thoughts on winter transportation...
 

OK a question for the winter Forum folks...

We're still on the island, but soon the ice will be locked up thicker than the Alumcraft ice-breaker can handle... in past years that has meant we start walking over when we go out, dragging a sled with supplies if needed... not a bad walk (20 minutes) and that was fine for the sporadic weekend... but now that we're planning on spending more time there (and we're getting older too)... our thoughts have turned to motorized winter transportation!

Looked at some of the hovercraft and fan-boat kinds of things, but seem pretty pricey option to just get back and forth...

Now looking at snowmobile, or 4-wheeler ATV, or 4-wheeler UTV... we don't have plans to do any trail riding, just staying on the lake (hopefully on top of the lake, not in the lake)...

Any thoughts, recommendations, pros/cons, etc welcomed!

Merry Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, Festivus, etc to all -PIG

This seems like it would be quite than a fan boat/hovercraft and safer than a utv/atv/sno
Price seems right too http://www.maxatvs.com/maxatvs/index...Search&xsearch[0]=NH&query=dlr_state.like.NH&refno=1143&srctype=Dea lersProducts_detail

thoughts of winter transportation
 

There will be a time period at the beginning of winter when the ice will be too thick for the aluma craft, but too thin for a snowmobile, or any other type of motorized craft, and, possibly, even for walking. Then, in the spring, there will be a time period when the ice will be too thin for the motorized vehicles, and possibly even walking, but too thick for the aluma craft.

Maybe you won't be here during these periods, but, you never know just when they will occur (Mother Nature isn't always forthcoming).

I guess the answer is to always have enough supplies on hand so to be able to not have to make a trek during these periods.

This is another posibility.Don't know about costs but you do get to use your snowmobile on water or snow.
http://www.wisetechco.com/index.html

This year you can use your boat!

If this keeps up there could be a New Years day poker run!

PIG

A hovercraft or fan boat while nice that they can be used at any time are going to be expensive, I would think kind of a pain to deal with and just simply to exotic all around. Really if you think about it how many weeks per year would you want or need to get out there where that would be your only means of transportation? To me, not worth it... so moving on to ATV, UTV or sleds.

Sleds, yep they work great in fact that is my mode of transportation in the winter time. There are drawbacks to them though, biggest being you need snow! The snow is required for both lubrication and cooling. They are fast and fun, but if you have no desire to go trail riding or take any rides around on the lake over any great distance I would suggest this is not a very practical option.

ATV would be my recommendation to you. So long as it's 4WD and you invest in some chains in case you need them for traction. You don't have to go very far to get to your place so it's a short ride, usually coming out of Sheps there is a decent snowmobile trail packed down out between Bear and Pine, usually made by me, which will get you 90% of the way to your place. Rarely have I ever been out on the lake where the snow was so deep using an ATV would have been a problem. Plus... ATVs can be used year round for other stuff.

UTVs are kind of cool but I think they are way to expensive, bulky and heavy. I could see where you may get into a little trouble with one of those on the ice under the right conditions. One thing to think about big and heavy are not good attributes in the snow especially when they get stuck for whatever reason.

You could always get one of each which is a thought I have been mulling since I have 2 sleds and no ATV.

I'd think that an Argo might be just the ticket: http://www.argoutv.com/products/6x6-650-hd

Its basically an ATV that is amphibious. It would probably do well in unpacked snow up to a couple of feet but you'd have to keep if off of groomed snowmobile trails. Its advantage over the snowmobile or ATV is you can use it when the ice is uncertain in that if you break through you will float. What I'm not sure of is, if you break through the ice and are floating in a hole in the ice...will you be able to climb the thing back on top of the ice...but I would imagine the dealer could arrange a demo for that.

I think hover crafts and fan boats are probably the best solution but probably also too pricey for the limited use.

Unless they have significantly made improvements ....

They sit and bob in the ice hole !

We had one go through at our small Lake here in MA a few years back.


.

... el cheapo amphibious vehicle
 

Here's my two cents; go take a look in craigslist-nh for a used aluminum jon boat for about $250, about 8' length complete with oar locks and two 6' wood oars; go find a sturdy set of lengthy, maybe 84", real wood xc skis at a thrift store and attach the skis to the bottom of the jon boat, and use some of those rubber lined aluminum washers aka leak-stoppers to attach the skis so the holes drilled through the aluminum boat for attaching the skis will not leak. Attach a couple lines to the bow and stern for dragging the boat around the winter lake ice, snow and open water.

