PDA

View Full Version : Drowning


East End Rattle
08-05-2006, 07:01 PM
Police boats investigating and looking for body vicinity of RI east end. Don't have any more info about the incident except that apparently was a drowning.

Rattlesnake Gal
08-05-2006, 10:13 PM
We saw the Marine Patrol speeding by with lights and sirens. (Not sure of the exact time perhaps between 2:30 – 3:00.) At least five MP’s, that were super quick in response, congregated with a boat anchored off the southeast end of the island, which had a few people on board. The MP’s immediately started to canvas the area, which lead us to believe it was a drowning. The boat was later towed beside a patrol boat to a home on the island. The Rescue Boat showed up and all of them kept looking around. The Marine Patrol stayed in the area until after sunset. Our hearts and prayers go out to those involved.

Airwaves
08-05-2006, 11:02 PM
Channel 9 reports 2 seperate searches underway on Winni.

1 missing in gilford, 1 in alton. Both jumping off boats and swimming

Rattlesnake Island missing is 51yr old Raymond Man,

Second is 25 year old man from Ireland who jumped off a boat near Varney Pt.

Rinkerfam
08-06-2006, 12:21 AM
We saw perhaps the same boat anchored off of Rattlesnake. My wife and I almost approached to ask if they needed help, but nothing seemed out of the ordinary. Approximately 15-20 min. later when we were heading towards Smith Cove we saw a Marine Patrol boat as well as an unmarked vessel with a uniformed officer at the helm heading full speed out of MP headquarters toward Rattlesnake. It wasn't until the 11:00 news on WMUR that we put it all together. Pretty scary to think that we were so close to such a tragedy but had no clue:(

Lakewinniboater
08-06-2006, 02:16 AM
we heard that something was going on.... saw fire boat go out as well.

my husband was at the lumber yard and heard that something way going on at rattlesnake island.

we assumed that it was a fire..... i am ver disheartened to hear that it may have been a drowning.

I hope and pray that this was not the case. My thoughts and prayers go out to any and all that may have been touch by this incident.

Please update us, as we are hoping all is well and it was blown out of proportion. I can think of much worse than a drowning.

Rattlesnake Gal
08-06-2006, 06:30 AM
Here is WMUR's link to the story. (http://www.wmur.com/news/9635517/detail.html)

Rattlesnake Gal
08-06-2006, 06:39 AM
NH Union Leader Story (http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=2+missing+in+Winnipesaukee%2 c+feared+drowned&articleId=6aecd18b-6b03-45da-812e-574968ae5a32)

Lakewinniboater
08-06-2006, 06:10 PM
any news as to whether these poor gentlemen's bodies have been recovered yet???

jrc
08-06-2006, 08:05 PM
Gas dock rumors are that the body of man in the Gilford incident was recovered this afternoon. I assume that he was found in Saunders bay near the black marker west of Varney point. I saw a large number of MP boats there around 1PM including the big boat and a boat full of divers.

Rattlesnake Gal
08-06-2006, 08:06 PM
WMUR's latest update states that the man in Gilford has been found, but they are still searching for the man the man near Rattlesnake Island. (http://www.wmur.com/news/9635517/detail.html)

Seaplane Pilot
08-07-2006, 09:21 AM
Does anyone know if Marine Patrol or Fish and Game had Saunder's Bay blocked off to boat travel in any way yesterday? Reason I ask is that in one of the anchoring spots where 20-30 of the big cruisers can be seen on any given Saturday or Sunday, there was a total of 0 yesterday. The majority of the big cruisers come out of Saunder's Bay (Mountainview YC and Silver Sands), so on such a beautiful day, I found it extremely unusual that there were no cruisers in their usual anchoring spot. What happened?

jrc
08-07-2006, 09:37 AM
It wasn't blockaded. When I left the Mountain View gas dock around 1PM there was a large circle of MP boats. They blocked of an area extending from the black marker west of Varney Point out toward the Witches and up towards Lockes Island. Pleasure boats had to go around this area, but all the routes were open.

Seaplane Pilot
08-07-2006, 10:01 AM
It wasn't blockaded. When I left the Mountain View gas dock around 1PM there was a large circle of MP boats. They blocked of an area extending from the black marker west of Varney Point out toward the Witches and up towards Lockes Island. Pleasure boats had to go around this area, but all the routes were open. Thanks for the reply and info jrc. Must have just been a strange coincidence.

mcdude
08-07-2006, 10:50 AM
Drowning Victim Had Come to the Lake to Deliver Good News (http://www.cmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060807/REPOSITORY/608070342)

and

Rescuers Recover One Body (http://www.cmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060807/REPOSITORY/608070343)

Very Sad News....

SIKSUKR
08-07-2006, 11:13 AM
This is sad news.I must disagree with the comments in some of the news stories though.I was out in all those area this weekend and I find the worst water as far as waves is from the Weirs to Marine Patrol.As far as I'm concerned its always that way to someone who's boat is 11 ft long.I find it relieving to get to the broads where the waves are generally in one direction formed mostly form the wind.I know I feel much safer getting out of that Weirs to Glendale stretch.There are so many boats coming from every direction that's its a little unerving.For Seaplane Pilot,when I went by Saturday,there were 4 Marine Patrol in a semi-circle off of Varney Point which appeared to be shoeing boaters from their circle.Understandable because their were recovery divers in the area.

jrc
08-07-2006, 12:07 PM
In general Siksukr is right, the 400+ boats coming and going from MVYC, Silver Sands and the WYC do make Saunders bay pretty sloppy and the traffic hectic. But a few times a season when the wind blows straight down the broads, the area between Parker Island, Clay Point and south-east end of Rattlesnake has the biggest waves on the lake. I've had serious concern for my safety making that crossing on bad days.

I really can't imagine swimming from a boat in three foot waves. Three foot lake waves are breaking white caps and not the same as three foot ocean swells.

Diver1111
08-07-2006, 01:29 PM
Hi all,
As a diver I periodically do some search work-most often in the Conn. River. My side scan sonar might be useful here, too, although scanning for a body is very difficult. As I read the news articles posted I was wondering hmmm-Fred Surrette-I went to High School with a Fred Surrette in Massachusetts. Sure enough, its the same gentleman, from Weston, Mass.. I called F&G this morning and offered my services. They expressed some interest and took my name and number but confirmed my fear that the water he might be in is very deep-they are looking at 100 feet or so-brutal from a search perspective. At present F&G is using a video camera. I wish them well.

SteveA
08-07-2006, 03:38 PM
My son was on the family Pontoon on Sunday... as he passed Varney Point he saw the "circle" of MP boats and a "blue bag' being loaded into one of them.

We always have 2 (not just the one required) onboard and out on the deck whenever anyone wants to jump off the boat. We attach a line so if we were to miss the first toss... we can haul it in and keep trying.

I've often wondered why the throwable isn't require to have a line attached.

sad day for a couple of families.... my prayers are with them...

