Another one hits the rocks
 

We live in a wonderful place for the last 31 years.

We also live in an area that has some rocks that are clearly marked on all charts and has additional markers defining the "do not navigate" area. Oh I might add that it is a No wake Zone (NWZ) besides!

But each year we witness so many people having no clue what the markers mean and just barrel through and slam into the rocks. We see it coming and start asking each other are they going to hit the rocks. We usually run out to forewarn them but most times it is too late. So we jump in our boat and cruise out to them to see if we can help.

It happened several times last week and again today. Go figure. Last week there was this high performance beautiful Formula that was cruising through not paying attention and then boom bang, thud, and another sickening thud. They all stopped and looked around to see what caused the last "thud. Then they try and start their engine and try move forward hoping that knowing happened.

After they raise their stern drives they say "Oh Sucks...Darn.. I should have known better". (Yea sure they say that) The high performance Formula owner tried to put his twin engines in gear one at a time. The first engine reved up like it was in neutral. Oops what does that mean? You guessed it.... no prop. He decided to swim out over the rocks to see if he could find his $1200 high performance stainless prop. No luck.

I went over to see if I could help. I suggested he should check his engine compartment for any kind of leakage. I asked how could I help. He said no problem I will run on one engine back. Well back meant 10 miles back to his marina. In this case I learned that his brother in law was driving the boat and had little or no experience or not even a lic.... you guessed it.

Then today, my wife saw a boat with a couple of gals coming through the NWZ bow way up in the air. Huge wake and heading for the rocks again. She ran out to the dock! But too late another Bang, thud, another thud and then silence. Then a scream....OH No! my husband is going to..... me.

A rock collision last year, I really felt sorry for the driver of the boat. I again saw it was going to happen. It is a sickening sound again...thud, boom, thud and then silence. We run out again to see who it was this time. It was four young late teen girls. I went out to help them. I towed their boat over to our dock and helped check out their engine and lower unit. It didn't look good. The lower unit and prop were a mess. My wife offered to take them to the nearest marina or if they wanted to use our phone to call home. The girl diving the boat said...OH NO....I Can't CALL Home. MY dad will .....you fill in the blanks. We asked why and she said his boat just got fixed and put back in the water because I did the SAME THING last weekend! Scream and tears!....Oh No I understand. I feel so bad for you.

This past week we counted on average four boats hitting the rocks. and get this! There is a huge sign that says caution "LOON CHICKS".
every boat has headed for the LOON CHICK sign and the hit the rocks. Go figure!

WE try to help as much as we can....BUT IT will never end. We see people holding up their charts and we think they will be OK. But no... they still hit the rocks.

What is the problem with these people. We just hate to see them have a awful day when we hear the sound. We wish we could help but it is always too late.

All I can say is please people look at your chart and understand what it means and GO SLOW and PAY ATTENTION!

Fair winds.....and Happy sailing!

Chasedawg

Wow, I could feel the pain with each thud that you described.

Perhaps install a webcam. It may make for some interesting youtube videos!

Where, may I ask, are these aluminum magnetized rocks?

I always try hard to follow all markers and charts, but have been caught off guard myself.

Knowing the area you are talking about will allow me to preview the charts and be well aware of the issue.

Are you on Chases facing Farm?

Additional markers?
 

We had a similar navigational challenge in our neighborhood, although I can't figure out why. There is a buoy set out from an island, marking a ridge of rocks from the island that are close to the surface. Yet, once or twice a year, someone (including once a marine patrol boat) went on the wrong side of the marker and hit rocks. The solution, as discovered by a neighbor, was to add an additional white Clorox bottle buoy on the rock side of the marker. Since then, everyone figures out which side of the buoy to go on, and nobody has hit the rocks. A simple solution that maybe will work in your situation.

By any chance are the Williams your neighbors?

I try so hard to follow the chart to a T but I did get thrown off this year being up in Center Harbor and all the little islands which all look the same. So at one point (mind you I'm driving and trying to read the map at the same time while Hubby relaxes), I slow down because a marker was coming my way that wasn't on the map. All of a sudden Hubby yells lift the motor shut it down. Which thankfully I had the reflexes to do so, and wouldn't you know there was a huge rock under us! Thankfully no damage (especially where it was a rental). We also got turned around on another trip and all of a sudden we were facing the witches. Thankfully at that point I knew where I was and how to avoid them. I'll take the Rattlesnake Island area any day, I can identify that island so easy. And there isn't as many hidden rocks!

Like I said to my brother the other day who said how he'd love to come up to Winni with his boat "GET A MAP and FOLLOW IT CLOSELY".

If there are that many people hitting the same rocks in front of your place then I would put out one or two clorox bottles by the rocks (illegal or not!) to help guide them. You may just save someones life! I would then inform marine patrol of the situation and request them to install additional navigational aids (markers) to assist boaters in that area.

Yes there are a lot of inexperienced boaters out there who either make mistakes or don't know how to read a navigation chart properly or not at all. I have been boating the lake most of my life and have made mistakes and been on the wrong side of the marker like EVERYONE else here. Let's help these people as much as we can as none of them deserve to die in a boating accident which could be easily prevented.

Dan

Stay Close to Chases Island
 

The correct side of the buoys is close to Chases Island, with a lot of water on the other side to Farm Island. I guess some people just assume the correct side is the one with more water.

I like the idea of another buoy (or more likely a pair, with one on each side of the no-wake zone).

One way to keep the boneheads at bay!

Have a little compassion. My guess is you have it a rock or two. I busted one prop up pretty good outside of the Graveyard. Very painful!

