Did I miss a memo with the price of boats?
 

I must have missed something..or was late for class...what happened to the price of boats in the past decade?

Moving back to NH in a few months from 4+ years in FL. Getting a boat and getting back on Winni is one of our top 5 things to do. But looking at the price of new and used boats compared to when I last bought one...well I am astounded.

To clarify, I am 40 and have been boating since I was in diapers. I have owned many bowriders with my last purchase for a new one was in 1999 for an 18' Maxum with Trailder for $15,000. Sold & brokered it with Meredith Marine back in 07/08 for about $7000, when it was about 7-8 years old. This was the going retail rate for a boat back then.

So nothing special about the boat. Not top of the line, just a good mid range craft. So why are similar 18' models that are about 7-8 years old now selling for $15,000? Something new and comparable is well over $30k. :eek:

What lesson did I miss in not buying a boat in the past 6-7 years? It is almost as if I kepy my 1999 Maxum it would still be worth 6k today!

Supply and demand. A bad economy hits boat builders early and hard, so they took a severe beating in the last decade and there were fewer builders making fewer boats. With the economy now getting better, people are competing to buy limited numbers of boats, driving the prices up.

I was shocked - a couple years back I was able to sell my 24ft crownline for almost as much as I paid new (I had it for 3 years but didn't put many hours on it).

Tractor prices are even worse than boat prices. To heck with "off the lot depreciation." I've made money re-selling tractors I purchased brand new!!

Seriously, a boat is a luxury item. I see what you mean with a used car connection. The price of used cars has gone up with the bad economy, I get that. But cars are (arguably) a very real necessity. A boat is not and I cannot see the justification.

For a bit of fun (and shock!), last year I went on the Four Winns website and built a boat that pretty much matches the one I bought in 2002. The retail price had literally doubled, and then some!

Certainly gives added incentive to continue to take care of the one I have!

Don't forget that there was a huge shortage of used cars after they did the "cash for clunkers" or whatever they called it.
And most cars you buy now, you can make them last for ten or more years, creating another shortage of used vehicles.

Maybe there's a shortage of used boats because of the economy, people just are keeping that they have, instead of paying the huge prices they want for newer ones now.

Align with a reputable marina and buy used...
 

The price of a new boat is outrageous, but there are some very good deals to be had on used boats. Because they are so expensive new, many folks take out long-term loans, (e.g., 10 years :eek:), and then get a couple years into it and either their personal/family situation has changed or they think, "what the heck am I doing paying for a boat over 10 years", and they dump it.

When we were in the market for a boat last year, we first decided on our needs and then aligned with a reputable marina on the lake to help us find what we wanted within our budget. It took a number of months to find the right used boat, but it ended up being a great decision.

Good luck.

MM

I don't think you would be too far off. I sold my 86 Chris 21' BR in early summer for 4K. The thing about boats is that the power package is where a lot of the value is in used boats. I know had my boat not sold as a whole, the parts were worth likely a bit more.

Good luck with your shopping. I have to add, that I would look for a bit more hull length and decent deadrise for Winni. Any other lake and 18' would be fine, most times.

Hello, inflation!

Inflation over the last 10 years has avereged less than 2.5% per year. That makes a $15000 boat in 1999 a <$22,000 boat in 2014, not $30,000.

I suspect some of the price increase may be due to economy of scale too. When you make fewer boats, it costs more to make each boat (on a per-boat basis).

While we are speculating...

Could the cost of potential liability claims be greater now than in the past?

It's about the financing
 

I was looking at some boats this summer and noticed that the monthly payment estimates were all based on 5.5% over 20 years. With that kind of financing, you can get into a 50k boat for less than the payment on a Civic.

I look at it like college tuition. There's no way it's worth, 60k/year, but with tax breaks/credits and long-term debt, they can charge 60k because people can afford it.

Cash for Clunkers, raised pre-owned car $$
Thanks Barry

This is why:

http://www.bloomberg.com/chart/iKHU4y4eUfWk

Basically, the manufacturers are selling a fraction of the units they used to and need to cover their overhead. I realize some of the overhead has been eliminated but they still need a higher price per unit to make it work.

I guess my theory about economy of scale was correct.

