HB847 Passed the Senate
 

HB847 Passed the Senate

Yea:14

Nay:10



Today is Yogi Berra's 88th birthday. Remember what he said.... "It aint over til its over"

You're right
 

Yogi is right, it ain't over :)

The margin of approval, if you are correct is not enough to override a gubernatorial veto.

I hope it makes a difference.
 

Well congratulations to everyone that worked to get this bill together. I hope it makes a difference, and everyone feels safer. Still don't agree with it, but it is what it is, and won't change the way my family boats. We keep our boat around 30 to save gas anyway.

Okay -- (serious quesion) Now that it has passed & I suspect the Govenor will sign ........................ When does this go into affect ???

Welcome to the NEW New Hampshirechussetts.A lot more great bills to follow.Next up,lets make sure those bikers start wearing helmets.

The lake will become the next Quabin Reservoir.

Interesting
 

At least to me...in the Concord Monitor, it quotes two Dems as being opposed to HB847, D'Allesandro and Letourneu.
http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/p...PAGE/805160385

According to the bill, January 1, 2009. Here's a link to the bill text; http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legi...08/HB0847.html.

I think that it is very sad that people have been so quick to enact a law that has the sole purpose of trying to remove a certain type of boat off the lake. When that law does not work they will try and put another law on the books and another. It makes me sick to my stomach really. By the way my boat puts out a MUCH larger wake at 45 then it does at 65. Evenstar understandably will still not feel comfortable going across the broads, people will still violate the 150 foot rule, people will still not boat safely. So what law is next guys? :(

Effective dates and a prima facie primer....
 

Baja is correct, the bill will not be in effect until January 1, 2009 and sunsets (expires) January 1, 2011. It will not be in effect for this upcoming boating season.

Also of interest is that the limits imposed are of prima facie limits, not absolute limits. That is a very signigfcant legal difference.

In a nut shell, that means that if you are going in excess of 25/45 mph you are not by default in violation of the RSA, as some have led everyone to believe. The State must show that even given the 25/45 limit, the speed that you were observed at was not reasonable given the conditions at the time observed. If the limits imposed had used the absolute standard, as are terrestial speed limits are in the State of Maine, all the State would need to show for a conviction is any speed over the posted limit.

Bottom line? There is an extreme mount of leeway in the RSA as passed by the House & Senate, as some folks will quickly figure out next boating season.

As always if you would like further information on the difference between prima-facie and absolute limitsor want to discuss other aspects of this particular legislation, please feel free to PM me anytime.

Skip :)

When is the Govenor review
 

When is the Govenor reviewing the bill to pass or veto?

Also, is there a role call so I know how the person who represents me voted?

Whoa wait a minute here. This is pretty important. Thank you Skip for posting this. Now, could you explain this again as I am still digesting it. Am I reading this correctly, could a GFB still hit 70mph across the broads on a tuesday when there is no traffic and NOT be in violation of the law?

That's how I read it as well. Gee, doesn't that sound an awful lot like reckless driving which is already covered?

It appears there was a role call, but I can't find it on the site yet.

Prima facie....
 

Ah, you get it Grasshopper!

It is exactly the same principle (and verbiage) that is used to define most of the road speed limits in New Hampshire. That is why you see that under normal driving conditions you must be going anywhere from at least ten to fifteen miles an hour over the posted speed limit to receive a summons in New Hampshire.

Be forewarned however, many departments will stop you at excess speeds lower than that, and they usually have articulable suspicion to do so, but in most cases you receive a warning.

Absolute speed limits by definition on our State's 65 MPH highways and school zones are notable exceptions to the prima facie rule.

Prima facie limits are much more liberal in interpretation than absolute limits.

You give an excellent example. You are out on the Broads on a clear and calm unlimited visibility day and its just you and a distant NHMP boat. If you can articulate in Court that the spped you are suggesting, 70 MPH, was reasonable and prudent given the conditions of the day than you, my friend, have just learned what an affirmative defense is!

By the way, there is another side to these limits. Just because the limit is 25/45 does not mean that you can always approach these limits without due regard.

Lets say its a foggy limited visibility day, and you are plying along at 45 MPH because that's the limit. NHMP can still cite you for unreasonable speed if they can articulate to the Court that given the conditions present that speed was unreasonable at that given time.

So it does cut both ways....

