies spend alot of time testing to find a good all around prop.

But if you really want to play with props..... a 4 blade 19P will prob rock the boat. It will give a great holeshot and pretty decent top speed. As a rule if you go from a 3 blade to a 4 blade you drop 2" of Pitch to account for swinging the extra blade...

Woodsy
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Old 04-23-2012, 06:56 PM   #16
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I went to Fays ..maybe three/four years ago. They have a loft with a bunch of used props. I picked one out..and they loaned me a used SS Cleaver for my Donzi Classic. They let me "Try It Out" for over a week..at no cost. They trusted me. I went back after the week and bought the prop. NB
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:07 AM   #17
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Default dippasan

Quote:
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dippasan...

You have the wrong prop on the boat.... but it def explains the good hole shot. I would try to find a good used (not rehubbed or rebuilt) 14.25 X 21 per the Four Winns spec. Then go from there. The boat companies spend alot of time testing to find a good all around prop.

But if you really want to play with props..... a 4 blade 19P will prob rock the boat. It will give a great holeshot and pretty decent top speed. As a rule if you go from a 3 blade to a 4 blade you drop 2" of Pitch to account for swinging the extra blade...

Woodsy
Unless you have ever experimented with props you would have no idea what a difference it can make.
I was only using my info as an example. Yes the prop was expensive but the difference in handling on my 25 Baja canít be described it had to be driven to appreciate. At speeds in the mid to high 60ís you notice things you just donít on runabouts.
As Woodsy mentioned the correct 4 blade prop will give you pulling power you never knew you had, yes you probably will loose some top end but you generally prop your boat to what you plan on using it for.
Also if you are plunking down 80-100K for a boat, a prop even at $1000 is nothing.
Good luck with your research
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:54 AM   #18
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Unless you have ever experimented with props you would have no idea what a difference it can make.
I was only using my info as an example. Yes the prop was expensive but the difference in handling on my 25 Baja canít be described it had to be driven to appreciate. At speeds in the mid to high 60ís you notice things you just donít on runabouts.
As Woodsy mentioned the correct 4 blade prop will give you pulling power you never knew you had, yes you probably will loose some top end but you generally prop your boat to what you plan on using it for.
Also if you are plunking down 80-100K for a boat, a prop even at $1000 is nothing.
Good luck with your research
I'm pretty familiar with what a prop can do for performance i.e. hole shot etc, but never really imagined that porpoising could be caused by a prop. Always figured it to be due to a poor hull design, center of gravity or weight distribution. After researching it for the last several days I have a much better understanding of why Porpoising happens and now fully understand why a prop will cause it.
I had a 25' Cobalt and now have a 28' Formula Bow rider with twin 260 hp's which I would have no problem spending the dough on for a performance prop.
The Four Winns bow rider is a $4500 starter boat for my 2 older sons (20 and 22) and I think will be a perfect boat for them if I can get this porpoising sorted out. I would love to go with a stainless 4 blade but I'd be afraid after a day with their friends out on the Winni, the prop might come back as a 3 blade if you know what I mean. (I remember when I was learning to drive a boat). I'm definitely looking forward to trying the 14.5x21. If I recall that's exactly what I had on one of my first boats which was a 21' Sea ray br with a 4.3.

Bottom line is I'm thrilled that the Sea Doo's are gone and the kids have a safe boat to use instead.

Thanks again for all the valuable info and we'll see you on the water.
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Old 04-24-2012, 09:57 AM   #19
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dipassan -

Based on your earlier decription of where you'll be out "Test Driving" is it a fair conclusion to presume that you might be in at WAM ?

If so, I would certainly think John would let you demo/test various pitch props
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:43 PM   #20
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Default Another thought

Quote:
Originally Posted by dippasan View Post
I'm pretty familiar with what a prop can do for performance i.e. hole shot etc, but never really imagined that porpoising could be caused by a prop. Always figured it to be due to a poor hull design, center of gravity or weight distribution. After researching it for the last several days I have a much better understanding of why Porpoising happens and now fully understand why a prop will cause it.
I had a 25' Cobalt and now have a 28' Formula Bow rider with twin 260 hp's which I would have no problem spending the dough on for a performance prop.
The Four Winns bow rider is a $4500 starter boat for my 2 older sons (20 and 22) and I think will be a perfect boat for them if I can get this porpoising sorted out. I would love to go with a stainless 4 blade but I'd be afraid after a day with their friends out on the Winni, the prop might come back as a 3 blade if you know what I mean. (I remember when I was learning to drive a boat). I'm definitely looking forward to trying the 14.5x21. If I recall that's exactly what I had on one of my first boats which was a 21' Sea ray br with a 4.3.

Bottom line is I'm thrilled that the Sea Doo's are gone and the kids have a safe boat to use instead.

Thanks again for all the valuable info and we'll see you on the water.
What about an inexpensive pair of fixed trim tabs? I believe they sell fixed ones or at least manually adjusted. That would extend your hull and possibly get rid of the problem and still keep your top end speed or increase it.
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Old 04-24-2012, 04:25 PM   #21
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dipassan -

Based on your earlier decription of where you'll be out "Test Driving" is it a fair conclusion to presume that you might be in at WAM ?

If so, I would certainly think John would let you demo/test various pitch props
Never thought of that. Great Idea! I am in at WAM and if the 14.5x19 that I have doesn't work I'll talk to John. Perhaps if I give him a deposit or something he'll let me try one out. I feel pretty confident that the 14.5x19 will make a big difference. I should be able to trim it out at least a little without porpoising. Even my big Formula will porpoise if I trim it too high.