That is not all that has changed
 

Yes, prices are substantially higher and the used boat market is very tight.

But, here is what else has changed: The lake is a lot busier and the wakes are substantial.

I would not feel comfortable in any boat under 24 feet in most areas of the lake. Yes there are some weekdays, and yes there are some areas, where 18 feet of boat will be just fine. But as a family all purpose boat bigger is better.

I know that is not why you wrote, but it is the first thing that I thought of when you mentioned an 18 foot boat.

not really
 

I live on an island all summer long and have an 18' bow rider that I use almost exclusively and never had a problem. Telling everyone to get 24 footers is going to make things worse! :eek:

Guess it depends on which island
 

When I had my 19 ft Sunbird with a 135 Optimax, even though the boat was designed to be used on the ocean (deep vee, transom requiring an extended shaft motor), there were times where even Alton Bay was tough, and I certainly would not want to venture past Little Mark and head out to the broads side of Rattlesnake or even to the north side of Sleepers.

I have a 25 ft bowrider now and am much more comfortable in that than I was in the 19 ft. That being said, there is weather where I would not want to go out in any boat.

Those of us on the south side of the lake can hate the west or northwest winds that can churn up the broads into something resembling the ocean, whereas other areas of the lake may not have quite the same effect by the same winds.

I guess, bottom line, get what you, and your family, will be most comfortable in. :rolleye2:

It's much worse than the ocean. You rarely see steep chop like we get on Winnipesaukee, on the ocean.

And even better yet... I find that the 26 foot flavor of SeaRay Sundeck is shorter than the 24 foot one I currently have... Guess there has been size deflation in the past 9 years. 100k+... Guess I've had my last new boat.

Boat length now includes swim platform...
 

Jazzman brings up a key point. Boat length used to be water-line only. So, if you bought a 25 foot boat with a swim platform, you had 25 feet of boat and maybe another 2 feet of swim platform, for 27 feet overall. But, that boat would have been marketed as a 25 footer. In today's market, that model is marketed as a 27 footer, when it is really only 25 feet of water-line.

Just something to keep in mind when shopping...

MM

Ya know folks there is a very logical explanation for this that everyone doesn't seem to be aware of.

The reason why boats are so expensive can be summed up in 4 basic areas.

1: The cost of fiberglass manufacturing is in line with the cost of oil since oil is used in the manufacture of the fiberglass reins. The cost of oil at face value has gone up considerably in the past 10-15 years. Along with that EPA regulations on manufacturers requires expensive permits and logistical handling/disposal practices which of course are passed off to the consumer. Aluminum is no better the cost of the raw material is what's driving that price. Add to that - just the cost to operate a business and employ people.

2: EPA regulations on emissions has required very expensive changes the manufacture of marine engines. The latest brilliant regulation has forced the use of catalysts on all stern drives. This added on average about 4K to the cost of the powerplant. In fact stern drives used to be cheaper than outboards, not any more. Of course those regulations haven't hit the outboards yet but I'm sure eventually they will. This coupled with the fact you can not longer buy a carburetored engine has added cost too. Fuel injection is expensive versus a carburetor and adds to the cost never mind needless complication.

3: Boats are no longer simply outfitted. People want amenities that add to the cost as well even though I've noticed the more important thing, build quality hasn't really improved if anything it's slipped across all brands. Fancy trimmings don't come cheap and if you notice trying to buy a simple boat these days is impossible. They may look nice, and eye candy doo dads aren't "free".

4: Erosion in the value of the dollar. The feds continue to print money like it's going out of style, the markets are flooded with cheap dollars, interest rates are low and that comes at a cost. The dollar doesn't have the value it used to thus it takes more to buy things. That is across the board, not just boats.

The bottom line here is that boats are a luxury item. The markup on them is big because there is not as much volume and for those in the market many are discriminating and not your average Joe. So the manufacturers are building what is likely to sell. Unfortunately those that are buying these days for the most part don't seem to be troubled by the current prices so the bar at the entry level of the market is well beyond what most people can reasonably afford. It is what it is. I continue to be astonished any of these new boats sell, but they do. Those that are buying them seem to be immune from what the economy is doing, or they simply don't care so long as a payment is low enough for them to make it regardless of the bottom line.