SteveA

secondcurve
08-07-2006, 06:55 PM
A very unfortunate day at the lake. I motored right by where the swimmer was lost off Rattlesnake a couple of hours before the incident and it certainly was rough. It is a very strong wake-up call, as the dangers are not apparent on such a beautiful summer day.

SteveA
08-07-2006, 07:23 PM
I'm on the "broads'.... so I can usually see right off the bat if it's a "good' day or a "bad" day.....

if it's too bad... we just stay close to shore... or turn around and head back to the marina....

Too many people make bad choices on the lake... I feel for both families.. and our prayers are with them

This cam looks right out over the lake near varney point... I usually take a peek at it before heading down to the boat

http://www.winnicam.com/default.htm

upthesaukee
08-07-2006, 10:47 PM
We tend not to hang out at sandbars, and rather will swim (get wet to cool off) in deep water. We always take one of our lines and hold it while we are in the water. Even on a relatively calm day, the wind blowing at 5 MPH can probably move the boat faster than I can swim. Tough thing with 3 foot waves, even if you have hold of a rope, is getting back in the boat with its pitching and rocking!

Deepest sympathies to the families and friends involved.

jrc
08-08-2006, 11:13 AM
Sounds like both of these incidents involved swimming from an unanchored boat in deep water. I've never done this but I see many people doing it safely. I guess I've indirectly done this as part of tubing or skiing, but the swimmer always had a PFD.

What precautions do people use when swimming like this? When we swim from an anchored boat in deep water (anything over my head) we usually have floats to hang on and sometimes we tie a line to the boat so we don't float too far. But these incidents have me thinking.

Frank
08-08-2006, 12:04 PM
Sounds like both of these incidents involved swimming from an unanchored boat in deep water. I've never done this but I see many people doing it safely. I guess I've indirectly done this as part of tubing or skiing, but the swimmer always had a PFD.

What precautions do people use when swimming like this? When we swim from an anchored boat in deep water (anything over my head) we usually have floats to hang on and sometimes we tie a line to the boat so we don't float too far. But these incidents have me thinking.

The precaution we use when swimming off the boat is to always keep one person (adult or older teenager) in the boat. This of course allows that person to bring the boat back should it drift away and/or to toss extra life vests, lines, floats, etc. into the water.

LIforrelaxin
08-08-2006, 12:16 PM
Well I do this all the time....and the first consideration is the conditions....as long as the wind isn't blowing or there is just a slight breeze.....I don't see any issues with it.....you just have to be confortable with it....ie as others have said, wear a life jacket hold a rope etc.... me I am a strong enough swimmer I don't worry much..... but when the wind is blowing and the boat can move away from you.... someone needs to stay in the boat.....and having a throwable floatation device with a rope is a must.... Last but not least...when the wind is blowing enough to make the water rough and further more produce white caps I wouldn't be caught dead jumping from my boat (this third statement also applies when the water is rough from boat traffic)..boarding a boat is hard enough.... let alone trying to do it in swells....In short it is a matter of using your head and having a good conception of how good a swimmer you are.....

Lakewinniboater
08-08-2006, 07:09 PM
does any one know of any updates yet? I feel for this poor family! I can't imagine the pain they are in not having his body back yet.

I know everyone means well. However, second guess someone that has passed away is difficult.

No disrespect to any posters here at all!!

However, maybe those posts can be moved to another topic line. If I were the families I know it would be hurtful for me and probably cause years of second guess and pain.

Just a thought

Airwaves
08-09-2006, 06:16 PM
I posted this on another thread

AP reports the active search has been suspended and the F&G and MP will keep an eye out during normal patrols of the area

Lakewinniboater
08-09-2006, 07:36 PM
that must have been a tough call to suspend the search.

I hope to god they retreive the body for the family...... AND hope that no one other than MP or F&G find it!!!

Diver1111
08-09-2006, 10:34 PM
Hi All,
I just returned from the lake after scouting the area. About 2pm this afternoon (Wed.) I went to the eastern/southeastern end of Rattlesnake and saw MP towing what I assumed was a camera. There were two different colored markers in the water about 80 feet apart. Thats what we do when we search an area-I use different markers and/or colors to help orient myself around a target. I can't say for sure they were using them for the same purpose.

I landmarked the area on GPS and left. I will return late in the day or early in the morning soon to do some much more serious scanning when the water is as flat as its going to get and nobody is around-chop is a killer for my type of SSS. Ideally a towfish is needed, although they suffer from choppy water, too, but some have compensators to take the movement out of the equation. I know some people I am going to talk to soon about commercial-grade deep-diving SSS and seeing if I can get some time out of them.

Rattlesnake Gal
08-10-2006, 08:11 AM
Diver1111 your efforts would be very much appreciated. I wonder why the MP didn’t officially use your services? If I was a family member waiting to recover a missing loved one, I would want to use every tool available. This waiting makes a bad situation worse.
That last comment was in no way a slam on Marine Patrol. They were super quick to respond in forces and have devoted much time to this tragedy. I am impressed and glad we have them.
Does anyone have an idea of how cold it is down at these depths? The water being so deep must have a great impact. Can I guess that it could be a little while yet before a natural resurface?

Diver1111
08-10-2006, 08:47 AM
In answer to your question-it wasn't Marine Patrol that declined-it was one Capt. Garabedian of Fish & Game. As I understand it F&G has control in these situations in the State of N.H.-I never called MP because of this. As time is of the essence I was frustrated to say the least by his response-but believe me, not surprised. Its astonishing that they-or anyone else-would decline an offer of free high-tech help. Am I Bob Ballard?-heck no-but I've got equipment, skills and motivation I'm willing to bring to the table free of charge. If you think about it, you know in your gut why F&G declined. At this point I'm not afraid to name names.

Here's another true story-a few years ago I get a call from a close friend of the Emerson family-this is the fellow whose plane went into the lake with a passenger on board up around Moultonboro. As we already had a great idea where the plane was, he wanted to know if I would dive it and flag it. I said of course but I needed to make a call to F&G to check in with them so to speak-as they are running the show. When I called and asked why nobody was diving the crash site that day-and I quote-"We're not diving because its raining". I won't even get into my personal thoughts at that point-it speaks for itself. And don't get me going when that LearJet dissappeared in '96 after overshooting Lebanon Airport. F&G and State Police had-shall we say-differing opinions of who was going to run that show. This was a serious dispute and I got that information first hand from Pat Hayes, brother of Jay Hayes, one of the pilots of the Lear.

As for temperature at, say, 100 feet, in Winni you're looking at 38-44 degrees, roughly. There are various factors that impact what happens to a body in that environment-body fat content, what they were wearing, currents, if any, marine life, what they ate that day and more. I was scallop diving off Gloucester last week in 70 feet of water and it was 48 degrees.

As for re-surfacing, of course body knows for sure when, and if, he does. appear.