While I understand the angst of folks on both sides of the issue, I truly beleive that this RSA as passed is no where as onerous as some may believe. The bottom line for probably 99% of the folks that are out there boating is that as long as they use common sense and obey all other current safety regulations, you will still be able to travel at the speeds you have been used to for years.

In the end except for a few rare occasions I don't expect to see anything different out on the Lake. The economy and price of fuel will be the determining factor on boating conditions for the foreseeable future...when folks really decipher this particular legislation they will find that its biggest impact will be on one's particular emotions, not actions.

Anyway, that's my $.02! :liplick:

I will accept the loss with handshake and a good job to my opponents! It was a good fight, and they won... Perhaps all of the acrimony will dissipate now.

Who knows what will happen & how the political winds will blow in the 3 years between now and the sunset clause! We will have to wait and see...


Woodsy

Here's WMUR's article.I had thought I heard Lynch was leaning towards a veto on this bill but this piece says the opposite.


Boat Speed Limits Approved For Winnipesaukee

POSTED: 7:22 am EDT May 16, 2008
UPDATED: 7:34 am EDT May 16, 2008


CONCORD, N.H. -- It looks like some boaters will have to slow down on Lake Winnipesaukee next summer.

The Senate passed trial speed limits on Thursday for the state's biggest lake and the plan is on its way to Gov. John Lynch's desk. He has said he will sign it.

The speed limits would go into effect on Jan. 1.

Boat speed limits have been debated for years. The plan that has been approved differs from past plans because it applies only to Winnipesaukee and would go off the books in two years. The bill sets speed limits at 45 miles per hour during the day and 25 miles per hour at night.

Skip,

Did it pass as is or is it likely to have some amendments attached to it?

What is the process from here?

So will jet skis and cabin cruisers next to be banned from the lake?

I am so excited to fire up my twin engine speed boat and cruise the lake this year as well as next year. If the Governor signs the bill, it will still be business as usual. The noise will not go away and the speed will not go away. Winnfarts hase accomplished nothing.

There was nothing fast about the way that this bill has progressed toward being a law. If you don't remember, it was delayed by the House Transportation Committee in last March, so that the Marine Patrol could do a Speed Study on the lake.

And it is your opinion that the "sole purpose" of this law is to "remove a certain type of boat off the lake." That is not why I supported it.

How can you state with such certaintly that I will "not feel comfortable going across the Broads?" I will not even know that myself until after the law is enacted and then I will let you know how safe I feel crossing the Broads.

No more ammendments....
 

It passed as is....the Governor can sign it, veto it or allow it without his signature. However, he cannot make any changes or ammendments to it.

As was discussed earlier, the only way it could be defeated is if the Governor chose to veto it and there is not enough votes to override, or if the Governor failed to act on it after the House was out of session it would fail in what is known as a "pocket veto".

However, news sources covering the story today say the Governor intends to sign the bill when it reaches his desk.

Thanks Skip for that clarification... It's good to know how it is "really" going to work once it hits the books.

Aside from all the banter - I still find it a dark day when laws are passed / enacted based on opinion and speculation vs. cold hard facts... But - whatever, I am just looking forward to a great summer in our new boat!!!

Be safe out there everyone - I hope WE all have an enjoyable summer - see you out on the water!!! :cool:

Jet skis will be banned via banning 2-strokes. Once they figure out that the newer jet skis have 4-stroke engines, they will ban all watercraft that seats less than 4 people.
Cruisers will be banned via some kind of wake limit law.

Or something like that.

Live Free Or Die, Not Any More
 

I guess the old saying is going out the window

LIVE FREE OR DIE, perhaps NH should change the license plates and add more fees.

Is this happening because all us MAssholes are migrating North?:laugh:

Two Democrats voted no, Gottesman and D'Allesandro

Two Republicans voted yes, Kenney and O'Dell

So it was not as partisan as some predicted.

Some Senators wanted to table it and add an amendment for an exception in the broads. However the vote went against them 13 to 11. Very close.

Prima facie evidence
 

Wikipedia describes Prima facie as "In common law jurisdictions, prima facie denotes evidence that (unless rebutted) would be sufficient to prove a particular proposition or fact."

The text of the HB847 is: Where no hazard exists that requires lower speed for compliance with subparagraph (a), the speed of any vessel in excess of the limit specified in this subparagraph shall be prima facie evidence that the speed is not reasonable or prudent and that it is unlawful: (1) 25 miles per hour during the period from 1/2 hour after sunset to 1/2 hour before sunrise; and (2) 45 miles per hour at any other time.