Broadhopper-- that was clearly uncalled for !

Are you telling this forum you have NEVER got disoriented or cut the wrong side of a marker ?

If so ........................
(Never mind)



.

Chasedawg,

I'd still like to know where this place is on the lake. If you prefer, PM me and I won't repeat it. ;)

Thanks!

Posted last year
 

I hit the rocks off of The Witches. Only because the marker was way off. I'm not the only one as others have complained. I took until this spring when the buoy was finally in the right place.

About 7 PM last night a pontoon rental was stuck in The Witches, I called it in and the MP was there in minutes. Stuck around until everyone is safe. Found out the pontoon boat only had a 25 HP motor so that it can be rented out to people without a boater's certificate! Someone needs to change that. Also found out it was the skipper first time boating and he was lost trying to find the Weirs. He didn't know there was a map on board?????

The world is full of clueless people who run around banging into things. :rolleye1: While I would also offer to help if I was nearby, the extent of my sympathy has become limited. When you run around in ignorance and carelessness, bad things will eventually happen. The teen daughter is an example. She did it before and her dad lets her take the boat again? Duh! Was she texting at the same time? Hope he has lots and lots of spare cash because neither he nor his daughter seemed to have learned anything the first time around.

Now I also get how even careful people can ding a rock in this lake. I did it on an unmarked rock when I started boating here 20 years ago. It's an unfortunate cost of boating around here. If you stay in the main boating lanes the chances of it happening are far less. I explore other areas on a jet ski or kayak. No more propeller dings since.

I tend to have the same viewpoint as you. I haven't hit anything *yet* but I also go pretty slow and cautiously if I'm in an area I don't know well. On this lake, or any other.

My apologies Rich....It has been sort of mention several posts in this thread.
It is between Chases and Farm Islands over towards the NE side of the lake and in the 19 Mile Bay area. It is on the South side of Chases and the North side of Farm Islands. It is in the NWZ. There are two black and white markers. As someone mentioned earlier there is more open water closer to Farm Island.

The narrow side or North side of the markers and the correct passage is along Chases Island. It is clearly marked on the charts. The rocks are in about 4' of water at high water. It always gets those who do not pay attention to the NWZ and the black markers.

One of the issues I feel is how the black markers are placed. The far West one is closer to Farm Island. So if one is not paying attention and look at both markers it appears that safe passage would be to go between them. Obviously, that is the worst possible course to take and "another one hits the rocks" will most likely will occur. If they are obeying and following the rules of the NWZ ( We know about that discussion in another post) they will probably clear the rocks. And those that do will generally let out a frantic scream...STOP!...ROCKS!

It has been mention by VitaBene that we should hire a painter and paint the rocks florescent. LOL :<)

What would you do?

Well if I read you right there are four damaged boats a week in there. That's a 30-40 boats a season. I'd think the MP would take notice and improve the markers.

If they are not interested, you could obviously do something. Two 12" round orange buoys, $35 each at Amazon, 20' of nylon line and two cinder blocks, for less than $100 and an hour of time you could mark the two biggest rocks on the bad side of the markers.

I guess it depends how much it bothers you that this is happening, it doesn't sound like anyone is getting hurt. So how much time and money are you willing to spend to prevent total strangers from breaking their boats.

Chasedawg,

Thanks for clarifying. I haven't made it over to that part of the lake yet, so I'm happy to have your clarifications.

I looked at the Navionics web app map (http://webapp.navionics.com/?lang=en ), and I can see how some could be confused.

The Lakeport Channel
 

Is clearly marked with channel buoys yet I have seen many people ignore the Headway speed marker and plane right into the rocks in front of Irwin Marine. On occasion someone would float some Clorox bottles in the area hoping it would be a deterrent.

I would like to make two proposals to NH legislature. One all motorized rental vessels regardless of horsepower, the lessee must pass the boater's safety course. Two, lessors of motorized vessels must inform the lessees of all safety features such as a map, life jackets, throwables, whistle etc. Unless there are already on the books.

I don't think this is too much to ask.

Just now...another one hit the rocks!
 

I can't believe it. My wife is sitting out on our deck just now and she said to me "another one hit the rocks". This was at 6:25 PM this evening. I went out to see if they needed help. It was a elderly couple and it looked like a brand new Colbalt! I waved to them to see if I could help. They went slow for a long way then opened the boat up to WOT. Good luck to them. Hopefully they will make it home.

What is the difference?
 

I agree with the concept but you can't legislate common sense. I am against more laws and regulations. There are many licensed, seasoned boaters on this lake that violate the rules daily. Two of the most significant accidents on the lake in recent years were with very seasoned boaters at the helm.

If someone rents a vessel to head out on the lake and doesn't have, or inquire about a chart, then there is not much hope. If they are not smart enough to know they they need it then what would you expect? You can't fix s.....

I was going through the Weirs Channel today and someone was coming towards me in the middle of the channel. I was operating a boat with a 14 foot beam. After honking at them three times, motioning to them, they forced me aside and as they passed asked me what I wanted. I explained that they couldn't take their half in the middle. They didn't get it. They went under the bridge, dead center.

It's getting worse. I have seen more violations and dumb moves in the last month than I have in the previous 5 years.

If they don't see the 2 no-wake markers, the 2 black and white spar markers, and the rather LARGE floating, orange floating sign that says "Caution! Caution"
(Warning of loon chicks in the area) they aren't going to see any more bouys.