SAMIAM
08-10-2006, 12:06 PM
Diver,that was most generous and unselfish of you to offer your services.If I were a member of his family,I think I'd feel better with you in my corner than a fleet of bureaucrats who are probably more concerned with bragging rights,job security and future budget increases.
Your offer is in the spirit of neighbor helping neighbor......people working together......the way it used to be and should be now.
I find it sad that they turned down your help.

dpg
08-10-2006, 12:10 PM
I just don't get it. When someone jumps in off a boat and doesn't surface in like 6 seconds doesn't ANYONE he/she was with jump in and see what (if anything) has happened? People jump/swim off my boat all the time and you can bet I'd be in the water in seconds if they didn't surface in a reasonable time. Think about it, "reasonable" is really only seconds.

Weirs guy
08-10-2006, 12:24 PM
I'm sure theres some politically correct long winded reason why F&G can't have a civilian helping, but does that mean we can't help after they fold up and go home? I wonder if there's any issues with that. Seems to me that once they stop looking its up to us to help the family find closure since I doubt the body will show up on Hazen Dr. in Concord. Such a tragedy, compounded by political constraints.

Good luck diver1111 and godspeed.

Seadoo
08-10-2006, 12:25 PM
I just don't get it. When someone jumps in off a boat and doesn't surface in like 6 seconds doesn't ANYONE he/she was with jump in and see what (if anything) has happened? People jump/swim off my boat all the time and you can bet I'd be in the water in seconds if they didn't surface in a reasonable time. Think about it, "reasonable" is really only seconds.
well not everone is as smart as you

Airwaves
08-10-2006, 01:30 PM
Actually such jurisdictional issues are not exclusive to F&G.

A quick story, several years ago my Coast Guard Aux Flotilla was meeting at a boathouse on the Merrimack River in Lowell. In addition to the 25 or 30 members of the Coast Guard Aux, the Master Chief Warrent Officer of Group Boston was in attendance with a PO.

Anyway, during the meeting a power boat hit an unlighted canoe about 100 yards away from where we were meeting. I personally told the fire capt of the availability of 30 members of Team Coast Guard to immediately assist in the search as well as several additional boats (and at that point a helo might have been available equipped with sunstar and heat seeking devices) I was told flat out, no, they had it under control.

The bodies weren't recovered for a week.

dpg....from what I heard of the story the gentleman who remains missing was able to push his fiance/girlfriend toward the boat that was drifting away faster than they could swim to it, then he went under....unless I am confusing the two incidents.

Rattlesnake Gal
08-10-2006, 06:36 PM
We felt completely helpless here on Saturday watching everything unfold, Diver1111 is there anything we can do to help you in your efforts?

Waterbaby
08-10-2006, 09:13 PM
I just don't get it. When someone jumps in off a boat and doesn't surface in like 6 seconds doesn't ANYONE he/she was with jump in and see what (if anything) has happened? People jump/swim off my boat all the time and you can bet I'd be in the water in seconds if they didn't surface in a reasonable time. Think about it, "reasonable" is really only seconds.

dpg, Do you honestly think you would be able to find someone in the water if you are also in the water in 3' swells? Think about it..... if there is even one swell between you and them all you are basically going to see is a wall of water, you are not going to see the other person. And, in that case, you would more than likely have a hard time seeing the boat from which you jumped. Then after a bit, when all you can see is that wall of water, and nothing else, panic and/or disorientation is likely to start setting in....... and the rest would be history. In my opinion, if someone doesn't surface the best thing to do, for yourself and them, is to remain on the boat and do whatever you have to do to get help and hopefully be able to get that person rescued.

dpg
08-11-2006, 06:25 AM
Well, I disagree and hopefully never find out for myself.

Grant
08-11-2006, 08:06 AM
You can sink pretty far & fast in four, five, six seconds, and the Lake gets dark awfully fast. Three-foot swells make a rescue more than a little difficult, especially for someone without lifesaving or water safety training. Lose sight of a person in distress, and it's going to be awfully hard to find them in that part of the lake. Swells like that move a boat quickly...and the spot where you *believe* a person went down is actually far from it.

Mee-n-Mac
08-11-2006, 09:31 AM
I just don't get it. When someone jumps in off a boat and doesn't surface in like 6 seconds doesn't ANYONE he/she was with jump in and see what (if anything) has happened? People jump/swim off my boat all the time and you can bet I'd be in the water in seconds if they didn't surface in a reasonable time. Think about it, "reasonable" is really only seconds.

It's not clear to me that in either case there was someone available that could swim to even attempt (whether smart or not) a rescue. In the Gilford case 2 people went swimming and there's only mention of 1 left remaining on the boat. He (correctly IMO) tried to manuver the boat back to the swimmers when he saw them in distress. In the Rattlesnake I case it appears both men went swimming leaving the wife and fiancee in the boat. Did either of them know how to swim ? or pilot the boat ?? I don't know.

The best rescue option would have been a throwbag (http://www.overtons.com/modperl/overtons/detail/pdetail2.cgi?r=detail_view&item_num=33100) (or lifesling (http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&classNum=105&subdeptNum=104&storeNum=8&productId=31718) if you want to be fancy) like SteveA mentioned. I have to admit I gave some thought to getting one after the Lake George accident ("What would I do if I ever came upon a similar situation") but never acted on the thought.

FYI - http://www.boatus.com/foundation/Findings/line_launch.htm

winnilakegirl
08-11-2006, 10:28 AM
Just a follow up to the posts I have read and some corrections on the facts. The fiance(female) was swimming and got into trouble. The guy jumped in to help her get back to the boat--which he was able to do. After doing this he himself must have been over come , knocked out or whatever and dissapeared. I know this as fact through talking with a friend of the victims family. He was a hero saving her but paid the price himself by doing that without floation. It is sad no matter what.
We all do dumb thing when we see someone drowning--react first , think second--and don't always do the right thing. I know this from experience. When I was a kid my best friend paniced while swimming. I jumped in to help her only to be drowned myself as she pushed me under. Finally my brother jumped in to save us both. Lets just say it was a scarey experience. I reacted before thinking.

As of last night they still haven't found him

winnilakegirl

Airwaves
08-11-2006, 02:16 PM
Losing sight of a man overboard is a very easy thing to do. That's why in training with the Coast Guard and Coast Guard Aux there is a spotter whose ONLY job is to keep sight of the swimmer in trouble and continuosly point to the location. That allows the helmsman to steer the boat toward the correct spot.

Add three foot waves and chop to the equation, untrainned people on board, some wind blowing the boat, a little panic and the confusion on the boat dealing with the woman who had just been rescued and it's easy to see how the gentleman was lost.

Tir Na Nog
08-11-2006, 04:25 PM
Someone else metnioned keeping a throw bag handy. I agree and highly recommend it. When I bought my boat about 8 years ago I already had a throw bag that I had used for white water canoeing. The bag came in handy once on the river when another of the canoes in our group went over. What is nice about the bag is that it is a nice size for clipping somewhere on a rail on your boat so that it is readily available. You can throw the bag much further than a PFD and it can be grabbed and used quickly.

Waterbaby
08-11-2006, 09:08 PM
Well, I disagree and hopefully never find out for myself.