This 8' jon boat with skis and oars should weigh about 90-lbs when empty and can hold two or three adults as a rowboat in the water.....an el cheapo amphibious vehicle to be dragged across the snow and ice, rowed through the water, and provide some(?) safety should the boat or you break through the ice and go into the icy cold water. Best to get a quality jon boat built by a name brand like Starcraft, Lund or Alumacraft which has the factory installed flotation, and is a smart move to give the flotation a trial wet-test dunking so you know how it floats when swamped....just in case.

And, the same setup can be done with an aluminum canoe and paddles ..... and maybe just not to use any skis attached .... probably is best to get out on the ice and give it a trial run or two...a 17' aluminum canoe and an 8' aluminum jon boat weigh about the same...about 70-lbs

Wow
 

You guys are brave. I wouldn't want to be playing around with an ATV on the ice during ice transition times. Every year I hesitate to go on the ice with my snowmobile for the first time because I don't want to be one of the statistics of those that push the season. Every year during the early and late season everyone says "Stay off the ice because it isn't safe!".

An ice boat may be expensive and whatever but it seems like the only safe way to navigate dangerous ice.

Maybe I'm just a chicken.

Ice fishing on Winni led to my passion for ATVing but, there have been too many times where there was a foot of powder snow on top of a foot of slush and water, on a foot of ice. It was slow or impossible to move on my atv at those times (even with tire chains). Tracks will go where tires won't, just slower.

I really envied those people with UTV's that had tracks instead of tires. With a canvas enclosure, heat, stereo, GPS and a cargo bed; it seems like the perfect solution for a winter island visitor. (I'm pretty sure the UTV comes with wheels and the track kit is a lug-wrench bolt-on seasonal conversion.)

There is a long time forum member (from Welch's Island I believe) that has posted pictures of his rig. He could always get to his ice shanty when I couldn't. In 60 mph winds at 5 degrees, he was cruisin with tunes in his pajamas while I was suffering in my eskimo gear. He had two seats in his cabin and I had no cabin.

The UTV's are a bit heavier but, weight is better distributed by the tracks to provide more square inches for your pounds per square inch. {If you go through the ice; an ATV will float (upside down), a UTV without air filled tires just don't.} In some cases, an ATV/UTV with tracks can be used and registered as a snowmobile for some sled trails but this isn't universal. The tracked quad may not tear up the trails like tires might but, you'll be travelling much slower and present a traffic hazard to the sledders.

No matter what surface vehicle you choose, you'll still be limited to approx. 6-8 weeks of good ice per year.

It's been a while since I priced them but, a new full sized utility atv can be bought for $5-8 thousand and a UTV for $10-13 thousand, stock. The track conversion kits run about $2-4 thousand more if I recall.

If I had a modest lottery win, I'd rather be towing one of these new tracked UTV rigs behind my 12 yr. old pickup truck, than to buy a nice new pickup.

You have a good point that I didn't mention which is the track kits that are available for both ATV and UTV. While very expensive it does give either or much more versatility than a sled. The tracks for the UTVs seem far more substantial than those on an ATV which admittedly appear to offer more float in deep snow or as you say when you get the slush layer under the cover of snow. Even so I still would rather deal with a stuck ATV than a stuck UTV because the ATV is light enough to be manhandled by a person or two. A UTV I think you're need another machine to get it unstuck.

It all comes down to how much investment you want to make and bang for the buck. In PIG's situation he doesn't have to cover a far distance and for the most part once the ice sets in there are few slush holes that form in the area he will need to traverse. Also there are usually ample sled tracks that make a good packed path most of the way out so even with just a decent set of tires and 4WD it's likely he'd not have to much trouble. Again I would not suggest this as an option if the idea is to go out joy riding all over the place. The trouble with winter transportation is that conditions change rapidly and vary greatly so finding the perfect solution for all situations is difficult but I think an ATV probably is the best all around choice when weighing total cost of investment noting that it's not always going the be the best for any particular situation, but certainly functional.