I agree, you can't legislate common sense. And you can't fix stupid. But when you let inexperienced people go out on the lake, piloting a boat, with little to no experience, it puts everyone else on the water at risk.
It's not all about that driver, yeah, I know, they're on vacation...we can't ruin their "fun" This is NH, the "Live free or die " State
It's also about us, who have to share the water, and our kids, who also are out there on the water.
We can't rent a car without a (real) license. Why do we allow people to drive on the lake without that real experience?

Sincerely, you can't fix ignorance as made apparent by the "teen" who did it before.

It is really unimaginable to me why people still try and go between Pig and Varney Point. At least 2x a year someone tries even if you yell at them to back up they ignore you and the big sign painted in red lettering that say ROCKS! Danger. Typical response "I got it" as they hit the rocks, grind the prop . . .

Great story telling too. Thank you.

WE have a place right Near Chase and Farm. As a matter of fact I can see it from my Dock. First of all, clearly I have to pay better attention while i relax, I haven t seen anyone loose a Prop this season lol. Although I do see several idiots a week burn through there and Ignore both the NWZ and the Loon chic sign. But I have to disagree, although I had a boat growing up in that area as a kid. I only recently bought a boat 3 seasons ago. I think it is pretty strait forward, go north of the 2 Black top buoys. In the 3 seasons Ive put about 180 hrs out on the lake and there are much more dangerous and complicated places the deal with. if they can't navigate that properly then they have issues.

Chaselady, the other Chase asks what he could do, I don't know the area very well, I always go around those islands not between. But more buoys is really the only practical solution. You say there are enough buoys now but at the current hit rate, eventually someone is going to get hurt.

Misha, I take my kayak between Pig and Varney every weekend, I can't believe anyone would try to bring a boat through. Sometimes my kayak scrapes the rocks. I still don't know how the guy gets his Campion in there, especially in the fall.

The Marine Patrol do not have a problem with bleach bottles that are placed in an area to be helpful. Naturally they reserve the right to remove them if they don't like the placement.

I think what would work here is to find an old busted in half boat and secure it up on the rocks. That might give boaters a visual indication of which side of the markers they should be on.

Then you could have a cute name for the area like "Hole in Boat Bay" or "Propeller Pile Cove". I was sailing the coast of Antarctica when we came on a large dangerous rock. The chart actually had it's name "Full Astern Rock".

http://icetent.net/page/2/

So is this how Nipple Rock got its name? :laugh:

The gap between Big and Little Barndoor
 

We have a similar problem here except boats are on full plane and don't see the tiny not navigable markers. The water depth goes from plenty to 2 feet with big rocks and these boats hit hard and stop dead. There have been many hulls, lower drives, kids on tubes, props and human noses broken in this spot. It can be scary; especially at night.

Great read for new teen boater
 

Thanks for all these posts, stories and details. My 15 year old son is a not-yet licensed boater in our part-time boating family. We are regular Winnisquam boaters and drive with the chart out finding most every marker when on the 'big lake' so we know where we are all the times. Even with diligence we have found ourselves on the wrong side of markers. Each time not serious and great lessons 'for him'. I came across this blog and enjoyed the writing style on a serious subject so I started reading out loud to both my teens around the campfire. Since we couldn't envision the hazard zones, he ran to get the lake chart. We found each place mentioned as I read and we all had a great discussion about safety, stupidity, tolerance, kindness and responsibility.
Not naut for naught.

Several years ago my son and I were fishing the mouth of the Merrimac River around dusk when a cigarette boat came barreling in through the mouth around 60 mph and hit the rocks near toothpick on the Salisbury side. Thank god, no one seriously hurt, but pretty much a total loss of a $60,000 boat!

Been there, done that!
 

I am not afraid to admit that I have hit rocks also. It was over by the Weirs, out by Governors' Island and that other island (can't remember the name) where the NWZ is. And I have been on this lake 25+ years. Saw them coming. Jammed it into reverse, spun the wheel and JUST clipped it. Took the boat to the marina right after and got it up on a lift. Thankfully, no damage...just a scratch on the hull.

I will say that being on the ocean 97 percent of the time, I get spoiled with channel buoys and day markers! That's not to say, however, that at least once every weekend, I hear MAYDAY calls from mostly sailboats (usually from out-of-town ) hung up on the rocks just outside Logan Airport. Usually you hear the Coast Guard say "Just wait until High Tide" (Well, not always!)

Nobody's perfect, but the Charts are printed for a reason. Situational awareness needs to be really drilled into peoples' heads when they get their licenses...

Close
 

Just a heads up (one that I was fortunate on!): The blinking light at Sandy Point is considerably INSIDE the marker. Heading to the Bay for ice cream , I gave decent berth to the blinker, only to get spooked by the black marker sliding by the boat. I only wish I could get a dock post that close when landing....

I've heard that unless you draw 6 feet or more, there's nothing to hit between the markers at Sandy Point.

Yup. Mainly for Mount.

ChaseDawg, I know the area very well.... I have been boat in that area of the lake for 25 years now.... It amazes me every year how many people screw up goinging between chase and farm island. Not having lived in that specific area however I had never noticed just how many boats are damaged through there. Although I have once or twice been told that I was an idiot and on the wrong side of the markers, in which case I just stayed quite and prayed for the other guy...

I don't believe that there is any more that needs to be done by the MP as far as additional AtoNs. The danger area is very well marked. I would not try and put additional rock markers out there, because it will certainly only add to the confusion.

The problem for some reason in that area of the lake, is that people seem to loose a conception of where north really is. And because that side of the lake is not as busy as the southern side of the lake there aren't always people to "follow".... Thus on the northern side of the lake there always are more rocking hitting episodes, in certain areas.