I sincerely agree with you, dpg -- I hope I never find out and that nobody here on this forum or anywhere else ever has to find out. Unfortunately, I know my hope will not come true, people are going to drown be it in Winni or some other body of water somewhere, so I guess I should amend my hope to say I hope none of us ever experience it.

Airwaves
08-11-2006, 11:50 PM
I thought I'd share this with you since the topic of a throw rope came up. It is an excellent idea to have one on board, I have had one immediately available (within arms reach of the helm) since I began boating.

The following link will take you to the form that must be completed before any Coast Guard Auxiliarist can offer his/her boat as a facility or an operational facility (an operational facilitiy is one that actually assists the Coast Guard on missions, such as safety patrols or search and rescue).

I am not violating protocol or security in disclosing this link, it is a blank form listing items required on board boats belonging to members of the Coast Guard Aux.

Certainly these are more safety items that are required on recretational boats, but it is not a bad guideline to use.

You will note that #19 of the non operational use form requires the boat to meet ALL state requirements and #1 of the operational use form requires compliance with all aspects of the non operational use form (including state requirements).

As for the throw bag that has come up in postings, it is required on USGCAux operational vessels under #23 of the operational requirements, it is officially called a "Heaving Line".

http://forms.cgaux.org/archive/a7003f.pdf

Mee-n-Mac
08-13-2006, 10:49 AM
{snip} As for the throw bag that has come up in postings, it is required on USGCAux operational vessels under #23 of the operational requirements, it is officially called a "Heaving Line".


Good to know the official definition for the throw bag. So now I have to ask ... if the bag mentioned is thrown to a "woman of ill repute" who's in distress ... is this where the term "Heave Ho" comes from ? :eek: ;)

NightWing
08-13-2006, 11:16 AM
.................... it is officially called a "Heaving Line".


I thought that was the term for the path into the bathroom at a toga party...........:D

Airwaves
08-13-2006, 12:19 PM
I like it! :laugh: Heave Ho, Heaving line, yep:) How about this one, to create your own heaving line you can attach a line to a Monkey Fist! Have fun :laugh:

jrc
08-13-2006, 07:25 PM
I thought I'd share this with you since the topic of a throw rope came up. It is an excellent idea to have one on board, I have had one immediately available (within arms reach of the helm) since I began boating.....
http://forms.cgaux.org/archive/a7003f.pdf

At the Meredith town docks this weekend, the NH Marine Patrol (Aux?) offered free safety inspections. So of course he asks to see the type IV throwable PFD and I show him. He says it's although it's legal without a rope, you had better be a good shot.

Without a rope you have one chance to get the PFD to a person overboard. With a rope you can keep trying. He sugeested that I at least get 25' to 50' of cheap polypropelene (it floats) and tie it to the PFD. I'll also look into a throw bag/rope.

Diver1111
08-13-2006, 07:47 PM
Hi All,
I have been out of the Forum loop intentionally while planning additional scans of the Island. As I don't know who else might be viewing this web site, and I need to choose what I write carefully, and when. Thanks Rattlesnake Gal for your offer of help-if, as and when I need it I will let you know. Very kind.

In a prior posting I mentioned trying to bring in heavy duty commercial-grade side-scan equipment (my side-scan is dynamite, but its out of its league here for technical reasons I won't bore you with). I did just that, with the best equipment available, connecting with a real expert in this field, and spent about 7 hours today on his boat scanning the east side based upon information I have gathered (for those who might be curious, the equipment was worth a fat five figures). Our scan field was 1,000 feet north and 1,000 feet south of the prime search point I identified. We have one "target-of-interest" we need to get back to. Problems today included heavy wind-at some points pushing 25 mph-white caps of course pretty much the whole day, and some swells that more than once had us surfing down the face of waves.

We used a towfish-based system (the thing we lower into the water that looks like a Sidewinder missile), so its not as vulnerable to "heave", the technical term for what happens when the fish is jerked by movement of the boat due to wave action. I learned alot, and was extremely impressed with this equipment, as well as the operator-the man I hired to do the work. All of the days scans will be given to me on DVD for my use (about 6GB of data).

I will return to continue the work one more time with this equipment, as we need to re-scan and triangulate some targets to fine-tune the position, and possibly expand the area a bit. Weather permitting we may use a drop camera to look around those targets. Most importantly I need to get flatter water-today was brutal but we actually did OK considering.

One thing I could use-if anyone knows anyone-is an ROV with a camera (Remotely Operated Vehicle). We would use this to go down and view targets. As I am out of my mind anyways, I was actually checking them out on the Net recently. As if I didn't spend enough on my own SSS. I saw a snappy little unit called a VideoRay on TV the other night, used on Lake Champlain by a charter outfit to show people shipwrecks-it was terrific. About $6,000 for their low-end model. If I have a good year I will buy one, but one thing at a time...maybe next year.

Lastly, I am in touch with the family personally-no need for anyone to call any of the Surettes for any reason.

Still in the game...

upthesaukee
08-13-2006, 10:42 PM
Diver...you have my utmost respect for what you are trying to do to help the Surrette family and friends. Bless you, Godspeed hopefully with good results, and thanks.

Dave Cumming

Misty Blue
08-14-2006, 09:46 AM
First: Awsome 1111. You are a real"buddy".

JRC: Abot throwable PFDs...

I have several type IVs aboard and have a line handy but it is not attached. Here is why. Private owners usually operate small, rather fast vessels. If some one falls over the side 25 feet of line won't help them because the victim is too far astern. This is how the drill goes... Your brother in law, Larry, is sipping a beer while sitting on the starboard gunwale, the first thing is dumb, the second is illegal. He leans back and falls over the side. You see this and...

1. MAN OVERBOARD, STARBOARD SIDE!!! The Coxswain will steer to starboard thus moving the screws and rudders away from the victim.

2. You throw a type IV PFD over the side (stern) to the victim. Again he is probably far behind it.

3. You point at the victim with your finger. A person in the water (PIW) is very hard to see, especially in rough waters, and keeping your finger pointed at him will help to find him.

4. The coxswain performs a "Willimson's turn" (remember to the side that he fell over on). That is a fancy name for the turn that you do to pick up a water skiier.
Here is where the PFD becomes important.

5. The coxswain does a 180 turn and follows the propwash back. Since you threw the PFD astern after the victim it will be directly in line with him. You will see propwash, the PFD then the victim in that order and all in line.

Now is the time to throw a type IV with a line on it or to gaff cousin Larry with the boat hook and bring him aboard.

I keep a poly'prope line (50') with a snap shackle on it by the type IV so that I can attach it to the PFD in a hurry for a close pick up. But to teather a type IV takes the throw out of throwable.

'Hope you never need this advice.

Misty Blue.

RumGuy
08-14-2006, 10:25 AM
At the Meredith town docks this weekend, the NH Marine Patrol (Aux?) offered free safety inspections. So of course he asks to see the type IV throwable PFD and I show him. He says it's although it's legal without a rope, you had better be a good shot.