Other considerations
 

Safety:
Even if it's a short ride over a packed trail, a riding a solo machine is risky. Make contact with someone nearby before leaving shore.

Two single seat quads might be better than a side by side UTV.

...the 8' jon boat
 

For rescuing people who break through the thin ice, many fire departments have been using an aluminum jon boat for a rescue vehicle for years. They are relatively inexpensive, and light weight and can be dragged across the ice, and pulled, paddled, or rowed to transition from ice to water, and from water to ice, while remaining pretty stabile due to the designed up-sloping, flat and wide bow in the front. Two people can drag or carry an 8' across the snow and ice, and maybe three or four people can drag or carry a 12' across the ice-snow on a frozen lake.

They come in different sizes too; 8', 10', 12' and 14'. I have a Lund 8' jon boat with two 6' oars that cost me $400, about 10-years old-used, and it is surprisingly stabile in open water, and can handle weekend Winnipesaukee motorboat wakes-choppy water of 2 1/2' to 3' which makes for a fun and rocky, rolling ride, but safe enough to not have to worry about it. I have never got swamped yet, so rolling about and practicing rowing is a confidence builder for what it can do while seated on the middle seat and rowing the boat. For best stability, two people should both sit on the middle seat, with each person rowing one oar, sitting side-by-side, which makes for a very romantic rowboat.....cha-cha-cha!

I am a huge fan of airboats. There are a few threads on them. I had one for a season, it was great. I could carry 6 people and run it in a tee shirt with the 50k btu heater. Open water, broken ice, snow, didn't matter- I could go anywhere comfortably and safely. Mine was a Thousand Islands Airboat, not the Florida style open boat.

It would be a pricey option since you don't have a long way to go from the mainland to Pine, but if you want to get out on the lake at all during the winter there isn't a safer way to go. Occasionally you will see a used one pop up on Ebay for $15-20k, there are a few newer ones listed presently in the $45-50k range.

This would work well in most weather......


http://robinsonheli.com/rhc_r22_beta_ii.html

Volume may be objectionable...
 

Maybe this builder will part with his "Back to the Future" hovercraft.

Construction is not what it appears! :eek2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=okwGzZbjZnc

Cow Island-April 2011-airboat fatality
 

Wasn't there a 62 year old guy who drowned or died some way in April, 2011, while returning to Cow Island by himself in a Scat airboat. It was about 90-feet from the Cow Island shoreline, and he was a living out there or something.

So's ....let me guess what happened based on what I have seen with airboats going from open water to ice. To get up onto the ice shelf, airboaters will increase engine power to power up the bow onto the ice and move forward....and sometimes the airboat can flip-flop backwards over and become upside-down on the water, or half on the water, half on the ice, or the slush or so. Anyway, in the April 2011 Cow Island airboat death, something went dead wrong?

The accident in question happened on a small Scat hovercraft, not an airboat. Completely different animal. I heard that it was not moving at the time, it was more of a tipping accident.

I have never heard of an airboat flipping over backwards getting on to the ice, certainly not around here. The type that I was talking about is more of a traditional fiberglass boat that you sit down on and is not top heavy.

www.scat.com.sg/ and go to recreational products, there's two models, an Intruder and a Mirage both same size at 6' x 9 1/2' and a third model, a Liberator , at 6' x 12' long.

In the April, 2011 Cow Island fatal, was it in the water or on the ice or transitioning from the water to the ice......wonder what went wrong? Wearing a pfd, and maybe even wearing a dry suit could have made a differance?

Here is the original thread, which you were part of:

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...highlight=scat

The reports state that he fell out of the craft while trying to start it after a stall (the pull cord broke and sent him back over the side). He capsized it trying to climb back in. It sounds like it was overloaded to begin with.

Hovercrafts of this size are fine for basic back and forth transportation with no cargo, the one in question was not rated to hold much more than the occupant.

.... all about dry suits?
 

Will have to go search Etcetera Shoppe and St Vincent de Paul for a quality dry suit, size XXL .... hopefully for thirty dollars or less. Walmart doesn't sell dry suits. Parafunalia is closed till March 28. Is there any place in the area that sells dry suits.......are dry suits very uncomfortable to use and wear?....are they expensive?.....what's a decent dry suit for a low price somewhere?....to be used for kayaks and for sailing a 12' sailboat in April, May, and early June....when the water temp is 35-60 degrees?