You are doing your part, by helping people out when they screw up. You check on them, and help them out, that is what is important and you should be commended for. The only thing further you could do is look at their map with them to see how they got the impression that they where doing the right thing.



On another not no matter how well things are marked, some people just seem to be inclined to leave there mark on rocks... I have a rock to the side of my dock, that I have marked. My neighbor thought it was a good idea too, after he hit it several times.... even though he knew it was there. So each year it gets a noticeably bouy anchored by it, almost as soon as the ice goes out. One Spring a few years ago some guy was trolling along the shore before any docks where in, and I was working on the camp, I very audibly heard a passenger say, "that bouy probably marks a rock". The next thing I heard was a loud thud. When I looked They where examining a just newly converted 2 bladed prop.... Luckily they had a trolling motor and putted away, but not before hitting another rock, several doors down, for good measure. The second hit of course was there hull hitting the rock, so they didn't damage the trolling motor prop. I did eventually see the boat, down at the marina, being repaired, but I always wondered, if that skipper set out on the day, to find all rocks close to shore. If he did, he was doing a dam good job of it.

Practice, practice, practice! :D

close again
 

It wasn't that I was on the wrong side of the marker, it was that I missed hitting it by a very narrow margin. I have watched countless boats run the wrong side of that marker without issue over the years, and have wondered what the situation there is. Similar with the markers at the South end of Rattlesnake.
As for landings, I practice whenever possible: At least once for every trip out, and I make those trips at any chance I can!

I volunteer at a Boy Scout camp; the Health Staff there sell T-shirts with the slogan "Stupidity should be painful".

If boat operators have to repair their boats often enough, they'll learn to navigate properly or stop boating. Either option will stop close encounters with rocks.

A few weeks ago my wife and I were near the witches and saw a good sized boat going right through the middle of that area at a fairly high rate of speed. We tried motioning him to slow down and to turn away but he just waved back at us and kept going. How he made it is beyond me but he did.

I noticed a couple new red markers, marking the rocks on the "wrong side" of the buoys between Chase and Farm. Great idea!

Glad you like them....many thanks to Cate P. for bringing them over.
Unfortunately, yes, you guessed it, we are still seeing people go on the wrong side.
Two boats in a row, today. Hitting the rocks when they went between the 2 black and whites, and between the two red jugs!
I asked the second boat (as his female companion was pushing their boat away with a paddle " can I just asked you why you went on that side of the markers?"
His response was "I thought you always go on the other side of those markers"
(Meaning the south side) So I said, no you should go either north or east of black and whites. I told him we are trying to figure out what is causing so many accidents by these markers, and that we had put out extra red bouys.
His response...." I thought it was a mooring field or something"
???!!!!!!! I didn't even ask him why he felt he should plow through the middle of a mooring field.

You need a large sign, in clearly written block letters that can be read from a distance and from people bouncing in a boat:

Or perhaps a bright safety orange painted float on EACH rock labeled in bold black letters ROCK on all sides of the float.

That will look very pretty...

ROCK ROCK ROCK . . . . ROCK ROCK .... ROCK ROCK ROCK, ROCK ROCK all over the place! :laugh:

You should have, it probably would have been an interesting answer and might have provided hours of entertainment for us here! :D

We should come up with a questionnaire for these people to fill out after they've hit the rocks there, simply for our own entertainment! :laugh:

I went through there yesterday and was wondering how people could get this wrong. I saw the tide bottles and laughed... Since there is more space on the side with the rocks than the safe side maybe they think wider is the safe water?? A quick look a the green dots on the chart and it's clear where to go.

A couple of questions?
Do people really really go around without a chart just guessing what side of the marker to be on?
Does anyone really use the direction of travel to determine what side of the marker to go on? I just refer to the Bizer chart.

Did you or your friend get permission from Marine Patrol to put new unofficial markers in the lake? Could be an issue for whoever put them in if an accident happened due to these unofficial markers. I understand the intent but is it worth the potential liability?

The marine patrol would have a difficult time keeping up with all the jugs that mark rocks. If some one hits the rocks, isn't that a failure to keep a proper look out? I think they would lose in court.

That was my point, the last thing we need is for people to start using bottles to mark navigation routes. The occasional bleach bottle to mark a rock near shore is common and appears is acceptable practice but that should be it.

I would use a different color than red..... if you see red and black markers you are supposed to go between them, in this situation it is easy to mistake black over white for black if there is a red marker nearby, bleach bottles would be better......

DEJ...Thank you for alerting us to a possible liability concern of placing unofficial markers in the lake.

To that regard...we asked a MP officer what is the liability and should we remove them. We advised him that many boats had hit the rocks and we and many others were concerned enough to see if we could alert folks with putting floating objects marking a hazard.

He said he was fine with the markings. As long as they are not a navigation hazard. He would want to check each out to see if it could be a potential issue.
He said there are a few areas that are not marked on charts that have hidden rocks. Some folks do put out a "bleach bottle" markers. It would be best, however, to call the MP to advise them and to grant permission.
He said it was a very busy summer. Most issues enforced were NWZ and 150 rule violation. Boats out at night with no lights on were also a problem.
The MP officer was very professional and offered to help explain any issues or questions. I felt as though he and the MP Management would be very helpful in a meet and greet community session explaining what they experience on a daily basis and reasons for their actions. ( I offer this as a suggestion for a possible meet and greet briefing and gathering. Would any one like to attend such a informative session around the lakes region?)

The officer gave many examples what they run into day and night that could be potential dangerous situations.
He said any time you see repeated violations don't hesitate to call the MP. They will be vigilant tn making sure any violations are scoped out and enforced.