Without a rope you have one chance to get the PFD to a person overboard. With a rope you can keep trying. He sugeested that I at least get 25' to 50' of cheap polypropelene (it floats) and tie it to the PFD. I'll also look into a throw bag/rope.


I have a brass snap shackle on the end of my ski line, to connect it to the boat. After reading this post, I see that line as a multi purpose line. YES, I know that the shackle has the potential for making a lump on a noggin, but it's better than the alternative.

SIKSUKR
08-14-2006, 10:29 AM
Pretty impressive Diver1111.I'm sure your efforts are appreciated.

Lakewinniboater
08-14-2006, 01:28 PM
Diver1111, your efforts are certainly appreciated! Nice to see that some of us are still good neighbors and will help one another!

Just out of curiousity. Does the wind and chop play a factor and might the body have moved considerably or is it too far down to be effected?

I know it isn't a nice subject, but I don't know anything about these things and am curious. I just can't imagine the horror if it shows up somewhere.... plus, I am sure the family really just wants to have some closure.

66WINN
08-14-2006, 07:03 PM
Thanks Misty Blue.

I found your advice very informative and useful. Hopefully the information posted on this thread will help to provide something good out of this tragedy.

jrc
08-14-2006, 07:12 PM
Misty, so basically you're using the first PFD as a marker and the second to pull the person in.
Great advice, thanks.

Mee-n-Mac
08-14-2006, 07:58 PM
Pretty impressive Diver1111.I'm sure your efforts are appreciated.

I'll third that ! I hope your efforts bring the family some closure. Remind me to buy you a cold one.

Pepper
08-14-2006, 09:45 PM
Diver1111, Wow. Your selfless acts of kindness and compassion are remarkable. I'm hopeful that your efforts will help the family bring him home. Best wishes to you and all who are assisting you.

Diver1111
08-14-2006, 09:57 PM
Hi All,
I will return to Rattlesnake in the near future loaded for bear for another try for Fred Surette with the deep-water SSS technology we used on Sunday. My guy has offered to come back at no charge. Sweet!

Question: I really need to take into account the possibility of currents along East Rattlesnake. In the ocean I expect them-but a standing body of freshwater-not really-although Lake Champlain has some astonishing currents. When I say current here I don't mean casual wind-driven stuff-I mean something that might even be measurable in deeper water, down to a knot or so or better-something that could pull an object along. I don't really know who would know Winni like that and be able to give me a specific answer about this specific area. One ice fisherman I spoke with on Sunday saw the gear in the boat on shore and asked what it was about-I told him. He said oh yeah, in the spring when the ice chunks move out they go along East Rattlesnake and down into Alton Bay. But thats surface movement. Could it mean deeper water movement too? I don't know.

!!! Does anyone have any ideas about who I can call? UNH? DES? This is important because I only have one more shot at this with the deep-water gear and if there is a reasonable chance Fred has moved I need to know this to adjust the search area. I would really appreciate anyone's help on this one!!!

In reply to LakeWinniBoater, the chop would tend to force a body under faster. As a diver I can tell you it gets very calm quickly once you're under-and you don't have to be down far-say 4-5 feet before everything smooths out.

My fear is that the body may be in an acoustic shadow-look at my SSS post of the Lady and you clearly see black areas-thats where the sonar wave cannot scan and send back a reflection-literally an electronic black hole. Acoustic shadows can tell you alot about what CREATED it but not whats IN it. The technology we employed Sunday-among other wild abilities-allowed me to measure an object to down to fractions of a meter. Move the cursor on to the object in question, press a button and you know how big it is in any direction. For example, there is a massive boulder field in the area we were in-we measured one stone at nearly 25 feet in diameter. We are concerned about this section of the scan area due to the shadows. However other parts of the scan area where very good terrain for our purposes-level for the most part.

Folks have offered help to me on this site-until now I've been pretty much on my own-because there just isn't much anyone can do to help me-until now-I am pleased to be able to come to you now for this question-who knows Winni water movement???. Thank you all!

Coolbreeze
08-14-2006, 10:14 PM
Diver1111, would a topo map of the botton of the lake show you an idea of current or water movement? Aren't spring fed lakes full of different currents? Try to start where the guy was first lost then let the surface current show the path. If the target surfaced at night or anytime, it would be the surface current that would take it away from the point of origin. God speed amigo! I would guess that the target is in that boulder field.

Mee-n-Mac
08-14-2006, 10:21 PM
Hi All,
I will return to Rattlesnake in the near future loaded for bear for another try for Fred Surette with the deep-water SSS technology we used on Sunday. My guy has offered to come back at no charge. Sweet!

Question: I really need to take into account the possibility of currents along East Rattlesnake. In the ocean I expect them-but a standing body of freshwater-not really-although Lake Champlain has some astonishing currents. When I say current here I don't mean casual wind-driven stuff-I mean something that might even be measurable in deeper water, down to a knot or so or better-something that could pull an object along. I don't really know who would know Winni like that and be able to give me a specific answer about this specific area. {snip}

Hopefully one of the divers or fishermen can better answer you than I will. In the event that you can't find an answer perhaps you could do a test with your SSS before getting back to the borrowed gear. Could you drop something just a bit negatively bouyant (weighted ball or cylinder) and then track it with your gear ? This would give you an idea of current (if any) vs depth. Just a thought ...

GWC...
08-14-2006, 10:38 PM
Hi All,
Question: I really need to take into account the possibility of currents along East Rattlesnake. I don't really know who would know Winni like that and be able to give me a specific answer about this specific area. One ice fisherman I spoke with on Sunday saw the gear in the boat on shore and asked what it was about-I told him. He said oh yeah, in the spring when the ice chunks move out they go along East Rattlesnake and down into Alton Bay. But thats surface movement. Could it mean deeper water movement too? I don't know.

!!! Does anyone have any ideas about who I can call? UNH? DES? This is important because I only have one more shot at this with the deep-water gear and if there is a reasonable chance Fred has moved I need to know this to adjust the search area. I would really appreciate anyone's help on this one!!!

Folks have offered help to me on this site-until now I've been pretty much on my own-because there just isn't much anyone can do to help me-until now-I am pleased to be able to come to you now for this question-who knows Winni water movement???. Thank you all!

This cabin-fever-inspired thread might yield a clue or two.

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1407&highlight=winni+tide

The wind blows West to East and pushes the water easterly, causing a decrease in height to the West. This causes the water to seek its own height and flow (tide) westerly.

Check the wind movements since the incident for possible water movement below the surface, as the Lake attempts to maintain its level height.

Also, keep in mind that Weirs is an outlet and Alton Bay is an inlet.

Good luck.

jrc
08-14-2006, 10:50 PM
Regarding currents, according to family members, we lost a cousin to drowning in the same general area as Frank Surette. This happened in the late 70's or early 80's. His body surfaced two weeks later in Alton Bay.