What do cold water kayakers, sail-boaters, and hover-crafters like to use for a comfy dry suit that is low priced?

http://www.apsltd.com/c-8473-what-to...de-dinghy.aspx

After seeing the super-high prices for a dry suit.....think I'll do all my cold water sail-boating in the 104-degree, hot tub......arrooooo! If you go from a 104-degree hot tub to a 34-degree Lake Winnipesaukee.....what do you get? ...... pretty danged cold! ....but if you drink three 18oz Beck's beer while still in the hot tub.....when you get into the 34-degree lake Winnipesaukee....it will be much easier to get totally wet in the lake.....and then roll around on the snow.....before crawling back into the hot tub.........arroooooo!

http://annapolis.craigslist.org/spo/4820819843.html Sz XL Kokatat dry suit with lots of good photos $500, used?

FLL

FWIW - An 'airboat' is like a john boat with an airplane propeller pushing it.

There are sit down in/ traditional hulled boats with fans that are airboats as well. See my post above. These are not the everglades style.

Argo / MAXX
 

An amphibious Argo or Maxx is a good solution most of the time. Their Achilles heel is when there is snow and crust on top of snow and ice. When the machine breaks through this type of strata it is held up by the crust and snow and the plastic tracks on ice aren’t much good, you’re stuck. Ironic that they can handle most anything other than that.

Why not go over the lake rather than ON the lake. You dont need a license for an ultralight and it's actually quite fun and can be landed on any surface, ice, water, or land if you get the proper body similar to that of a hovercraft. The difference is that a hovercraft's body is vulnerable to being punctured by ice chunks. You wont have this issue with a similar body with an ultralight. My grandfather is an ex-pilot (he's now 78) and he still flies ultralights and has all sorts of different landing methods depending upon the body he uses. An ultralight can land and take off in 80 ft, but I've seen him do it in 40 right on my front lawn.

Besides, wouldnt it be a cool experience? :)

It might not be an option for you, but it's certainly an "option" hehe.

http://backcountryaerosports.com/faqs.ydev <--- All of the most common ultralight questions/answers.

Take particular notice to TEMPERATURE. The colder it is, the more stable it is for flying which means it's great to fly ultralight in colder seasons when boat is not an option :) If it were me, I'd have 4 modes of transportation. The legs on this trike are interchangable. It can use wheels, floats, hover floats, or ski's. Hoverfloats are the "all-terrain" method for trikes but they are significantly heavier. You can land them on any surface as seen below:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/V9lKQmoMl4g/0.jpg

If if you are ok with not having the safety of a glider, you could get one of these badboys:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VaG0LQBcgY <---- BTW, the "rotor" is not even connected to the engine. It's called a gyrocopter. The Rotor is spinning on it's own. It will even spin if you kill the engine! This guy says it best here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8IB-5PbL9U "Most aircraft below 800 feet, if the engine dies, you are left with no time to recover. But for us, we dont care if the engine dies!" Then, he kills the engine LMAO". It's a cool vid to watch on gyrocopters which can land and takeoff in even shorter spaces than trykes.

1. 4 Wheeler for when there is no/little/packed snow on the ice (usually early winter), safe enough for snowmobile, but terrible on the tracks (Another option would be an enclosed side-by-side ATV, its a wheeler with a cab basically)
2. Snowmobile for winter or if snow is to deep for the wheeler
3. Boat (this goes without saying, its the best option when its open water season)
4. Ultralight, good for the tweener seasons (Fall/Spring). Also a cool way to check things out from above no matter what the season and believe it or not, they are actually safer than sleds/atv's. They do NOT need a motor to "fly". You can kill the motor and still fly for very long periods of time depending upon updrafts and what not. Its no different than hang gliding. Just try not to land in a tree ;)

So like the seasons, Mobility should have 4 methods when you're living "off the grid". I've lived in Alaska and this mentality of 4 types of transportation comes from those experiences.

http://media.whydevelop.com/t/www.tr...edia/71702.jpg <-- doesnt that look cool? Who needs a sled when you have one of these beasts :)