Same can be said of cars, but that is an entirely different subject.

I don't ever recall boats being sold as waterline length. It was typically LOA from bow to stern and excluded anything like pulpits or platforms. These days there seem to be a lot of cases where an integral swim platform counts in the LOA of the boat.

You got me on a technicality...
 

You are correct, brk-int, in that boats are measured in LOA and today, LOA includes the swim platform. My point was that not that long ago, if you bought say a "250" model, you actually had 25' of boat. Today, that "250" model, is 23' of boat, and 2 feet of swim platform, be it an integrated one or a bolt-on one.

Pardon my boat ignorant question; but if the discussion is of handling with respect to size, does a 25 foot boat when measured to the end of a swim platform perform less well than a 25 foot boat without the swim platform? I, of course, do realize there is a difference in interior space but that is not the discussion.

My understanding is, from the insurance and registration view a bolt on swim platform is not considered part of the LOA.

Back to the OP: I got the memo, but did not forward it on to my better half before we bought the Cabin:rolleye2: For us this first year, renting a boat when we needed it worked out fine. We always had a nice clean boat, and it ran!!!!! I wasn't digging through the tool box with a guest asking "when can we go on the boat"? Or worst..... You know I think it's the........:fire:

We had small pontoons, to triple logs with 225hp and anywhere in between; ended the season with a nice deck boat. Besides, if your friends know your renting it you often find $$$ on your dresser after they leave :cheers:What I spent all summer was close to what a years payment would be on something less than I would want to buy. And that's not counting insurance, storage, maintenance and explaining to your older sister why her husband or adult son can't drive your boat:eek:

All in all it was a very enjoyable first summer as a waterfront owner. Now that the first year "surprises" are hopefully over we will look for something to tie up to the dock. Besides my floaty toy;)

There are lots of variables (especially weight, weight distribution, bow design, and deadrise) that affect handling, but a 25 foot boat will generally handle chop better than a 23 foot boat of similar design. The swim platform dos nothing to improve handling.

Yes, I think the difference in boat length has changed as we've gone from bolt on swim platforms to molded swim platforms.

My 2004 SeaRay Sundeck 240 is really 26'10" from tip to tail (including the bolt on swim platform).

Today's SeaRay Sundeck 260 is 26'4" from tip to tail (with a molded swim platform).

So to get the same interior space, I have to go "up a size" now if I want to buy a new boat. The interior layout of the current 260 is the same as yester-years 240.

I assume a molded swim platform adds a little more mass to the boat, so maybe it handles better in heavy chop.

We find the older SeaRay Sundeck 240 to be a perfect island boat. It can handle most winni chop, it will easily hold a couple weeks worth of supplies and best of all you can fit 16' lumber in it for those October projects....

Model numbers are pointless
 

You can't use model numbers to judge boats anymore. It used to be "240" or "220" meant something. Modern boat builders use the model numbers to try to get a boat into competition with other boats of class (hey look my 220 costs what their 200 costs and its "bigger").

I think of model numbers the same way I think of car models ("Tahoe", "C7", etc...). Just "names" meant to evoke a perception. You have to dig into the numbers for hull length w/ and w/o platforms, weight, etc... to try to figure out how a boat will perform.

I've been in some "smaller" boats that will outperform a "bigger" boat in the same water, because of all the variables.

Even demo rides are at the mercy of the weather that day and the person taking you out.

Buying a boat is tough, IMHO...

Used cars . . .
 

pricing went up because of "cash for clunkers". Over a million used cars were demolished. Over time everything corrects itself until the government changes it.

There are bargains out there for boats. If you start looking now, you will find a good deal. We got our boat for 50% less than the list price because he didn't want to pay the slip fee. You just need to find a willing seller.

Good luck.

zero % interest on new cars are creating a used car surplus.
 

http://www.sptimes.com/News/110901/B...ls_help_.shtml

I notice lately used car prices have dropped considerably lately. A couple of years ago 10 year old MB wagons were going for $15. I just purchased a 10 yr old MB wagon with only 60K mileage for $10!

Confused?
 