This seems to contradict the general flow of the lake. As you probably know the only discharge from the lake is in Lakeport. The river in Alton, Lake Wentworth in Wolfeboro, Mirror Lake in Tuftonboro and a bunch of small stream are all inflows at that end of the lake. So in general all water must flow out of Alton Bay, Wolfeboro Bay and Winter Harbor, up the Broads towards the Weirs, down Paugus bay and out the dam.

Airwaves
08-14-2006, 11:40 PM
Diver1111
I don't know if this will help or is a wild goose chase, but I found this article which centers on Diamond Island, but indicates that the Navy, MIT and UNH have all done underwater research in the lake, one or all of them may have information on whether or not there are underwater currents

Good luck!

http://www.lwhs.us/gilford/diamondisland2.htm

joann721
08-15-2006, 11:39 AM
God Bless you for all your efforts.... It does a soul good to know that there are people like you, willing to help, and bring Mr Surette home to his family.

Weirs guy
08-15-2006, 12:23 PM
Regarding currents, according to family members, we lost a cousin to drowning in the same general area as Frank Surette. This happened in the late 70's or early 80's. His body surfaced two weeks later in Alton Bay.

Wow, this is a tough topic to word here. Is it feasible that Mr. Surette will eventual end up in the same basic area as other bodies have? My thinking is this (unfortunately) isn't the first body to be lost on winni, so does anyone else here know where others have ended up? I’d bet that information is easier to come by then underwater studies? Maybe we can make some correlation here? Would the current that carried a snowmobilers body during the winter be the same now?

Misty Blue
08-15-2006, 01:23 PM
Diver 1111:

Buddy, you are th best.

How about this for a try? I assume that you have a fairly good GPS fix on the scene which gives us a datum to start from. While I am not sure of the depth (I'll check when I get home), I expect that it is diveable.

I am off mid week this week and can plant a series of flags (engineer's tape) on rods placed in the Lake bottom at datum and determine a compass course that an object may drift as indicated by the direction of the engineer's tape and a release of food coloring. I called Boat/US and they will supply a salvage boat, crew and equipment for the project gratus.

"Could work. Do you think that it is worth it? If so time is of the essence and there are logistical issues. Phone me at 603-455-7178 to let me know if I should get the ball rolling.

Misty Blue

Grant
08-15-2006, 01:43 PM
On the eastern side of Rattlesnake, the depth could be considerable. The rods with tape might a good way to gauge current direction there, although the food dye might be harder to see, as the visibility below 60-70 feet is going to be minimal. The sonar is useful, but like d111 said, the shadows and abundant rocks leave a lot of question marks.

Mee-n-Mac
08-15-2006, 04:45 PM
I am off mid week this week and can plant a series of flags (engineer's tape) on rods placed in the Lake bottom at datum and determine a compass course that an object may drift as indicated by the direction of the engineer's tape and a release of food coloring. I called Boat/US and they will supply a salvage boat, crew and equipment for the project gratus.
{snip}
Misty Blue

OK, now you've got me thinking of another idea. Could we drop a "body simulator" (sorry for the insensitive wording, I need to be precise here) tied to a thin line with some tiny floats. The floats could be spaced every 20 or so feet and be sized (think ping pong balls) just to float the line and not (so much) the simulator. Then from the surface we could track the position and depth that the simulator goes through. We could retrieve and redo the experiment from multiple locations to get a range of possibilities. Alternately we could suspend the simulator at a fixed depth and repeat for a few differing depths (if needed). This is something that us non-divers could do. Just another thought.

Waterbaby
08-15-2006, 05:32 PM
!!! Does anyone have any ideas about who I can call? UNH? DES? This is important because I only have one more shot at this with the deep-water gear and if there is a reasonable chance Fred has moved I need to know this to adjust the search area. I would really appreciate anyone's help on this one!!!



Folks have offered help to me on this site-until now I've been pretty much on my own-because there just isn't much anyone can do to help me-until now-I am pleased to be able to come to you now for this question-who knows Winni water movement???. Thank you all!

Diver1111 - First, may I say I really admire your selflessness and willingness to find Mr. Surette and return him to his family. I'm sure this will speed up their ability for closure; I cannot imagine the heartbreak they are experiencing, knowing he is lost to them forever but not really being able to accept it without his body.

I would recommend calling Dive Winnipesaukee in Wolfeboro; their telephone number is 569-8080 and website is www.divewinnipesaukee.com. There used to be a poster here on the Winni Website whose handle was Winni Diver; don't know if he was affiliated with them or not and don't recall having seen him in awhile, but DW may be able to give you some pointers and info on currents, etc.

I wish you the best in your endeavor and hope you are successful. Also, please think about attending the Forum Fest in September (date still TBD; see the "sticky" at the top of the General Discussion thread for final details). I am sure there are many posters here who would like to meet you and thank you personally for what you are doing; it may also interest you to meet some of the people you have corresponded with here.

Waterbaby
08-15-2006, 05:44 PM
........ each and every one of you, all of the posters on this website. I'm sitting here, reading these posts and all of the ideas and the willingness to help find the body of a man whom none of us has met, feeling the empathy everyone has for the family of Mr. Surette and others who have been in accidents and other situations, whether it's losing a loved one or being in a personal crisis, and the support everyone gives to everyone else and I have goosebumps and tears in my eyes. I'm not exceptionally eloquent when it comes to expressing myself, but this is a great bunch of people on this site and it just shows how wonderful human nature really can be, how caring. Now I'm getting a tissue to wipe my eyes. Here's a great big HUG to all of you people, and a special thanks to Don Z. for letting us all "know" each other, and bringing us all together.

Pepper
08-15-2006, 06:44 PM
You're expressing what so many of us feel about our "forum family" here. My signature line is precisely how I feel. ;)

ApS
08-15-2006, 06:57 PM
Wow, this is a tough topic to word here. Is it feasible that Mr. Surette will eventual end up in the same basic area as other bodies have? My thinking is this (unfortunately) isn't the first body to be lost on winni, so does anyone else here know where others have ended up? I’d bet that information is easier to come by then underwater studies? Maybe we can make some correlation here? Would the current that carried a snowmobilers body during the winter be the same now?
It is a tough topic.

Whatever currents there were on the 5th, there's probably no greater natural force now than the wind.

Most of the wind lately has been from the NW—and strongly at that.

Diver1111
08-16-2006, 12:57 AM
Hi All,

Boy its hard to write intelligently here for me here on the Forum sometimes. Its often difficult just to know where to begin, and as previously stated in other postings, I need to choose my words carefully.

One thing I can tell all of you wonderful people-this is just something I have to do. I want to do it. It makes me feel good. I enjoy the work involved. Its a labor of love, pure and simple. In situations like this I really like to win. By win, I mean find what I’m looking for, for obvious reasons. I wish I could post more detail about what I have planned, who is working with me etc. but its not a publicity stunt of course or a side-show. NOT that anyone on the Forum treats it like one-its important for you to know I recognize this.

