Braun Bay ???
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I don't know about all of you but one of my favorite things to do in the summer is Rafting at Braun Bay... Such a good group of people that you get to meet and just enjoy what the lake is meant for. Given there is always the person who has had too much, or the boat that thinks everyone in the bay wants to hear hip hop music, but overall it is one of my favorite activities. Lately however I have been pretty upset with the marine patrol. As an example I was over in Braun Bay on the 4th having an absolute GREAT time.. I was not rafted to anyone and was the 5th boat there. I made sure we were not between the markers and the shore....... Anyway as the day goes on the place fills up. A few people are tied together more then 2 boats but for the majority everyone is only tied up 2 by 2. The MP cowboys come in. 2 boats. The start in the front and start clearing people out and citing them. Apparently you can not be rafted with 50 feet of anyone else or 75 feet from shore. If you are familiar with this particular bay you would fit perhaps 10 boats in there if you had to be 50 feet from everyone. I asked if I was there first isn't it the responsibility of those arriving after me to be shore to be 50 feet away? I was told I have to tell others to stay away????? Pretty much it ruined everyones afternoon. They were not professional and down right rude to people. At one point I was helping shuttle people out of the bay between the boats (dragging them out by hand so people don't hit their engines on anchor lines) and they yelled at me because I was apparently in their path. Unfortunately I think this is just a glimpse of things to come.
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I am a fan of the Marine Patrol and I think Tim Dunleavy does an awesome job. However, I wonder if there isn't better things they could be doing on the 4th of July weekend???? I mean seriously there are so many boater underway that could be causing real danger to themselves and others.
The way I see it though MP will be extremely busy this summer enforcing a new law.:rolleye2: So me thinks the sign of things to come is actually not Braun Bay enforcement. ;) |
There are SOME boaters the MPs can't overlook...
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You can't have fun anymore...
I don't raft in Braun Bay, I prefer to cruise around the lake. And I too think the Marine Patrol does a great job. But I'm all for people getting together and having some clean fun. The problem these days if anyone sees that you ARE having some fun, they have to put a stop to it!
I agree, the Marine patrol should be out reeling in boaters and jet-skiers who violate and don't know the rules of the waterway. Instead, they hang like Piranahs (hope I spelled that right?) outside Braun Bay ticketing folks for pretty much nothing more than having good time on the lake. Can't wait for the lake to thaw out.... |
I agree with you both, to a point. I think the Marine Patrol are great when they are realistic. Making sure the waterways are safe should be their priority. However I feel politics have played too much of role. I think many MP's especially the veterans are there to make sure safety is being adhered to however the younger guys, trying prove themselves, have a much different thought process. They are there to make a quota. I am not going to name names but a reliable source explained to me that the marine patrol is the only division in the state of NH that has to explain why they "did not" issue a citation. I do not know if that is for all Marine Patrol officers or just the younger guys. But frankly it shows that their mission isn't safety but financial.
I also am appaled that they are not allowed to tow. In my younger years I was out in the broads jumping waves in a 13ft whaler with a 25 hp. I was young and didn't know better..... The engine actually cracked off the back and was hanging by battery cords. I was able to push the engine back in the boat. However a MP comes up to me to see what the story was. I ask for a tow to Trexlers, about 1/2 mile away. He says he isn't allowed to??? so much for helping........ A little off topic but just trying to make a point.. I think there are many safety issues out there that need enforcement not breaking up peoples clean fun. |
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http://boat-ed.com/nh/handbook/boating_info.htm#rafting And if rafting is something you like to do, that should make you search more deeply to find this (scroll down to Winnipesaukee, Lake): http://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/s...tricted.html#W It's a no-rafting zone. Complain about it, petition the legislature or the Department of Safety. (It doesn't bother me personally, as I don't spend any time in there, stationary or in motion.) But if you're ignoring the rule of the waterway, then why shouldn't Marine Patrol break up the illegal raft? |
I have always wondered how, legally, a place can be defined as " No Rafting". Is'nt one of our constitutional rights "fredom to assemble"? Why, because we are in a boat, can we be prevented to assemble?