I'm not a lawyer, but the use of prima facie in the law seems to imply that going over 45 is sufficient to prove that the speed was not reasonable or prudent. Maybe case law has watered down the meaning?

We all want reasonable and prudent speed. That was never the issue.

Prima facie versus absolute....
 

Good points & a very good question.

The key words are "unless rebutted".

With prima facie limits, you have the right to rebut the State's charge and offer a defense to the limit imposed.

Unlike an "absolute" limit, that dictates that constitutional issues aside, there is no rebuttal and that any speed in excess of the posted speed is grounds for guilt.

The law could have been written in either language, but it was written as a prima facie limit that gives the defendant the right to rebuttal.

However, most folks are not aware of the difference and plea guilty or nolo (contendre) to the charge assuming that all speed limits in New Hampshire are absolute.

Hopefully I have made some of the folks out here aware that there is a significant difference and that a speed above 25/45 does not automatically imply you will be found guilty of speeding.

Again, it all comes down to using a ton of common sense and always being aware of and obeying all other applicable safety regulations while you boat (or drive your car). ;)

Skip

And if you do happen to get a speeding ticket (on the lake especially!), fight it in court!

Here it is
 

Gov says he will sign the bill:

http://wbztv.com/local/newhampshire/....2.725701.html

Excuse me: but what crap

Thanks Skip. And every dark cloud has a silver lining....
 

Thanks once again to Skip for another one of his very excellent contributions to our forum community. A concise, non-partisan explanation. You "rock" Skip :).

Now for the Silver Lining: My wife has balked at spending the money for a good GPS or chartploter. Well, with speed limits in place I'm going to need an accurate way to measure the speed of our boat. That's a GPS or chartplotter. No excuse now honey :laugh: were going to start shopping.

Be sure to practice watching those GPS units at night this season to maintain an appropriate ... 'er ... I mean legal speed for 2009. Don't take your eyes away from the water too long while reading the small speed numbers on your GPS ;).

Believe it or not, I ran into Boston Mayor Tom Menino early this morning and I asked him if he had an "in" with Governor Lynch.... It was a long shot but I was thinking he might get the word "veto" to the NH Gov. He couldn't help.

Happy and safe boating to all.

Interesting how many opponents didn't understand until today what the law says and means. Skip has posted this before. The proponents on this forum have pointed out many times that boats will be able to go faster that the numbers and "get away with it". If you want to open it up on the broads when nobody is around, I don't care. And I doubt the Marine Patrol will either. Just one more thing we have been saying, but nobody was listening.

BI where were you last night?

What a shame. The crazy thing is that i could probably count in my head the number of "go fast boats" on winnipesaukee.

Wait....isn't that the opponents arguement from the start? Why did we need a law again?

Your posts are a joke pure and simple.You are such a hypocrite when you say"If you want to open it up on the broads when nobody is around, I don't care".That's exactly what the opponents argument has been right along and you have been totally against it.There are plenty of areas that higher speed than 45 is appropriate and others that are not.That's why we have reasonable and prudent definitions already in place and a why a 45 mph limit lakewide does not make sense.Thanks for pointing that out.

Certain Kayakers might mind Island Lover.....

As has been said before this won't affect me one bit as my bow-rider struggles to hit 50. It's just a shame that so much effort went into a law that will not have any real impact on safety. Here's to another summer boating alongside captain clueless and his posse. If anything at least safe boating certificates are mandatory for all now. Hopefully MP will be able to clamp down on that now. Have a safe summer.

I just did a search of all my posts looking for the word broads. This is what I posted on 2/6/6. And that is the only time I posted about the broads. You people were not listening!

Every now and then somebody will open it up on the broads... so what!

Congratulations on winning a hard fought fight. Let's see if this has any effect and how everything looks two years from now.

Remember, the truly wonderful thing about American democracy, elections are never more than two years away. Any mistake can be fixed.

For 2009, I'm predicting a 0% increase in speed related accidents....up from 0% over the past 100 years.

Please feel free to respond with incidents not related to alcohol.

Before we start rewriting history, try reading these.


http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...oads#post62708

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...oads#post62946

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...oads#post67878

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...oads#post68378



IL - I am doing communications for an expedition crossing Greenland, had to stick by the electronics.