Nor is it my intent to appear mysterious or evasive when I don’t write more because 1) I don't want to get anyone's hopes up by loud-mouthed speculation just to fill in white space, tease your imagination or sound like a big-shot-thats just not me (Ross Perot said it well about people like that…”Big hat-no cattle”) 2) I don't want to have to explain my self to law enforcement IF they should care to bust my crackers and tell me what I can and cannot do. I don’t break any laws ever when doing this work. Persons in law enforcement as a rule are good people but the few I have encountered that think they’re God and control all aspects of things like this piss me off. I’ve seen it time and again. Other people who do what I do have seen it time and again. The stories others have told me...bad, really bad. I couldn’t even get the Captain I spoke with at Fish & Game to return a 2nd call I made to him after I first spoke with him on 8/14 to offer my own SSS, which he declined to take me up on as we know (I had another question to pose to him). If he thinks I am going to call him again he’s wrong. He made his position quite clear to me-I just read between the lines-simple. And I assume they are reading all of these posts.

Answers to:
Cool Breeze: Topo map-if one was available I’d like to see it, but I wouldn’t know where to look. For ground searches we use USGS 1:24,000 or 1:25,000 topos-awesome maps. However I know of no such thing for water. The best I could come up with would be depth soundings or the graphical images I have from the scans recorded on to the onboard laptop we used Sunday.

Mee-n-Mac: Tracking a moving object-regardless of its buoyancy-would be very difficult if not impossible even with the gear we have. The speed we scan at is super slow-2/3mph as an average-in other words the boat would move faster than the object, unless we are in the CT River when they let water out to generate power or similar body of water. And we have to keep the towfish from crashing into the bottom. That’s why turns to re-position ourselves for another run along the lines we have laid out in the computer have to be shall we say…deliberate.

GWC: I like your idea about the UNH Maritime Club- I will call them. Great suggestion.

Airwaves: Diamond Island article didn’t help but what a great read! Stories like that are what make Winni, Winni.

Joann721: You along with all the others in their own words, said it well…it does a soul good. I feel that everytime I set out in my boat or car to do this work. Which by the way is purely voluntary-I have a job-really. I’m self-employed so that really helps with making the time when it needs to be made.

MistyBlue: The word “synchronicity” came to mind when I read your post. Lying in bed thinking about this thing I figured out a quick way to get some of the current data I want-dive the damn thing. I want to lay out a series of floats and/or dive flags in a grid using GPS with orange surveyors tape in 10 or 20 foot increments along the line down to the weight on the lake bed, then dive down the line and see whats flappin’. Not only will it give me an idea of current (if any) but what direction. I would stop at about 70 feet max. for several reasons unless I had company. BOAT/US is kind to offer what they did-I don’t think I need them at this time-but it could change. Thanks for making the call to them. Are you a diver? I will call you to discuss.

Mee-n-Mac: Body simulator-neat idea. Reminds me of a story one of my CT. River dive buddies told me a few years back. Seems a local Fire Dept. was doing rescue training on the river using just such a setup. Fully clothed dummy, simulating human weight and dimensions etc.. Then they lost it in the river-had to notify the public not to freakout if a “body-like” object goes by in the water. Clothes and all.

Your idea has merit, but I have my hands full with what I do best. Assuming we could hang such a device just off the bottom it would be very interesting to see where it went. Very interesting indeed. Homework assignment: Take your idea and run with it. Let us know.

Waterbaby: I intend to call Dive Winni to ask some questions that they might well know the answers to. Thanks. As for the Forum Fest, that sounds like great fun. Do I qualify even though I don’t have a place on the Lake? Just kidding. It would be great to meet you folks.

I will hold my course on this search and will post what is appropriate to post, when its appropriate. Thanks all for your kindness and support.

NHFreedom
08-16-2006, 01:19 AM
Diver1111,

I think I speak for everyone when I say that I'm personally touched and moved by your commitment and selflessness. It makes me proud to be an American and humbled by the freedom we share...the commitment to one another that we often voluntary accept, without prejudice, without connection, without knowledge of the individual...for the sake of humanity and decency.

Thank you.

-NHFreedom

Old Hubbard Rd
08-21-2006, 12:29 AM
Has the missing drowning victim been found??

SteveA
08-28-2006, 07:27 AM
This is from todays Citizen,

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060827/CITIZEN0102/108270142/-1/CITIZEN

Diver1111
08-28-2006, 08:30 PM
Hi All,

On Sunday 8/20 I went out to run SSS in my boat in the hopes that the rain would flatten things out-rainy days can be great to go fishing etc. because things are often alot calmer. For the most part that was the case. I worked for about 3 hours around a 2nd target location I was given, then headed home.

On Friday 8/25 I went out again all day with the specialist I brought in about two weeks prior. We used his boat and his commercial grade towfish SSS again (one amazing piece of high tech gear).This time we incorporated the first search area into the second target and surrounding area I was given, forming one large rectangle. We worked the entire block hard, getting very good images. Scanned territory was perhaps ¾ mile long if not more. At one point we hit 144 feet.

However, the rocky terrain continues to pose huge obstacles to finding much of anything, for several reasons, not the least of which is any "object of interest" being in an acoustic shadow. Worse yet, down in a crevice of other fissure in the rock. We did find good areas of Kansas-flat terrain with silt/mud bottom-good for what we are doing, but when we weren’t in those areas the stone on the lake bed was dramatic.

I regret to say that we did not definitively find what we were looking for. I will get the entire day’s scan on DVD and send F&G coordinates of things-of-interest to search with their ROV, but we saw nothing that spoke to us that I could say was encouraging at all.

For the time being that’s it. I will work the area in shallower water with my own SSS, perhaps diving where warranted. I don’t know how to take this further at this time. I have done everything I can. Thank you all for your support and encouragement-it really meant a lot to me-believe it.

And I will be at Forum Fest-how could I miss that? I have to meet you folks-sounds like a great crew.
Regards,
Diver1111

Old Hubbard Rd
09-03-2006, 10:36 AM
Here is the listing as it appears in the Boston Globe today:

Frederick J. Surette
Of Raymond, NH, formerly of Nashua, NH, Lynn & Weston, MA, suddenly in a swimming accident August 5th, 2006. Beloved son of the late Raymond L. and Agnes A. (Cotton) Surette. Devoted brother of Raymond L. Surette and his wife Marilyn of Alton Bay, NH., Thomas C. Surette and his wife Christine of Newmarket, NH., Ann Marie Penney and her husband William of Gilbert, AZ, Patricia A. Vanaria and her husband Richard of Natick, and Mary Linda Trudeau and her husband Dennis of Marlboro. Loving Fiance of Muriel Labrie of Hooksett, NH. In addition he is survived by 10 nieces, 7 nephews, many aunts, uncles, cousins and dear friends. A Memorial Service in celebration of his life will be held at Saint Julias Church, 374 Boston Post Road, (Rte.# 20) Weston on Friday Sept. 8th at 12:00 noon. Relatives & friends are respectfully invited to attend. In lieu of flowers expressions of sympathy may be made in his memory to the American Cancer Society, 30 Speen St., Framingham, Ma. 01701. The Brasco & Sons Memorial Chapels, WALTHAM, assisted the family with arrangements. Brasco & Sons Memorial Chapels WALTHAM781-893-6260

Dave R
09-04-2006, 06:24 PM
Just saw on the news that the body was recovered today. Hope it brings some closure to his loved ones.