Thanks again
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:22 AM   #22
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Hi Folks,
The boat runs terrific, planes quickly but porpoises pretty severely as soon as I start to trim it up...I'm thinking about buying a "fin" for the out drive, but before I start drilling holes I wanted to see if anyone has had luck with one of these eliminating porpoising.
Check out the iFourWinns site...

One suggestion was that "rack storage" introduces the problem, and that extended-transoms on FourWinns have a "hook".

Quote:
"I've checked the trim with the boat out of the water - it's OK. The hull is straight - no hook..."
http://www.smwebhead.com/phpBB3/view...st=0&sk=t&sd=a
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:42 AM   #23
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Default 15 x 17

I would think a 15 x 17 would let the engine rev a bit too fast at WOT and would also have a negative affect on the top speed. Kind of like having 4:11s in the rear end of a car.

We have a 19' Horizon with a Stringray Hydrofoil Stabilizer and it makes a big difference on triming the boat.
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Old 04-26-2012, 11:43 AM   #24
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Default Lots of advise on this thread.

I am familiar with 4Winns as I had a classic Liberator for my first performance boat. I experince 'chine walking' at speed. I usually trim the drive down, as I increase speed, I will trim up until the boat starts to porpoise and trim down. I used the trim.

The factory prop should be your starting point. If you experience 'blow outs' during tubing or hard turnings, going down a pitch helps but you will find switching to a 4 blade will be even better!

Some props like the Mercury Lazer creates bow lift, some props like the Mirage is good for heavier boats. Please look at the Mercruiser prop selection guide and you will see what each brand of props do to handling.

I know you have an OMC, but I am just giving you an idea what changing props can do to a boat. Winnisquam Marine gives excellent advise for your boat and I would take their word for it. Please give them a call, you won't be disappointed.

Have a wonderful summer with your purchase. See you on the lake!
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:42 PM   #25
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I have a 1992 FourWinns Horizon 190, OMC 5.0. Everything (but a $1200 gearset) is 100% stock. I have been running a 3 blade 14.5 x 19 since, well, since 1992. Most recent prop is a "Michigan", I think from Overtons. Never had a problem. I top out right at about 50 +/- based on water, fuel level, etc. Sounds like you just have the wrong prop on there.
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Old 05-07-2012, 07:16 AM   #26
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I have a 1992 FourWinns Horizon 190, OMC 5.0. Everything (but a $1200 gearset) is 100% stock. I have been running a 3 blade 14.5 x 19 since, well, since 1992. Most recent prop is a "Michigan", I think from Overtons. Never had a problem. I top out right at about 50 +/- based on water, fuel level, etc. Sounds like you just have the wrong prop on there.
Thanks Jersey Joe,
I have installed a 14.5x19 but haven't had a chance to try it out yet. I'm confident that will solve the problem.

Thanks
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:10 AM   #27
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You might be trimming it out to far for the amount of throttle you are giving it. My boat is prone to do the same thing and it is always a throttle/trim issue.
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Old 05-30-2012, 05:45 PM   #28
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now have a 28' Formula Bow rider with twin 260 hp's which I would have no problem spending the dough on for a performance prop.
The Four Winns bow rider is a $4500 starter boat for my 2 older sons (20 and 22) and I think will be a perfect boat for them if I can get this porpoising sorted out.
Sweet boat- easily my dream boat. I always have my eyes open for a Formula 250BR, 252, etc. Do you like it?

My son took the Power Squadron safety class last fall and received his certificate. Saturday was the first day that my old boat left the beach without an adult on it! He is a good boater so I only worry a little less The 86 Chris Craft 210 will be his to use.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:16 AM   #29
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Sweet boat- easily my dream boat. I always have my eyes open for a Formula 250BR, 252, etc. Do you like it?

My son took the Power Squadron safety class last fall and received his certificate. Saturday was the first day that my old boat left the beach without an adult on it! He is a good boater so I only worry a little less The 86 Chris Craft 210 will be his to use.
Thanks! Your Chris Craft sounds like a perfect and safe first boat for your son.
I absoutely love the Formula 280 Bow Rider. It does so many things so well.
Carries lots of people (yacht certification, so from what I've read there's no limit to # of passengers) I've had 18 people on it with plenty of room and cruising at 30mph. With the twin engines it maneuvers unbelievable (which I'm still getting used to), and gets on plane effortlessly even with a full load. It's very heavy so it rides like a dream, it never "slams", is incredibly quiet, almost no engine noise, great floor plan, ton's of storage and a very high quality overall feel to it. I appreciate it more every time I take it out.
I had a 25' Cobalt BR before that which I loved also but needed more passenger space. I would highly recommend a formula 260, 280 or 310 bow rider to anyone. The 310 was the largest bow rider made until this year when Formula revealed a new 35' CBR crossover bow rider. Pretty cool.

It just keeps getting better!!!!
Have a great summer and we'll see ya on the Lake!!
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Old 06-08-2012, 08:15 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Belmont Resident View Post
What about an inexpensive pair of fixed trim tabs? I believe they sell fixed ones or at least manually adjusted. That would extend your hull and possibly get rid of the problem and still keep your top end speed or increase it.
I have a pair of SmartTabs on my trailer boat to keep the bow down to cut through waves easier. The boat is light and rode up and over the waves too much. I had a cutty cabin years ago that was back-end heavy and was hard to get the bow down. It also porpoised a bit. I tried a fin but that didnt help at all. I wish i knew about the tabs then as they work great. Theyre about $150 and easy to install. The manufacturer has different models depending on your boat.

Ps. The tabs have a piston that extends the tab down until water pressure builds to compress the piston and push the tab up.
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