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<shaking my head>
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My Winni-loving co-workers couldn't figure out if this thread was really really slow on the uptake, or (with several inches of new snow on the ground) the most proactive start we've seen to the annual MP gripe-fest. :) It's a designated "no rafting" zone. It's not rocket science, folks... |
Fill in the Witches - redux
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Remember a law can be constitutional and be silly and unfair. Please use PART Saf-C 407 RAFTING RULES in this link for your guidelines on rafting; http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rules/saf-c400.html This an adminstrative rule and it is more strict than the statelaw RSA270:42-46 An interesting part of the law is: A person shall be guilty of a violation if he: ...Refuses to cooperate with a law enforcement officer in the determination of compliance... |
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Seriously though? Look I don't really spend any time in Braun Bay. Once a season, if that. The original post an subsequent reply on my part is pointed. Could the Marine Patrol be a bit more courteous in the situation as described? YES! SHOULD the Marine Patrol, who's resources are stretched wafer thin as it is, be out enforcing laws that ACTUALLY endanger the greater boating public (I.E. moving violations). YES!! Pretty simple |
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And there was very little traffic on the lake this Fourth of July, compared to previous years. So, yes - I think the Marine Patrol SHOULD have broken it up. Could they have been courteous? I wasn't there. Perhaps the rudeness was warranted. Perhaps it was uncalled-for and the officers were simply arrogant. Perhaps they were not as rude as the OP makes it seem. But they could also have written citations for everyone there, and that would have taken much more time. So I think they balanced their responsibilities well. |
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I think NO they were NOT balancing their responsibilities based on the date given and the amount of MOVING violations I see during that time. AND number two I would have no reason to disagree with the original post from OCDACTIVE based on what I feel was a very fair written well thought out post. This individual does not seem to be posting with some sort of agenda. So why would we assume otherwise. Of course you and I are only giving our opinions, correct? |
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Good conversation and good opinions here. I am not going to go down the road of Marine Patrol bashing, rights being stomped on, etc. I have had many good dealings with marine patrol as well. This time around there were four officers. 3 of which were very professional and informative. One however was very very rude and unprofessional. I honestly have never seen anything like it. Unprovoked as well.
The picture does show that "everyone" was apparently in violation from the 25 foot law someone said? They told us 50?? Maybe someone could clairify? Also no one has addressed the initial question of: If I am there first and someone anchors closer then 25 or 50 feet who is to blame? Do I raise anchor and have to leave.? Also, the question of a No Rafting zone. I asked the marine patrol officers about this because if you look at the chart it appears the whole left side of the bay is no rafting. If you have been in there in the past two years there are bouys set up approx. 50 feet off the shoreline. They said the bouys towards shore is the NRZ. I was told you are legally allowed to be there from the bouys out. Now I am not trying to get people going with "the law is this or that". I am just saying what I heard. It also seems to make sense. Otherwise why would they have put the bouys "markers" there in the first place? |
There are 2 separate issues. The first is that Braun Bay is a no-rafting zone between the mooring balls and the shore. I couldn't see the balls in that picture, but I believe that you were all outside of the balls.
The other issue is one of rafting in general. A raft must be no more than 2 boats, and at least 50 feet from another raft. A single boat must be 50 feet from a raft, and 25 feet from another single boat. This applies anywhere on the New Hampshire waterways, whether in a no-rafting zone or not. According to the regulations, the onus is on the approaching boat to maintain the required distance from other boats. However, when the MP arrives, how are they to know which boat arrived first? It is probably in your best interest to inform approaching boats of the rules. If they don't comply, it becomes your choice whether to leave or to stay and plead your case to MP when and if they arrive. |
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While I totally understand the regulation about the 25 / 50 ft distance, Could you imagine what would happen if people tried to actually keep others that far away on a holiday weekend in braun bay?? I think in theory it is the "right thing to do" but it isn't realistic. Also, from a personal standpoint, after getting the family ready, shopping for food, preparing everything for a day in Braun Bay, loading up the boat, leaving early to get a good spot etc etc... I think my wife and passengers would be a bit upset with me if at 945am when the bay starts to fill up I say "sorry guys, that person is too close, we better leave" LOL... Just my 2 cents.. I don't think it is a realistic option. |
Realistic option or un-realistic option, as someone put, if your breaking the LAW your breaking the law period. So if your asked to move by marine patrol , no matter how you look at the situation you DO NOT have the right to do it LEGALLY. So weather there making you move or stopping someone for breaking the 150' rule, Marine Patrol is doing thier job. CUDO.s to Marine Patrol.