Not sure I understand your post...??? The article you posted was printed 13 years ago...??? :confused:

Oops!
 

Wrong article here is the latest one!

http://autos.aol.com/article/used-ca...ext-few-years/

conspiracy
 

It's all just a conspiracy to raise your slip and winterization fees.

I have a real nice lake only Sea ray 268 Sundancer for sale

Boat Size
 

In 2003 the American Boat and Yacht Council adopted standard S-8. That states that the strict interpretation of LOA includes only parts that are molded into the hull or deck. It was done to establish uniformity in the description of boat dimensions. It is a voluntary standard that is not followed by all boat builders.

Yes new boat costs are Otta site price wise. I stopped by one dealer in Gilford and I asked what the new 24' bow rider cost he said the MSRP was near $80k, I just laughed and said thnk you.

That said my brother in law is looking for a good used 19-21' that was built in the last few years. He told me he has seen them on boat internet sites & with no bottom paint; no problem finding local NH lake bowriders that are reasonably priced $8k-$15,000.

there is nothing inexpensive when it comes to boating. I look at it from a use standpoint, we are onboard at least 3 times a week if I went on a vacation by the water for the same amount of days the boat is far more cost effective for me. And we all know what it stands for Break Out Another Thousand.

Probably a stupid question but what's an MB Wagon?

Mercedes Benz

$80K, Laketrout?
 

You said the Gilford dealer told you 80K MSRP? Of course, MSRP is a little bit of a fiction, isn't it?
I just got an email from BoatTEST.com with this lead test:

"The Chaparral 223 VRX powered by twin Rotax 4-TEC 150-hp engines has an MSRP of $45,499 and is remarkably well-equipped. That price includes the sport arch, Kevlar reinforced hull, sound system, cockpit table and most everything else needed. The model we tested -- with the twin 200-hp engines -- has a base price of $48,900, and as can be seen above, she scoots. The boat starts at $52,500 with twin Rotax 4-TEC 250-hp engines and we wonder how fast she'll go." I'm sure adding a lot of canvas and a trailer can boost the price.
There's a good video there too. A very impressive package.

to the the ocean
 

At Winni it is a captured audience. Everything from real estate to boats. Look at homes on the lake as an example. $5 million $10 million it is out of control. You can buy a mansion on Monterey Peninsula for less. Boats are the same way. Look for boats for sale in RI or MA on the ocean... Less expensive, way less. Dealers on Winni will tell you all the reasons why you shouldn't purchase a boat that has been in salt water. Think about that.. I own one as do many friends. No more issues than what you would have on the lake. It is a money pit either way. :) Just my 2 cents

http://i44.tinypic.com/1499wms.gif regalguy, I was just browsing through the forum and noticed that you are fairly new to posting on the forum after joining back in February 2010. We are glad that you have come aboard and joined us. Have fun and enjoy the Winni Forum while making many new friends.

Glad to see you back posting as it has been a while. Come and join in more often as there are many great topics to talk about here on the forum.:)

http://i54.tinypic.com/2e56yqf.gif

No So
 

I disagree. There are so many things that the salt affects, many that are not visible until they become a problem. The inside of your water manifolds for one, and corrosion throughout the water passages inside your engine. Even wear on things like the rubber impeller in your cooling system happens much faster because of the abrasiveness of salt. The exterior of the engine in a salt water boat will show deterioration and rust much sooner. Many people on the ocean spray a light coat of WD 40 on their engine to help with the rust issues from the salt air.

If you trailer, the salt does a number on the trailer itself as well as lights, wheels etc. When you look at an ocean boat that is 5 to 10 years old there is a substantial difference in the finish and the chrome and fittings if it has been in salt. No 10 year old boat on the ocean looks anywhere near as good as a lake boat of the same vintage.

Over the last 40 years I have had 12 boats, Some were new, some were used. When I couldn't find what I wanted on Winnipesaukee I went to the Great Lakes where there is a large assortment of fresh water boats. The savings in price far outweighed the cost of trucking the boat to Winnipesaukee.

Just my opinion, but no salt water boats for me.

Respectfully, I would take a fresh water boat over a salt water boat any day. Especially with an I/O. The rest, I agree with :)