Good deal. Like I initially said I understand the intent here but what was done was not the placement of a bleach bottle marking a rock near shore, these bottles you put out are in the middle of a very busy travel area. They could confuse boaters since they are not official markers. I believe another set of official markers placed by MP where you have the bottles would solve the problem and do so the proper way.

I hope this trend of private citizens placing home made markers in the lake is discouraged by MP in the future. Can you imaging what the lake would look like if this activity is allowed to go unchecked.

When I kayak, I see dozens of private rock markers, doesn't seem to do any harm. I'm sure a lot of locals know their area better than the MP. You can't expect the government to do everything for you.

That area is officially marked fine. If you have the Bizer chart there should be NO confusion. FOLLOW THE GREEN LINE ON THE CHART. I doubt those markers are ever called confusing. The people who hit the rocks are just not using them at all.

With that said I would probably change them to white instead or red bottles not to make it look like you between them and the black.

I agree the area is officially marked fine. If more markers are needed then Marine Patrol should make that decision, not the general public.

Well since the only reason we have markers it to prevent accidents and if we have a lot of accidents, then by definition the markers are not fine.

I don't know the actual statistics about how many accidents happen compared to other places, I don't live there. But people who do started this thread and indicated that they thought too many happened. They did a good deed to help prevent a few. I applaud their selfless effort.

Your logic is flawed. The markers are indeed fine, it is the boaters who pass on the wrong side of these markers that are not fine.

JRC, DEJ and others... We thank you for your very valuable and helpful comments supporting us or not trying to help boaters we see most every other day alerting them not to damage their lovely boats when they go on the wrong side of the markers.

For many years we have yelled and screamed to the unbeknown boater that they are heading for rocks. We have learned it is not only the boat renters that hit the rocks, but are boat owners who have years experience on our treasured lake.

You know you can only help folks for so long. We want to live a free conscious and move on. Even with our years of years experience on the Great Lakes and Captain on NH waters it is time for some one else to take control and help these poor folks.

So we have decided with all of your constructive and positive comments that it is not worth our anguish any longer. We will let the MP and the local governing body do as they wish to help prevent further very nice and genuine folks and families from hit the rocks.

Tomorrow we will be pulling the markers and leave it as has been for 30 plus years. Unfortunate Cate we tried.

Fair winds and happy sailing!

Maybe DEJ will volunteer some of his time to give you a hand.
I'm sure it would give him great pleasure seeing these markers being pulled.

Thank you for your concern about boats hitting the rocks...However in a lot of cases No Good Deed Goes Unpunished.

You are doing the right thing Chasedawg, thank you.

Now that you have a MP contact perhaps you can suggest something to them for additional official markers.

Nice try CD
 

I'm not one that believes the government can do it better than people who are actually involved. Too many examples to cite.

That's too bad, chase. How did this thread get so turned around?

Chasedawg, don't let the negative comments of a few discourage you from trying to make your piece of the lake safer and more fun for so many inexperienced and unknowing boaters (and some very experienced ones too). Knowing you from your posts, and having met you a couple years back, I'm a bit surprised that you are throwing in the towel and giving up on your efforts to help fellow boaters.
Please keep up your good efforts to help out fellow boaters as you have done for years.
This great lake needs more concerned and helpful boaters like you.
Thanks for your efforts.

I hope he continues to help boaters also however placing bottles in this area is not the right approach, sorry if the truth hurts. People hit rocks by going on the wrong side of markers all over this lake, can you imagine if people started putting bottles marking rocks at every marker in the lake what confusion we would have. It baffles me why some cannot grasp that. There is a right way to do things and a wrong way, this attempt although noble was wrong. OK bash away, I am done.

I just sit and shake my head .......

It is UNBELIEVABLE how 2-3 posters can take a thread and turn it upside down !

:(





.

I guess my point was the markers are not confusing IF you have a chart and use it. If you do not have a chart or don't use it nothing short of a fence in front of the shoal is going to help you. If the people who hit the rocks picked a different route that day they would have hit some other rocks. You just can't drive around blindly for very long on Winni.


I would not be detered by posters. Leave the markers if you think they help.

I have to fundamentally disagree with you that placing additional markers is the incorrect approach here. You're trying to use a slippery slope fallacy here, and it's nonsense. One person adding markers to some rocks in a problem area isn't going to cause markers to appear over the entire lake.

It's generally quite accepted for people to place markers at hazardous locations near their own docks to mark rocks to avoid. This is just an extension of this practice.

It's also quite possible that it's not entirely possible to resolve the issues in this area with the current marking system that NH uses, without placing channel markers here. There is a well known problem with the NH marking system that's only resolved when there is a chart on board the boat to observe the depth of the water and accurate location of the hazards.

There are two zones of ambiguity with the Red-Black system and these are when the hazards are north west of the marker or the hazard is south east of the marker. In this case the hazards are south east of markers and if the captain of the boat thinks that they are heading on a north-south, rather then an east-west course they are going to go on the wrong sides of these markers.

While there's little defense for not having a chart on board, it's all too possible that once you become fairly proficient in navigating the lake you might not realize that this location is one of those zones of ambiguity. It's also possible that some of these captains have been navigating this area the wrong way for years and have never hit anything yet.

As a personal example, my inlaws live just off of the hole in the wall. The first time I came through the hole in the wall in my own boat, I was confronted with a red marker in front of me. I was traveling north east at that point. Now I knew that you go outside of this marker from visiting prior. But when I was trying to figure it out for the first time it was extremely confusing. If I was traveling east I should have been on one side of the marker, If I was traveling north I should have been on the other side.