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Wow
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Good conversation good opinions and a valid question since there is some confusion to the situation as to where specifically you can raft and where you can't. I think many of these threads do serve a purpose. I received some clairfication hopefully others did as well. |
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Sorry M/V but unless the law changed yesterday, this is 100% not true. You only have to follow the no rafting zone rules while you are in a no rafting zone. A lot of people want the rules applied lake wide or even state wide, but they are not. There are legal rafts of 10+ boats on a regular basis in non-restricted areas. |
BTW we have this rafting discussion on a fairly regular basis, I have all the rules bookmarked:
PART Saf-C 407 RAFTING RULES (a) In addition to and in conjunction with the requirements of RSA 270:44, no person, except as otherwise provided herein, shall, in a prohibited location or at a prohibited time: (1) Form or allow a boat which he or she is operating or in charge of to be a member of a raft consisting of 3 or more boats; a. Less than 150 feet from shore; or (3) Anchor a single boat and cause it to remain stationary upon the waters of a lake or pond other than momentarily if any part of such boat is: a. Less than 150 feet from shore; or Here are the prohibited locations in Braun Bay: ... (4) Braun Bay, within 300 feet of both fish and game property lines, to be delineated by marine patrol with orange mooring balls; (5) Braun Bay, at a distance less than 75 feet from shore, to be delineated by marine patrol with orange mooring balls; ... |
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Wow great feedback.. Only question I have is "fish and game property lines" what are these? and are there any? I only know of the orange mooring balls for the 75 feet from shore. |
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The world isn't always black and white. Discussions like this is where ideas and points of view are discussed to enlighten people as to the particulars of a situation. I have personally learned a lot from this conversation as I hope others have as well. Also there seems to be some confusion as to how the law is supposed to be adhered to and enforced. Even what the MP's said that day is different then what I have read here. So I am not to quick to hand out the "Kudos" |
NWZs get created when somoene complains about the rafting near them and the problems that come with large groups of partiers. As was stated in the original post a few bad apples spoil it for the bunch and such is the case in Braun Bay and other NWZs. So if there is a sudden interest in cracking down on activities in Braun Bay then I imagine someone called and complained that things were getting out of hand again. I have seen this played out on other lakes in the country so we are not alone with this problem.
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When we hang out in Braun Bay, we arrive early, have fun playing frisbee and such when there's space, and leave when it gets crowded. I take digital photos of the open space on both sides of my boat after we get settled in. I have never had to show the photos to MP, but figure it'll help my arguement that I was there first by having them. We also tend to anchor less than 20 feet from a mooring ball so that anyone that anchors on the ball side of us is clearly in violation, regardless of which side of the ball they are on. We also typically anchor with the bow over muck and the stern over sand. The muck makes people less likely to anchor in front of us, blocking our exit.
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Very well said.. I also think from a safety perspective which has not been discussed yet. On this particular holiday weekend, if you have been there you know how congested it gets. The reason I get there early not only is for a good spot but because I know that it will fill up VERY fast. The safety aspect is when it is PACKED as you see in the picture it is difficult, not impossible, but difficult to get a boat out in case of an emergency. So I understand the need for a statute but not the actions of these officers on this particular day.
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I think this law is unfair and enforcement is uneven but the law does exist. Perhaps some effort should be made to modify it, but in practice once the government gets controls of something it does not like to let go. On the enforcement, this is pretty typical police behavior. Just like speeding, most times you can stretch the rules and just behave in a responsible and safe manner and no one will bother you. But once in a while they have to have a crack-down and enforce the letter of the law. I don't know if this is driven by complaints, or they just feel that it's time. When they are in this mode, they are usually all business, just get out of their way. |
[QUOTE=Dave R;89420]I take digital photos of the open space on both sides of my boat after we get settled in. I have never had to show the photos to MP, but figure it'll help my arguement that I was there first by having them. QUOTE]
GREAT IDEA!!!! best thought yet on this thread.. thank you.. |
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Good neighbors...