Pepper
09-04-2006, 09:20 PM
It's just so sad. Heartbreaking, really.

I'm thankful that the family will have closure, and that he was recovered before the memorial service.

God Bless all those who took part in the days of search and rescue, and especially our own Diver1111 for all his efforts!

Now I'll be praying for all those who were involved in todays recovery, as it surely was a very difficult day for all of them.

Waterbaby
09-04-2006, 09:24 PM
WMUR reported on the news that he has surfaced..... I'm so glad for the family that they can have some closure, since his body has been found, but it's kind of eerie (I think) that he surfaced the day after services were announced. I also pray that whomever saw him surface doesn't suffer any after-effects, I cannot imagine what that can do to a person. Prayers to the relatives of Mr. Surrette, and prayers that he may rest in peace.

Diver1111
09-04-2006, 10:23 PM
Hi All,

Just came in the door to a message from Ray Surette giving me the news. I am very pleased. I spoke at length with his wife Marilyn when I called them back-apparently Fred was found around the Ship Island area by boaters. No specifics.

Thanks again all-and see you at Forum Fest-my first!

Skip
09-05-2006, 06:08 AM
Raymond man's body recovered (http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060905/NEWS01/109050082), article in today's Foster's/Citizen.

Additional article (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/N/NH_MISSING_SWIMMER_NHOL-?SITE=NHMAL&SECTION=STATE&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT) also found in this morning's edition of the Manchester, NH Union Leader.

Skip

WINNOCTURN
09-06-2006, 01:34 PM
Correct me if I am wrong! Was there a mention some where that Fish and Game had run out of money for their “Search and Rescue” operations right in the middle of the search for Mr. Surrette? They would have to get money for other areas of their budget. Maybe it would be nice to know how they budget their moneys. Say for instance sponsoring the Don Imus radio broadcast next week for the New Hampshire International Speedway. The other day I was listening to my car radio when I heard a promo for the up and coming NASCAR race and in the middle of the promo was the anouncenmt of who was sponsoring the radio broadcast. There were three sponsors listed with Fish and Game being one. They do not have enough money to do the things they are there for, yet they can sponsor Imus.

WINNOCTURN

upthesaukee
09-06-2006, 10:51 PM
Fish & Game, like any other state agency, has a budget. Part of that budget would be the estimated costs of conducting search and rescue missions. In and or around the time of Mr. Surrette's search, that budgeted money was exhausted. This doesn't mean that they would no longer search for Mr. Surrette or any other people who are lost or missing, simply that the money to fund that continued search or new search would have to come from a different budget account. Many agencies and towns have been stretched with budgetary items due to all the bad weather this spring. Same type problem...budgeted money is exhausted...any additional money must come from a different source. Not really a story here except they have had a much higher than normal expense for search and rescue.

jrc
09-06-2006, 11:58 PM
....There were three sponsors listed with Fish and Game being one. They do not have enough money to do the things they are there for, yet they can sponsor Imus.

WINNOCTURN

There's really no reason for them to advertise, unless it's to sell more licenses and get more money. I don't think they can sponsor Imus just for the fun of it.

Weirs guy
09-07-2006, 05:15 AM
The entire town of Littleton has mandated all town offices turn the thermostats back to 65 deg this winter and stop using some of the police dept's extra cars and cell phones, but somehow I think they'll still stop speeders. :rolleye1:

Mee-n-Mac
09-07-2006, 06:51 AM
I wonder what could be done better next time this happens ? We could kvetch about internecine battling between NHMP and F&G and their budgets and ability to recover someone lost but that won't make a difference. There are limits to manpower, $$s and equipment that these agencies can bring to bear on the problem and that's not about to change. Even the extraordinary efforts of Diver1111 didn't find Mr Surette. So I'm left wondering if "we" couldn't find a way to help when the initial search fails. Perhaps something akin to what happens when a child is lost in the woods, the PD organizes a volunteer force of people to form a search line and walk the woods. I'm not sure in this case, or in general, if more boats with whatever gear (?fishfinders?) would help but maybe someone more skilled in these things than I can offer up some suggestions. Even if it's more and/or different gear perhaps "we" can come up with something. I don't know "the answer" but it seems worth tossing a few ideas around and maybe "we'll" come up with something useful.

jrc
09-07-2006, 08:25 AM
.... Perhaps something akin to what happens when a child is lost in the woods, the PD organizes a volunteer force of people to form a search line and walk the woods....

I think it's different if the missing person is presumed alive or presumed dead. When someone is lost in the woods, they're presumed alive and a massive search makes sense. A volunteer force is easy to form.

This may sound heartless but when someone is presumed dead, then there is a balance between the cost and risks of a search versus the wait and see approach. If Mr. Surrette had floated away and there was a chance he was alive, hundreds of boats would have voluteered to search.

Old Hubbard Rd
09-07-2006, 08:30 AM
There is certainly a differance between looking for a lost child in the woods and looking for a drowning victim. Don't get me wrong. It was very sad about what happened to Mr. Surrette. I can not say that whenever I was in the Broads I took my time and looked around a bit more than I normally would have. From what I could see I think the situation was handled as best as possible.

Mee-n-Mac
09-07-2006, 09:02 AM
I think it's different if the missing person is presumed alive or presumed dead. When someone is lost in the woods, they're presumed alive and a massive search makes sense. A volunteer force is easy to form.

This may sound heartless but when someone is presumed dead, then there is a balance between the cost and risks of a search versus the wait and see approach. If Mr. Surrette had floated away and there was a chance he was alive, hundreds of boats would have voluteered to search.

Absolutely, I agree ! What I'm musing about is whether, after the rescue phase is done and it's now deemed a recovery, there's anything a few volunteers could do to assist. It may be that in most cases there's nothing that can be reasonably done. Perhaps the victims sink to the bottom and become "invisible" to all but the most sophisticated gear (SSS or video or ???). Then again perhaps that's not the case, at least for a few 10's of hours, and extra manpower could help during that time before the victim sinks to the bottom. Perhaps someone here knows someone who can has an inside line on some piece of gear that could help. Guess I'm just beating the bushes to see if any good ideas fall out while people are thinking about the topic.

Weirs guy
09-07-2006, 12:08 PM
Really, really stupid question. What about a commercial fishing net towed behind a vessel?

Mee-n-Mac
09-08-2006, 08:12 AM
Really, really stupid question. What about a commercial fishing net towed behind a vessel?

Sounds like a good thought to me. It may be that not everywhere on the lake is suitable for such a net and it may be that victims sink to the (craggy) bottom before you could haul it out but at least it's an idea, and one that doesn't push the limits of practicality or $$.