I know that there's not a lot of real hazards here judging by the number of boats that we regularly see go on the wrong side, but I still was fighting to incorporate my knowledge of navigation in a real world example.

I think few people can morally justify standing back and waiting for official action to be taken while they have the power to help people. I commend chasedawg for attempting to take positive action in this situation, and I condemn you DEJ for either your uncaring attitude or you thoughtless appeals to authority.

One last comment, at the risk of causing more anguish for chasedawg.

I been boating on this lake since 1980's, I don't see many, if any new markers since then, the MP does not like to add or change markers.

So I'm sure that the current markers are technically accurate but are they effective? There are dozens of different ways to mark the same hazard. Sure you can blame the operators, but hundreds of other rocks on the lake don't get hit this often.

I only have this thread to rely on for information, but chasedawg reported four damaged boats a week. They tried to improve the situation and they get grief, I just don't get it. People would rather win an argument then have less accidents? Do we want to argue about blame, or prevent a few accidents?

I guess I just don't understand people anymore.

I would never condemn anyone for expressing an opinion here but that is just me, morally I could never do so. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one, have a safe and a great rest of the boating season everyone.

I don't see this as a contentious divisive thread. Nothing wrong with an open discussion of issues.

I live on Long Island facing Little Bear. Two red channel markers are in a somewhat ambiguous position although, strictly speaking, I believe they are correct. Regardless, my kind neighbor puts out 2 obviously home made markers to mark a relatively large area just outside the channel. This area is only about 1 foot deep and is many hundreds of feet from shore. I am certain this has saved a lot of props and more. Regardless, I have witnessed a number of boats getting stuck in this area.

My point is, although I do tend to believe that navigation aids should be the province of the MP; sometimes common sense can prevail.

I do appreciate Chasedawgs efforts to make boating safer, even for the Boneheads.

Marine Patrol official response
 

I asked Marine Patrol via email for their opinion about the "home made" markers between Chase and Farm Island. It is not intended to extend this debate, just passing along this information. I am posting their response here with their permission.



Thank you for your email. The New Hampshire Marine Patrol takes a lot of
initiative to ensure public bodies of water are adequately marked for safe
boating; so you are correct that "private" markers are not approved on navigable
waters across the state. Typically if a "home-made" navigational aid is located
it is removed. While the intention is good, to your point, if everyone took it
upon themselves to "courtesy mark" what they perceived as a navigational hazard
may cause greater confusion to those trying to navigate an already precarious
body of water.

If there is concern that an area needs to be marked differently than it
presently is we encourage folks to contact us. On occasion we do add
navigational aids or have moved existing ones that may have come off station due
to ice flows or tampering.

Of course we always encourage boaters to use a navigational chart and to take
advantage of the many electronic devices available to ensure safe boating.
However most importantly folks need to slow down and not boat faster than their
knowledge and abilities allow.

Please don't hesitate to contact me with any further questions - respectfully,

Joshua Dirth, Sgt.
Division of State Police
Marine Patrol
31 Dock Road
Gilford, NH 03249
www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/nhsp/

I think no markers are effective if you don't know how to interpret them or if you don't understand the lake.

I can't count the number of times I have saved boats, usually with eager looking, smiling kids in the bow, barreling toward the rocks at the entrance of Center Harbor. One summer a few years ago, I stopped three different boats like this from running into the rocks there. Maybe they would have figured it out in time, but it didn't look that way.

Unfortunately it sounds like Chacedawg has a bad location nearby, but it certainly isn't your responsibility to save everyone. Maybe in this case it would be better to point the problem out to MP and ask for a solution.

First I want to say thank-you to Chasedawg, and Chase Lady, for being active about an issue that they see constantly. You have done more then most people would even consider. I hope that you continue to talk with the Marine Patrol about this issue.

I also want to say thank-you for doing your best to try and do something about the situation. I had noticed the bottles. And I don't think that they would have been confused as red markers. So for those that wrote to that fact, please get eye exams, because if your going to mistake a plastic bottle, for a Nav Aid there is an issue.

The Marine Patrol are decent people, I have engaged them many times, with questions, and always get excellent replies. What most people forget is that the Marine Patrol officers are boaters too... They want to see us all enjoy ourselves safely.

There is no doubt that there are many people that don't have a clue on Navigating the lake... it is unfortunate, really... But hey it is what it is...

Sigh...I thought we were doing a good thing that day. Maybe DEJ can help out by asking MP to investigate the area and re-mark the rock hazard.

Could you post the exact wording that you asked the MP?
Thank you.

CateP, I have no problem with the current official markers thus I will not be contacting MP to re-mark the rock hazzard. Evidently you and others do. Since you were the one that donated the bottles Cate I think it best you and Chaselady and Chasedawg contact MP to resolve this to your satisfaction. Let us know how you make out.

I would also like to see the original wording of DEJ's email--the response seemed to refer to a guided setup ("to your point...). Seems disingenuous.

Not only that, but I think the MP is unlikely to officially endorse those kinds of markers in writing. Not sure what exactly what was expected in their reply, but I could have almost written that same reply just based on guessing what they'd put in writing.

We know that he told the MP about “private” markers not being approved because the MP said this: "so you are correct that "private" markers are not approved on navigable waters across the state."

Also we know he said something to make the MP say this: “While the intention is good, to your point, if everyone took it upon themselves to "courtesy mark" what they perceived as a navigational hazard may cause greater confusion to those trying to navigate an already precarious
body of water.