We live nine houses down from the state land in Braun Bay. The crowds are in the upper bay from 10 AM till around 5PM two days a week, 10 weeks a year. 'Not that great an imposition. On the Summer weekends we do chores
and own the bay the rest of the year. The interesting thing is how clean the bay is. With all of the boaters anchored for the day there is VERY little trash in the water. (The occasional 12 pack of bud lite excepted) I hunt the Kona land and there is very little sign of human activity around. Even Human waste. Remarkable. I guess that the Great Spirit smiles on us because we know how to share. Misty Blue. |
Great post.. Thank you for chimming in. Perhaps you can help us being a local to that particular bay. Years ago it was not a No Rafting Zone. I have charts I believe either from the late 80's or early 90's that does not have the red lines on it. Do you know why or if there was a movement by land owners in that bay to make it a NRZ or was it someone else? Just wondering.
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Try to remember....
The rafting in Braun Bay developed over many years. In the 60s, as I recall there was very little activity up there. The locals went up there to play and check out the swamp.
In the 70s a few people came and anchored. Sort of like a little secluded spot. In the 80s things started to pick up and we started to see rafts. By the 90s there were major rafts and maybe 100 to 120 boats on a weekend day. This is where, again if I recall, things got sort of wierd. People who had cottages in the head of the bay and maybe some others complained to the state and the NHMP sort of invented an new thing the "rafting zone". They put up floats to limit the extent of where the rafters could anchor. The complaints continued and there was a heated public meeting held by the state and the "no rafting zone" began. I think that it was around 96 or 97. My take is that while we may have a bit fewer boats up there they are spread out farther. Hope this helps. Misty Blue. |
I haven't anchored in Braun for years.. The doo gooders have ruined the experience :rolleye2:
Used to be volleyball, balloon launchers, tiki bar boats selling food and drinks..Great times there years ago. Now its just a place to get hassled by the man ! |
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I have been on the lake my all 30 years of my life and I have never seen a MP officer so unprofessional. |
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I remember exactly where you were. You were not within the markers and since all the smaller boats tied to you so they didn't have to throw anchors they targeted you. In my story "you" were there one he was yelling at for no reason what so ever. You were being very polite and accomodating. What an absolute jerk. My father in law was with us and he is an local police officer. He said that the other MP's with this loud mouth were looking embarressed to be with him. Talk about being on a power trip huh? |
Video testimony
Might I suggest that if some like that were to happen again to you pull out your cell phone and make it obvious that you are video taping him while questioning his motives and attitude? I bet his attitude would be adjusted rather quickly.
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Too Bad
Exactly why I dont go there anymore.. The lake is getting smaller and smaller every year with fewer and fewer places to go and relax, have a swim etc.
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MP is a necessary component. Unfortunately they seem to have gotten abit to big for their birches the last few years, and with this years ridiculous speed limit law it will be interesting (my boat only does 42 top end so problem from me). Years ago, I helped pull a MP out of the shallows I used to know the guy by name-- now years later- they stop me on an occasion.
Except for an occasional weekend I only go to the few sandbar(s) during the week days, I try and schedule family and friends at the end of the week, less hassle on the lake in general from Marine Patrol and boats in general. If you can and have the time try a weekday = less crowds & less hassle. |
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I will look for your new boat when im there this year. My boat is the gray and blue air nautique always there full of people. I take the black sea ray once or twice a year when I have too many people for the ski boat. |
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Braun Bay
Braun Bay was one of the great experience on the lake. My children knew it well. I don't go any more.
I was hassled by the MP twice. Both times, I was the first on the spot. Then others will come up under 50 feet and anchor. I will protect but I'm not the type to fight. When the MP shows up, they will pick on me because I am the bigger boat. They will ask me to leave and ignore the other boats. It is not fair. I'm not going to stick around and find out what will happen. |
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