So what is the MP supposed to do?…well……exactly what the person who asked the questions wanted him to do.

When boating into Green's Basin there is a narrow channel. On the right side of the channel there is a rock that can be hit depending on the water level. For years there had been a Clorox bottle there. There wasn't one there this year. I missed seeing it so I was always looking for the rock. I think there are places where the Clorox bottles are beneficial. There aren't any markers in the area so a boater would obviously know to avoid the area near the bottle. The people who live on the lake know the area around them more than anyone else. They are only trying to help. Our season is short and there is nothing worse then having you boat in a marina to be repaired. Before you know it the summer is gone. I have been on this lake my entire life. Back in the day nobody worried about every little thing on the lake.

I think MP pays way more attention to this forum than some others believe they do. The Sgt did not wade into this blindly.

"If there is concern that an area needs to be marked differently than it
presently is we encourage folks to contact us. On occasion we do add
navigational aids or have moved existing ones that may have come off station due to ice flows or tampering. "

This lake is not marked perfectly. It is, however, marked well.

The following statement from the MP response pretty much sums up this whole discussion. The intensions were good by the OP however there is a proper way of doing things.


"private" markers are not approved on navigable
waters across the state. Typically if a "home-made" navigational aid is located
it is removed.

I think you are probably right, I wish they would comment more often. I would love to have them comment on what is a "no wake".

I don't think the bleach bottles do any harm in fact I think they have saved a lot of boaters from hitting rocks. They certainly don't look like the official markers. Where I grew up we had a huge rock that boats used to hit when they came in too close. Then someone put a bleach bottle on it and it helped for years. No one does it now and I bet it gets hit a lot. I supposed it there were thousands of bleach bottles all over the lake, it might create a problem but over all these years that hasn't happened yet. Why not wait until there is a problem?

Is it possible to just wait and see if the MP has a problem with the markings as you have stated above?
You notified them and they gave you a response.
It was very nice of you to not only try to help boaters from getting damage to their boats but to also contact the MP about what you did.

Leave them there until the MP gets a chance to see them.

Thank you

Just a thought.....maybe this issue should be addressed in a different direction. I'm not sure how accurately I'm speaking as I don't know the area being discussed, but I'm looking at this with the lake as a whole.
Regardless,...if the MP identify the 'Area' of hazard, which they have with buoys, why doesn't this get forwarded to the shoulders of the chart makers.

As the charts identify the markers, why would it not identify the approximate location of the hazard and identify the hazard itself.(the simple 'X') I realize they can't locate every hazard, but I have seen some informative posts from 'a' chart maker on here so they are active around the talk of the lakes, so to speak. There have been a few threads regarding areas of concern, so the information is all right here, so my suggestion to try to help is:

Why not start a specific thread for identifying these hazards and the area they are located. Not for the sake of on going conversation, but specifically for the popular chart makers to view and research the claims with a simple drive by or how ever they could confirm the claim of a hazard.

I see that as a win win, 1. As the chart maker has the lake and boating community GIVING them their research we RELY on them for. 2. The updated charts will result in chart sales for the maker, over and over. 3. Boaters have a clear understanding of the hazards, thanks to the experience and (hopefully) cooperation of the chart maker.

Could be a start......

I have deliberately stayed away from this thread until now ....

pcmc - I get your intent, but I think that the "Chart Makers" have already done as detailed a job as can be accomplished given the space and level of detail that can be visually conveyed.

I too do not routinely boat in that area -- but if I found myself in that (or any other unfamiliar area) I would be grabbing my "Chart" and looking for the "dashed lines" as my safe route. The dashed lines I believe are about the best we can hope for from "Chart Makers" and typically solve the ambiguous approaches to markers.

There does come a point when too much detail on the Chart becomes so cumbersome with detail that it begins to be useless (to glance at).

With regard to your comment "Why not start a specific thread for identifying these hazards and the area they are located. Not for the sake of on going conversation, but specifically for the popular chart makers to view and research the claims with a simple drive by or how ever they could confirm the claim of a hazard." --- there is a Thread that Bizer opens each year for just that purpose and is currently active in the Forum .... see http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ad.php?t=18189


--- not touching the rest of this threads debate


.

Need to open the chart though
 

PCMC, Bizer asks for input every year I believe (there is a thread ongoing now http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18189)

The day this thread started I looked at the Bizer chart (via my iPhone app (best 40 bucks I have spent on boating period) and have looked at it a dozen times as this thread unfolded. This area is well marked on the chart with two Black Xs denoting rocks, the two spars and the navigable passage.

I have no issue with a few well placed bleach bottles. A friend places one yearly in Smith Cove, Moultonborough that is invaluable.

Bottom line for me, if I don't know which way to go, I stop and look at my chart, then proceed.

Bizer App is Right On!!
 

Yep. Looks like Bizer did a good job of labeling the area in question. We used the Bizer App for our sailing vacations this year and it was excellent. Very easy to follow the green dotted path when we couldn't figure out what side of the markers we should go on. (if you're not familiar with the sun's position or other directional landmarks, it's easy to get a bit disoriented as to which direction is north and west and east and south.)

From a newbies perspective, the area between Chase and Farm is tricky because the open water is in the rock zone. I could see the natural inclination to go there. Plus, approaching 19 Mile Bay, people are kinda focused on getting there for their gas or shopping. The "Point A to Point B" mentality that we tend to have when driving our cars.

I think the formula for accidents is fairly clear in this case...
Unintuitive water area+Unexperienced boaters=BONK!! DING!! */&%!!@\%!!

Thankyou Phantom, Thankyou VitaBene.
I was not aware of the existing thread by Bizar. I didn't want to beat around bush, but wasn't willing to come across as pointing fingers or attempting to say they aren't up to snuff. That wasn't my thought.
There might be other charts available. I was recommended Bizar before my first boat purchase was hooked to my car, and I love it. I do agree, to much detail can lead to too much congestion on the map.
As mentioned, you do need to open it. :)
I unfortunately do need to stop occasionally if I'm unsure of my surroundings and study where I am so I can avoid trouble. When I do see a floating jug, it's a welcomed sight. Especially knowing it was placed by a Good Samaritan. I thank those willing to help the rest of us.

The rule is realy VERY simple. No matter what direction you are traveling in you pass on the North side and East side of a Black top and pass on the South side and the West side of Red top markers. All you need is a compass no matter which direction you are traveling. The rule is written pertaining ONLY as to which sides to pass. It is irrelevant WHAT the obstruction is or exactly where it is compared to the markers. As long as I know EXACTLY what direction I am traveling (ie compass) I can decide on which side to pass. Has never failed me in almost 30 yrs of boating.

Interesting, I'll have to check out the app. I have a laminated map and GPS, but my GPS seems to fail more often than it works.

The app is awesome and I only use it on a 5S phone- with a 4G enabled iPad, it would be even better!

Bizer app best $34.99 I've spent at the Lake
 

I LOVE THE BIZER APP!! Although I've been going to the lake for 44 years, sometimes when I'm on the water it all starts to look the same. I only get up once a year so it can be tough to remember everything and everyplace. So much beautiful green and if I'm talking to someone on the boat or in a new area, I may loose my bearings a bit. The bizer app shows exactly where I am and a dotted green line shows the best navigational course to keep me out of harms way and from being a bonehead, well sometimes.... :rolleye2:

Totally worth the $$ and I think almost everyone should have it. My dad even used it this summer when we were out on his new boat and he NEVER asks for directions! LOL

Your Dad is right. We may need direction but it's an unwritten man rule to never ask for them.:)
Assembly instructions...let's not even go there.lol.

First, the Bizer app is good, but would be even better if it was also available for Android. iPhone is good, but there are a LOT of Androids out there too!

With this said, I know for paper charts, Bizer doesn't include all known hazards as it would make the paper charts too buzy. But with the ability to zoom in, and provide less detail when zooming out, it would be easy for the electronic versions of the charts to include much more data (and therefore more hazards) than the paper charts. It would be nice to see Bizer (and other charts) use this data and present it. After all, this is 2014, so we should no longer assume that a paper chart and an electronic one should be equal.

Informal markers can be helpful
 

I am very familiar with the area between Chases and Farm Islands. The plastic bottles that appeared recently do not interfere with navigation of the safe areas -- they only interfere if you want to boat over rocks.

Regarding the Marine Patrol response: this is exactly what they have to say. They won't sanction informal markers. But I know for a fact that the Marine Patrol goes through that area frequently, yet they have not removed the bottles. What does that tell you?

They don't want to hit the rocks?:)

Garmin or Magellin app?
 

I was sailing off the coast of Newport last Sunday. My host has an app in his smartphone that is connected to his chart plotter. The app display the map and other info from his plotter. He has access wherever he happens to be on the schooner. Even at home!

Newport was very busy Sunday. I am amaze how well all boats get along and how folks share the dock space. Put midsummer Winni to shame. :(

Sorry Aqua but there are several "Ambiguous" locations around the Lake where just having a Compass will fail you and checking on the Chart will save you. Everyone should know that the Cardinal System is NOT flawless.

Depending on direction you approach there is a black Top off Treasure Isl that can confuse,

The one I love most is at FL#30 when approaching from the (Alton side) there are TWO Black Tops that greet you (one associated with the FL another about 300 yards to the North)! albeit the one on the Northern side is "Paired" with a Red Top--- Point is -- if one is not intimately familiar then you would steer incorrectly for the proper path is to keep FL#30 to your port side and the other Black Top to Starboard (actually splitting between two Black Tops) which is counter intuitive.

There are a few others but I think you get the point -- a Compass goes in hand with a CHART.




.

And good luck if you happen to be using a chart with errors on it! (see the review of a different chart that we have discussed on this forum in the past).

Phantom, I totally disagree with this statement, I have been on the lake now for over 25 years. I have never found a spot on the lake where the compass and an understanding of the markers would have failed me.

I have been to several areas where trying to go fast and not heading the markers and verifying your orientation with a compass would fail you for sure.

But that is not the same as your statement.

Boaters need to be educated on how to use a compass, and navigate with regards to the orientation to the marker.....

No chart is really needed... A chart makes it easier..... A chart makes it possible to navigate unfamiliar areas a bit faster.... but a chart will not save you... anymore then a compass and understanding of the AtoN will......

I also disagree with the statement that GPS devices are the save all either. Yep they are nice and look pretty, but I bet many boaters still get into trouble.... yep you maybe able to zoom in etc. but common people, that doesn't make it safer.

REALLY LEARN TO NAVIGATE.... UNDERSTAND THE MARKERS.... AND DON"T BE AFRAID TO SLOW DOWN, and understand your bearings......

Anyways I am going to get off my soap box..... I have noticed that many people in this argument are also the people that think anything less then a 24' boat is unsafe......

What makes a successful captain, is experience, constant learning, and being able to get a firm grasp of how the Aides (markers, compass, GPS, depth finder, etc.) will make your life easier. They don't do the job for you.....

ok now I am serious... I am stepping off the soap box and kicking it aside.